WSMR and Birmingham Stations

[bengolding]

Can anyone confirm the official policy with regards to WSMR and tickets to 'Birmingham stations'?

In this case, a friend said he travelled with WSMR last week, using a First Day Single ticket from Gobowen - Birmingham Stns. Rather than the quicker route of changing at Wolves, he wanted to stop at Tame Bridge for a while and later catch a local service to New St. The online journey planners and Trainline are happy with this routing and will sell a ticket for this route. However, the TM insisted he had to alight at Wolves as WSMR don't accept Birmingham Stns tickets southbound via Tame Bridge Parkway.

So who is right here - WSMR or Nationalrail?

 

[clagmonster]

Gobowen, routing point Shrewsbury (by fare check rule, Wrexham fails).
Birmingham group is a routing point.
Map CA:
Shrewsbury-Wolverhampton-Smethwick group-Birmingham group
Shrewsbury-Wolverhampton-Walsall group-Perry Barr-Birmingham group
Bescot is a member of the Walsall group, so travel is valid that way.

Map WM gives the same routes.

 

[glynn80]

Can anyone confirm the official policy with regards to WSMR and tickets to 'Birmingham stations'?

In this case, a friend said he travelled with WSMR last week, using a First Day Single ticket from Gobowen - Birmingham Stns. Rather than the quicker route of changing at Wolves, he wanted to stop at Tame Bridge for a while and later catch a local service to New St. The online journey planners and Trainline are happy with this routing and will sell a ticket for this route. However, the TM insisted he had to alight at Wolves as WSMR don't accept Birmingham Stns tickets southbound via Tame Bridge Parkway.

So who is right here - WSMR or Nationalrail?

Gobowen is a member of both Shrewsbury and Wrexham Groups

Birmingham Stns is obviously a member of the Birmingham Group

Using the fares check rule we can determine the following

Gobowen to Birmingham Stns- FDS- 19.00
Wrexham to Birmingham Stns- FDS- 24.10
Shrewsbury to Birmingham Stns- FDS- 13.10

Wrexham is higher priced than Gobowen fare and is thus discarded as a routeing point, Shrewsbury is lower than the Gobowen fare and can be used as a routeing point.

Shrewsbury to Birmingham Group has maps- CA & WM

Map CA allows travel Shrewsbury to Wolverhampton direct via Telford and then to Birmingham either via Smethwick or via Walsall and Perry Barr.

Map WM allows exactly the same routeing options as map CA.

Now the Walsall Group includes Bescot Stadium so there is no requirement for the train between Wolverhampton and the next routeing point at Perry Barr to travel into Walsall and then back out.

So as far as I can see there is no routeing issue with travelling via Tame Bridge Parkway to get to Birmingham as long as you continue your travel via Perry Barr to get to Birmingham Stns.

So that would require the OP to catch the Walsall to Wolverhampton via New Street services which depart Tame Bridge at 07 and 37 past the hour as opposed to the direct services via Soho East and South junctions at 19 and 46 past the hour (off peak times). As long as they did that they can legally travel that via Tame Bridge Parkway to Birmingham Stns.

 

[bengolding]

Thanks for confirming that.

I wonder how many other passengers have been given misleading info by this WSMR TM over this, who was adament that it was company policy that any southbound ticket marked to Birmingham Stns was not valid by changing at Tame Bridge then to New St via Aston.

With all the heaps and praises being poured over WSMR recently, there are some areas it seems where they must improve upon.

 

[yorkie]

He should have stayed on.

What's the worst they can do? an excess? that'll be £0.00 please!

Is it true that they refuse to accept "Route Birmingham" tickets, despite going through the Birmingham group?

If so, we need a day of mass Route Birmingham / tickets to Birmingham on WSMR services to prove a point I think....

As the TOCs love to say, "Ignorance is no excuse" that applies to you too, WSMR!


Edit: Do you know who the TM was? Most are very friendly I've heard, but apparently there is one who "everyone hates", small, gray hair and South African accent. Was it him? Even some staff describe him as a "jobsworth" apparently. What a shame that one bad apple is spoiling the reputation of an otherwise good company.

 

[Mojo]

So that would require the OP to catch the Walsall to Wolverhampton via New Street services which depart Tame Bridge at 07 and 37 past the hour as opposed to the direct services via Soho East and South junctions at 19 and 46 past the hour (off peak times). As long as they did that they can legally travel that via Tame Bridge Parkway to Birmingham Stns.

OT I know but doesn't this just highlight one of the problems with the RG - how is the average passenger supposed to know that their train goes via Soho?! What if the train was diverted?

 

[glynn80]

OT I know but doesn't this just highlight one of the problems with the RG - how is the average passenger supposed to know that their train goes via Soho?! What if the train was diverted?

But I don't think we are talking about the "average" customer. The average passenger would want to get from A to B. They would have changed at Wolverhampton which has both quicker and more frequent services to Birmingham.

Anyone wanting to travel via Tame Bridge Parkway to get to Birmingham New Street would do so for some other reason, whether that be to travel as far as they can on "decent traction" or whatever it certainly isn't what the "average" passenger would consider.

If the "average" passenger did however want to get this information they could call NRE who could inform them of the services routeing (although anyone with basic knowledge of the area could probably deduce its routeing with common sense).

 

[furryfeet]

what are the rules regarding tickets with "route birmingham" on them ?

e.g. I have a season ticket from Tamworth to London terminals, which is "any permitted route" - this allows travel via Atherstone or Birmingham New St. ( both are shown in the NRES journey planner )

So would such a ticket be valid on WSMR from Tame Bridge Parkway to Marylebone ?

Is there a ticketing way that one can say, start from New St and go to Marylebone via WSMR ?

 

[glynn80]

what are the rules regarding tickets with "route birmingham" on them ?

e.g. I have a season ticket from Tamworth to London terminals, which is "any permitted route" - this allows travel via Atherstone or Birmingham New St. ( both are shown in the NRES journey planner )

So would such a ticket be valid on WSMR from Tame Bridge Parkway to Marylebone ?

Is there a ticketing way that one can say, start from New St and go to Marylebone via WSMR ?

Well anyone travelling from Tame Bridge Parkway to London Terminals can purchase a ticket for the same price as one from Birmingham Stations to London.

But you cannot start at New Street, travel up to Tame Bridge Parkway and then return back through New Street to Marylebone as you would be doubling back through Hamstead station whichever route you took to Tame Bridge Parkway from New Street.

 

[bengolding]

He can't remember the name of the TM, but they were female.

I travelled with WSMR for the first time the other day and was underwhelmed by the experience. See the WSMR thread in the NR General Discussion.

 

[clagmonster]

I don't see any way in which you could travel Tamworth or Birmingham to Tame Bridge without doubling back, other than the one a day Wolves-Walsall direct service. Therefore Furryfeet's journey would not be valid.

 

[yorkie]

You are allowed unlimited doubling back on a season ticket though!

The question isn't "are you doubling back?" the question is, is Tame Bridge on any permitted route between Tamworth and London? If it is, then it's allowed.

If the only mapped routes via Tame Bridge involve double backing then I guess there are no permitted routes via Tame Bridge by default in which case it's not valid, but if there is a mapped route shown that does not involve doubling back, then the route is valid and you can double back.

e.g. York to Leeds is valid via Harrogate or Garforth. A permitted route is via Headingley. If there was a Headingley-York non-stop train via Leeds, you CAN on a season do Leeds-Headingley-(Leeds non-stop)-York, because you are on a valid route.

 

[glynn80]

The question isn't "are you doubling back?" the question is, is Tame Bridge on any permitted route between Tamworth and London? If it is, then it's allowed.

If the only mapped routes via Tame Bridge involve double backing then I guess there are no permitted routes via Tame Bridge by default in which case it's not valid, but if there is a mapped route shown that does not involve doubling back, then the route is valid and you can double back.

Well the question is "Are you doubling back" when trying to determine permitted routes.

In this case Tamworth Group to London Group allows maps TV & TV+WM neither of which allow you to get to Tame Bridge without then again doubling back via Birmingham New Street when returning south as it doesn't allow you to get to Tame Bridge from the north only from the south, going Tamworth to New Street and then up to Tame Bridge via Wolverhampton and Walsall or direct via Perry Barr.

Worse than this however is that is does not allow travel into Marylebone whatsoever, only into Euston on map TV.

So to answer the question a Tamworth to London season has no permitted routes where travel on a WSMR is allowed.

 

[paul1609]

As I've previously pointed out on here before WSMR as an open access operator are not obliged to accept interavailable tickets. They mostly do as they receive revenue in the form of an ORCATs distribution. In the case of route Birmingham tickets WSMR do not receive any allocation of income (South of Wolverhampton) as they do not call at any Birmingham Stations so they have decided not to accept interavailable route birmingham tickets.
Personally I think that it is a bit mean to apply this to Wolverhampton to Tame Bridge but as has been said that route is unlikely to be taken by a normal.

 

[clagmonster]

National Rail tickets
The normal range of National Rail tickets is valid on Wrexham & Shropshire’s services.

If you’re travelling to a destination beyond Wrexham & Shropshire’s network, you won’t need to make any special arrangements or get two tickets. So if you need to travel across London, or you want to change at Banbury for Oxford, Reading or the South Coast, it couldn’t be easier.

And you can use Wrexham & Shropshire for local journeys too. If you’ve got a season ticket, or you buy a cheap day return for a day out locally, we accept all these tickets.

The company website advertises the fact that all National Rail tickets are valid on there services, which include Shrewsbury area to Birmingham. The NXEC ticket selling website agrees with this. I suspect that this incident was just human area by a guard who isn't farmiliar with the routing guide. If you either book a seat reservation, get print outs of the relevent pages from the website/routing guide or both you should be OK. Alternatively, you could contact Wrexham & Shropshire with details of when you travelled, and hopefully they will take remedial action, ie brief their guards and any TTIs that they might have.

 

[WSMRMD]

Having read the above I thought it might be useful to give you some direct feedback!

Firstly in respect of travel to Birmingham from north of Wolverhampton and changing at Tame Bridge, we do recognise that this can be a valid route and therefore the Train Manager on this occasion was mistaken. As was observed earlier it is difficult for the team to all be experts in all the various routing quirks - but I will ensure that this is fed back to the team for future reference.

In respect of "Route Birmingham" tickets to and from London, these are not valid on our services. This was not a Wrexham & Shropshire decision, and in fact we queried this position with the RSP (Rail Settlement Plan) team at ATOC. They confirmed that this was not a valid route and that we were not entitled to any share of the revenue from these tickets - so I am sure you will understand why we are very keen to ensure that passengers do not use these tickets on our services and purchase a valid ticket instead!

In respect of acceptance of "Any Permitted Route Tickets" we are a member of RSP and as such we are required to honour all tickets that are of relevant route on our services - the fact that we are an Open Access company is therefore irrelevant.

Kind Regards

Andy Hamilton
Managing Director
Wrexham & Shropshire

 

[Geezertronic]

If that was genuinly posted by Andy Hamilton and not a member of staff on his behalf, then I am very impressed and by reading a forum such as this it shows that the company does take onboard customers views and has their customers best interests at heart.

Other MDs should take a leaf out of Mr Hamilton's book!

 

[merlodlliw]

If that was genuinly posted by Andy Hamilton and not a member of staff on his behalf, then I am very impressed and by reading a forum such as this it shows that the company does take onboard customers views and has their customers best interests at heart.

Other MDs should take a leaf out of Mr Hamilton's book!

I am sure it was the man ,Andy Hamilton was at the Shrewsbury/Chester
rail users Association meeting on Monday in Wrexham and gave a very
interesting talk on the first year of W/S without staff present.

 

[yorkie]

In respect of "Route Birmingham" tickets to and from London, these are not valid on our services. This was not a Wrexham & Shropshire decision, and in fact we queried this position with the RSP (Rail Settlement Plan) team at ATOC. They confirmed that this was not a valid route and that we were not entitled to any share of the revenue from these tickets - so I am sure you will understand why we are very keen to ensure that passengers do not use these tickets on our services and purchase a valid ticket instead!

Thanks for responding personally to this. However I am certain ATOC are cheating you out of money. This is not just my view but the view of others who have studied the Routeing Guide in detail.

Firstly, if you take the trains that go via Birmingham New Street, there can be no question whatsoever that 'Route Birmingham' tickets are valid on these services. Obviously it is difficult to tell from the timetable which services are booked that way, but that's irrelevant - they're valid, no question.

Admittedly the majority of WSMR services go via Aston, so on these it may be considered questionable. However Aston is a member of the Birmingham Group for Routeing Guide purposes!

See http://www.atoc.org/rsp/_downloads/Routeing_Guide/instructions.htm#group%20stations

BIRMINGHAM GROUP

Aston
Birmingham Moor Street
Birmingham New Street
Birmingham Snow Hill
Duddeston

There is no requirement for the train to call at a Birmingham Group station - merely to pass through. Equally WSMR do not call at High Wycombe, but as the trains are booked that way then those tickets are valid.

In the case of Shrewsbury-London, the Route Birmingham fare is valid on the WSMR route. Taking SVR fares only, they are priced as follows:

£41.00 WSMR Trains Only
£46.00 Birmingham
£49.20 Warmster-Salsbry
£57.50 Any Permitted

Note that the ticket valid via Warminster & Salisbury is also valid via Birmingham as it is priced higher than the via Birmingham fare.

The Any Permitted is valid via Stafford (Map LM). Clearly the Route Birmingham is appropriate for most passengers who want to go a direct route without going via Warminster or Stafford which are out of the way.

If a passenger travels on WSMR with a Route Birmingham one way then are they currently being charged an excess of £5.75? (57.50-46.00/2) This seems a waste of time for WSMR to collect such small sums when they should be allocated the money in the first place! If the passenger refused to pay on the basis that the train went through a Birmingham Group station then no court in the land would argue with that to be honest.

Most passengers doing Shrews to London will get Route Birmingham and would (rightly) expect to be able to use it on WSMR and WSMR should get revenue from those tickets rather than have to charge tiny excesses (which just frustrates passengers and doesn't gain the company much!)

I suggest WSMR go back to ATOC and argue their case!

Others agree: Jonathan Morton , Barry Salter , John@Home

To be honest those people probably understand the Routeing Guide better than some staff at ATOC!

 

[TDK]

As I've previously pointed out on here before WSMR as an open access operator are not obliged to accept interavailable tickets. They mostly do as they receive revenue in the form of an ORCATs distribution. In the case of route Birmingham tickets WSMR do not receive any allocation of income (South of Wolverhampton) as they do not call at any Birmingham Stations so they have decided not to accept interavailable route birmingham tickets.
Personally I think that it is a bit mean to apply this to Wolverhampton to Tame Bridge but as has been said that route is unlikely to be taken by a normal.

WSMR are not permitted topick up at Wolverhampton or Birmingham New Street, as far as I am aware "route Birmingham" tickets to London are not accepted on WSMR services.

 

[John @ home]

WSMR are not permitted to pick up at Wolverhampton or Birmingham New Street, as far as I am aware "route Birmingham" tickets to London are not accepted on WSMR services.

I think this misses the point. WSMR sell, and have to accept, tickets in accordance with the National Conditions of Carriage. These state:
13. The route you are entitled to take ...
(d) The use of some tickets may be restricted to trains which take:
(i) routes passing through, or avoiding, particular locations; or
(ii) the most direct route.
These restrictions will be shown on the ticket.

The corollary of this condition is that if a restriction is not shown on the ticket, it does not apply and the ticket must be accepted (on a permitted route).

Thus when Virgin run blockade busters from Coventry to Euston via High Wycombe they must accept tickets routed via High Wycombe.

Similarly, WSMR must accept route Birmingham tickets on their trains if the journey on WSMR forms part of a permitted route between the origin and the destination on the ticket, because all WSMR trains pass through one of the five stations which comprise Birmingham Group.

Thus WSMR must accept a £46 SVR Shrewsbury - London Terminals route Birmingham ticket (in addition to the £56.50 SVR route Any Permitted ticket) because the train passes through Birmingham Group and the whole WSMR route between Marylebone and Shrewsbury is shown on maps GC+LM, which is defined as a permitted combination of maps between Shrewsbury and London in the current April 2009 issue of the National Routeing Guide.

yorkie has provided the evidence for this to the MD of WSMR on this forum and asked him to reconsider WSMR's current position regarding route Birmingham tickets. We await his response.

Once it has been established that WSMR will accept tickets in accordance with the National Conditions of Carriage and the National Routeing Guide, then a secondary issue arises as to why WSMR may be receiving no revenue from some tickets which it must accept. That is for WSMR to pursue, not for us.

John

 

[87015]

Thus when Virgin run blockade busters from Coventry to Euston via High Wycombe they must accept tickets routed via High Wycombe.

Only they don't as half the Euston barrier "Virgins Finest staff" don't allow them through.

 

[snowhill]

I am a bystander in all this (never been employed on the railway) but a great admirer of WSMR - and Chiltern.

However, it seems to me that this discussion of Routeing via Birmingham, in relation to New Street, is irrelavant as whilst the trains pass through the station in my experience they dont stop and if they did I imagine it would be very unlikely that the doors would be unlocked.

The same would surely apply to Virgin blockbuasters via High Wycombe

 

[glynn80]

I am a bystander in all this (never been employed on the railway) but a great admirer of WSMR - and Chiltern.

However, it seems to me that this discussion of Routeing via Birmingham, in relation to New Street, is irrelavant as whilst the trains pass through the station in my experience they dont stop and if they did I imagine it would be very unlikely that the doors would be unlocked.

The same would surely apply to Virgin blockbuasters via High Wycombe

Well being a bystander seems to of meant that you have not grasped any of the relevant facts within the situation.

Read yorkie's and john@home's posts within the topic which clearly explain why the tickets are valid.

If you want to learn further about the routeing guide you can find all the information on the ATOC website.

 

[John @ home]

it seems to me that this discussion of Routeing via Birmingham, in relation to New Street, is irrelavant as whilst the trains pass through the station in my experience they dont stop and if they did I imagine it would be very unlikely that the doors would be unlocked.

The same would surely apply to Virgin blockbusters via High Wycombe

Stopping, or unlocking the doors, is not relevant.

from http://www.atoc.org/rsp/_downloads/Routeing_Guide/instructions.htm:
HOW TO USE THE NATIONAL ROUTEING GUIDE
HOW TO DETERMINE PERMITTED ROUTES
Where the fare specifies a particular route, you may choose only those routes listed in the Guide which pass through the station shown in the route description.

Thus in the Virgin example, a through train passes through High Wycombe so it's a permitted route.

For the WSMR example, we have to look at the definition of the word station. From the same source:
GROUP STATIONS
The stations listed at the bottom of this page are grouped together to improve interchange between trains by offering customers access to a wider choice of train services and station facilities. A customer may travel via any station in a group, including doubling back, provided that the group is on one of the permitted routes between their origin and destination stations. This extended availability is for interchange purposes only and does not apply where the origin or destination stations are part of a group.
BIRMINGHAM GROUP
Aston Birmingham Moor Street Birmingham New Street Birmingham Snow Hill Duddeston

All WSMR trains pass through one of these stations so, by definition, they pass through Birmingham. Thus a ticket such as Shrewsbury - London Terminals route Birmingham must be permitted on WSMR as long as the whole journey is by a permitted route. In this case, maps GC+LM in the National Routeing Guide show that it is.

John

 

[Geezertronic]

Being another bystander, I assume the WSMR trains go via Aston/Duddeston and down the Stechford line to avoid Birmingham New Street?

 

[yorkie]

Only they don't as half the Euston barrier "Virgins Finest staff" don't allow them through.

Get their names then! When is this next happening? If I'm in London I'll take a visit...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

However, it seems to me that this discussion of Routeing via Birmingham, in relation to New Street, is irrelavant as whilst the trains pass through the station in my experience they dont stop and if they did I imagine it would be very unlikely that the doors would be unlocked.

I don't want to sound rude but please read before posting!

Basically you have just made up a rule. That rule does not exist.

Trains do not have to call, and if they did then fast Chiltern trains would not be valid on 'High Wycombe' tickets and fast Virgin services and Sleeper services would not be valid on 'Route Lancaster' tickets - but they are valid, because it's the route that matters not the calling points.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Being another bystander, I assume the WSMR trains go via Aston/Duddeston and down the Stechford line to avoid Birmingham New Street?

Yes, but the first trains of the day go via Birmingham New Street.

My own opinion is this:-

Anyone wishing to use a Route Birmingham on WSMR or a Route High Wycombe ticket on a diverted Virgin train via High Wycombe should refuse to pay an excess. If necessary make them fill in an unpaid fare notice and refuse to pay it. They won't take it to court because of the terrible publicity they'd get, however if they did you'd win the case because, clearly, the trains go via the specified route. If the guard or RPI says that's incorrect, get them to make a statement to that effect and post it here so we can rip it to shreds.

That's not legal advice but that's my own opinion, I am not a lawyer.

I am up for a day of mass Route Birmingham and/or High Wycombe tickets to prove a point if anyone else is.

They ARE valid, end of story.

The revenue issue is not of any concern to the passenger.

For example, NXEC don't get much (if any) revenue from a Huntingdon to London Season, and they don't get any from a Peterborough to Huntingdon day return. But the combination of those tickets are valid on NXEC services whether NXEC like it or not, and they have to accept them even if they get no money from them. That's the rules and the TOCs have to abide by them.

 

[John @ home]

Being another bystander, I assume the WSMR trains go via Aston/Duddeston and down the Stechford line to avoid Birmingham New Street?

They take various routes but they all pass through a station which is a member of Birmingham Group.

John

 

[Mojo]

They take various routes but they all pass through a station which is a member of Birmingham Group.

Yep, this is correct. For anyone who wants the routes - some go via New Street and on past Tyseley & Solihulll to Leamington Spa whilst others go through Aston, Stechford, International Coventry and Kenilworth to Leamington Spa.

 

[glynn80]

They take various routes but they all pass through a station which is a member of Birmingham Group.

John

There are only two routes WSMR use to get between Tame Bridge Parkway and Banbury.

Tame Bridge Parkway- Soho Junction- Birmingham New Street- Tyseley- Banbury
(passes through Birmingham New Street as a member of the Birmingham Group).

Tame Bridge Parkway- Aston- Stechford- Coventry- Leamington Spa- Banbury
(passes through Aston as a member of the Birmingham Group).