• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

WSMR and Birmingham Stations

Status
Not open for further replies.

me123

Established Member
Joined
9 Jul 2007
Messages
8,510
... But the TOC won't accept the ticket; Andy Hamilton the MD of WSMR has stated above that it is invalid on their trains, although this decision was made not by them but by ATOC.

The worst they can do is try to excess you, not a new ticket - where do you get that idea from?

Just assumed that that would be the case, but if they'll excess, all the better. Still, a pathetic little protest won't really do anything. I'd even be surprised if the press were interested in a few rail enthusiasts having a temper tantrum about a ticket.

WSMR may be in the wrong, but only because ATOC cannot understand their own routeing guide. Why should WSMR accept tickets that they've been told not to, and that they won't get any revenue from? What this will do is give WSMR a bad image (which could well put them out of business) and fails to address the real cause; ATOC.
 
Last edited:
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

clagmonster

Established Member
Joined
8 Jun 2005
Messages
2,442
Dan Atki, your post certainly makes interesting reading, and does address one of my questions on the matter. However, with the Gravely Hill-Witton ticket, surely the intention is that the not Birmingham ticket doesn't touch New St, and the any permitted ticket does. Which implies to me that not Birmingham is intended to imply 'not Birmingham stations', rather than 'not Birmingham group'. If this is correct, then surely the converse applies to route Birmingham tickets, meaning they should actually be'route Birmingham stations', rather than 'route Birmingham group', thereby making the routing guide badly written and not actually conveying the intended message.
 

dan_atki

Established Member
Joined
1 Nov 2006
Messages
1,879
Dan Atki, your post certainly makes interesting reading, and does address one of my questions on the matter. However, with the Gravely Hill-Witton ticket, surely the intention is that the not Birmingham ticket doesn't touch New St, and the any permitted ticket does. Which implies to me that not Birmingham is intended to imply 'not Birmingham stations', rather than 'not Birmingham group'. If this is correct, then surely the converse applies to route Birmingham tickets, meaning they should actually be'route Birmingham stations', rather than 'route Birmingham group', thereby making the routing guide badly written and not actually conveying the intended message.

I had the exact same thought to be completely honest.

The difference in prices between the Not Birmingham and Any Permitted in that particular case is minimal, although that's not to say it's not important!

I'm of the belief that the Routeing Guide is perfectly written* so routeings are done via Groups rather than Stations (as I said it seems silly to use a group made for fares purposes for routeing!).

I think with that particular ticket, you are correct in saying the intention is it is not used via New Street but the routeing guide says such a ticket may be used there...

It's obvious they are relying on people not to know such intricacies. Just like flows that have Off-Peak fares with a restiction code meaning travel cannot be undertaken between 0100 and 0400 (despite no trains on that route at that time). I wonder how many people made the mistake of purchasing an Anytime at 0700...

*I'm sure ATOC must think this (otherwise they'd rewrite it!) and as such I must believe this if I'm using the document to determine valid routeings...
 

Max

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Administrator
Joined
8 Jun 2005
Messages
5,455
Location
Cardiff
Surely the validity of the said ticket is completely unquestionable on the services that actually run via Birmingham New Street?
 

yorkie

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Administrator
Joined
6 Jun 2005
Messages
67,429
Location
Yorkshire
... But the TOC won't accept the ticket; Andy Hamilton the MD of WSMR has stated above that it is invalid on their trains, although this decision was made not by them but by ATOC.
That doesn't stop it being valid.


Just assumed that that would be the case, but if they'll excess, all the better. Still, a pathetic little protest won't really do anything. I'd even be surprised if the press were interested in a few rail enthusiasts having a temper tantrum about a ticket.
How is it "pathetic"? Northern take people to court over 30p, and these fares are approx 10 pounds (5 each way) higher than they should be, so why should they be allowed to get away with it?
...
WSMR may be in the wrong,
may?
... but only because ATOC cannot understand their own routeing guide.
tough!
... Why should WSMR accept tickets that they've been told not to,
They should accept valid tickets, and have they been told to accept WMDRs or PRIV? No but they do! Yes, they allow PRIV pax on at 75% off or even free while charging unsuspecting passengers who don't know their rights extra money despite being valid. That aint right.
... and that they won't get any revenue from?
So what? NXEC don't get any cash out of Huntington - Peterborough seasons plus a Huntington to London CDR, but they are compelled to accept them between Peterborough and London. So why should WSMR be any different? We are told that any direct train that is overtaken by another direct train gets no revenue for the through journey, but that doesn't mean passengers have to stump up more cash does it? A FCC train PBO-KGX that is overtaken by NXEC gets zero allocation of PBO-KGX Any Permitted ticket sales revenue, by your logic FCC would charge people to use that service as they get no revenue from that train. How does that make sense?
... What this will do is give WSMR a bad image (which could well put them out of business) and fails to address the real cause; ATOC.
It's WSMRs choice, but I think they will back down.
 

dan_atki

Established Member
Joined
1 Nov 2006
Messages
1,879
WSMR may be in the wrong, but only because ATOC cannot understand their own routeing guide. Why should WSMR accept tickets that they've been told not to, and that they won't get any revenue from? What this will do is give WSMR a bad image (which could well put them out of business) and fails to address the real cause; ATOC.

It's not so much a case of being told not to accept tickets, it's more a vicious cycle. ATOC says they will get no revenue so they decided not to accept them. Sort of like Tesco selling Sainsbury's milk and Tesco making no money from it - they wouldn't allow it and would want people to buy Tesco milk so they get the money they deserve.

ATOC have very clearly made a fundamental error here. Either they need to back down on the decision to WSMR or the Routeing Guide needs rewritten (and preferably completely rewritten rather than a minor update).

Simplest thing we could do is all e-mail ATOC asking for their stance and referring them to this thread so they know ours.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
They should accept valid tickets, and have they been told to accept WMDRs or PRIV? No but they do! Yes, they allow PRIV pax on at 75% off or even free while charging unsuspecting passengers who don't know their rights extra money despite being valid. That aint right.

That's very interesting after what I read about Open Access and Priv the other day: http://www.atoc.org/rst/_download/special_offer/Web_OAO 230408.pdf.
 

yorkie

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Administrator
Joined
6 Jun 2005
Messages
67,429
Location
Yorkshire
Ok, Ok but to the travelling public there will be confusion
Exactly, so if they are told to pay an excess they will probably pay it.<(

I also want to find out if WSMR are excesing (as they should if its an invalid route - not that it is, but if they believe it is, then that's what they should be doing) or if they are, as claimed earlier, actually charging for whole new tickets. If the latter then I will have even more serious words to say on the subject....
 

me123

Established Member
Joined
9 Jul 2007
Messages
8,510
If a ticket is deemed not valid by ATOC, WSMR should not be accepting it. As I've said, it's ATOC who are in the wrong. Not WSMR. This protest will make everyone look rather silly. Go ahead if you want, though.
 

dan_atki

Established Member
Joined
1 Nov 2006
Messages
1,879
I also want to find out if WSMR are excesing (as they should if its an invalid route - not that it is, but if they believe it is, then that's what they should be doing)

I'd love to have the faith that they'd be doing that but for some reason I don't.

Now all the ticket types that have both a Route WSMR Trains Only and Route Birmingham available have the price of the WSMR less than the Birmingham - so a zero excess.

I'm not sure how ORCATS would work with excesses (maybe glynn80 can answer this one with his research?). Would we have:

1) Still no revenue for WSMR as the original ticket is 'Route Birmingham' and no excess fare has been taken as such;
2) Some revenue for WSMR for issuing the excess; or
3) All revenue* from the original ticket to WSMR as their service has been used over the more expensive as proved by the excess?

*In the case of Chirk to London an extra £130 than their own ticket...
 

yorkie

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Administrator
Joined
6 Jun 2005
Messages
67,429
Location
Yorkshire
If a ticket is deemed not valid by ATOC, WSMR should not be accepting it. As I've said, it's ATOC who are in the wrong. Not WSMR. This protest will make everyone look rather silly. Go ahead if you want, though.
Where is it quoted that ATOC deem it invalid? Indeed by ATOCs own rules it is deemed valid.
 

me123

Established Member
Joined
9 Jul 2007
Messages
8,510
ATOC have stated to WSMR that the ticket is not valid. I can agree with you that it is wrong; in fact, I've read most of the posts on this thread and I don't think anyone could disagree when the facts are laid out in such a way.

However, ATOC have stated to WSMR that the ticket is not valid. See the MD's post earlier on in this thread. ATOC effectively decide on the validity of tickets, so if they say no I don't think you can blame WSMR for also saying no! Of course, as I've said above, this means that ATOC are wrong unless there's a hidden rule or guide somewhere, but that's wrong for a whole other reason!

So, to conclude, if ATOC have told WSMR it's not a valid route, I think WSMR are within their rights not to accept this ticket. As a result, I don't think it's fair moaning at WSMR and you should probably vent your anger in ATOC's direction. Has anyone other than WSMR even tried writing to them yet?
 

yorkie

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Administrator
Joined
6 Jun 2005
Messages
67,429
Location
Yorkshire
No, they're not within their rights, and they are hiding behind ATOC which is not right. ATOCs rules state the ticket is valid, and we are going round in circles - see my post above as I'm not repeating it again.

WSMR want it to be invalid because, let's face it, who'd pay £5 less to be restricted to just WSMR? So it's a cosy situation between WSMR and ATOC.

ATOC are there mainly to protect the interests of the franchised TOCs, and they don't want to be giving any cash away to WSMR.

So it's a rather 'convenient' situation for the organisations concerned... unless passengers fight back, then they'll sweat. And that's what we need to do - fight back.
 

glynn80

Established Member
Joined
1 Jun 2008
Messages
1,666
That's very interesting after what I read about Open Access and Priv the other day: http://www.atoc.org/rst/_download/special_offer/Web_OAO 230408.pdf.

WSMR have publically stated that they are accepting Privilege Discounted tickets and advertised as such in Railnews, a while ago.

I'd love to have the faith that they'd be doing that but for some reason I don't.

Now all the ticket types that have both a Route WSMR Trains Only and Route Birmingham available have the price of the WSMR less than the Birmingham - so a zero excess.

Now there is another very interesting issue here.

The Route WSMR Trains Only is a "TOC Specific" fare, whereas the Route Birmingham is a "Route Specific" fare. Now the question is, can you actually excess a TOC Specific ticket into a Route Specific ticket and vice versa?

This is not as simple as it seems.

If I held a Route WSMR Trains Only ticket, boarded a Virgin Trains service to Birmingham and asked to be upgraded to the Any Permitted fare, I would be treated as having boarded the train without a valid ticket, as stated in the FRPP

FRPP said:
The validity of some tickets is restricted to services of a particular Train Company. Where the 'route' shown on the ticket specifies a particular Train Company name(s) for the main part of the journey it cannot be used on any other Train Company's service for that part of the journey unless authorised for this purpose (e.g. train service disruption).

No excess fare is charged and customers should purchase a new ticket to travel on the train.

OK, so that is one scenario cleared up, now excessing a Route Birmingham fare into a Route WSMR Only fare.

This is not so clear cut.

The FRPP does not list this as an acceptable excess, as such. The closest you really have is a Change of Route, but this does not really fit the scenario seeing as Route WSMR Only is a TOC restriction rather than a Route restriction.

In my opinion and interpretation of the FRPP, you cannot excess a ticket into a TOC specific ticket if it previously was not restricted to a TOC.

I'm not sure how ORCATS would work with excesses (maybe glynn80 can answer this one with his research?). Would we have:

1) Still no revenue for WSMR as the original ticket is 'Route Birmingham' and no excess fare has been taken as such;
2) Some revenue for WSMR for issuing the excess; or
3) All revenue* from the original ticket to WSMR as their service has been used over the more expensive as proved by the excess?

*In the case of Chirk to London an extra £130 than their own ticket...

Excess fare revenue distribution is not calculated using ORCATS at all.

In the Ticketing and Settlement Agreement, the following is listed under Excess Fares

TSA said:
EXCESS FARES

(1) Debit received by the retailing Operator

An Operator which Sells an Excess Fare will receive a Debit in respect of that Sale. The amount of the Debit is the amount charged to the Purchaser of the Excess Fare (including any applicable VAT).

(2) Credits received by carrying Operators

Each Operator which has a Percentage Allocation for an Excess Fare will receive a Credit in respect of each Sale of that Excess Fare, whether the Sale is by an Operator, an ATOC Travel Agent, an ITX Travel Agent or an Approved Third Party, or is to an ATOC Self-ticketing Licensee.

(3) Calculation of the Credit

The Credit to be received by such an Operator is:-

(a) the Operator’s Percentage Allocation for the Excess Fare (determined in
accordance with Part III of this Chapter);

(b) multiplied by the amount charged to the Purchaser of the Excess Fare
(including any applicable VAT).

If anyone is wondering how an Operator's Percentage Allocation is calculated in 3.a), the TSA explains as follows.

TSA said:
3. Excess Fares
The relevant Operator’s Manual allocation, if it has one. Otherwise zero.

Very complicated, yes! Hopefully above is enough for you to get through at the moment, if you have any more questions about the above dan_atki, just ask and I'll try to answer them as best I can. At the moment I am still trying to decipher the exact procedures for manual allocations of fares.

From reading above, it would seem that there would need to be a relevant manual allocation for every flow in the country for the TOCs to maximise their revenue. If no manual allocations existed, the issuer of the excess would receive the full debit for the issue of the excess fare and the other TOCs who may also obliged to accept the excess, receive nothing at all.
 
Last edited:

yorkie

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Administrator
Joined
6 Jun 2005
Messages
67,429
Location
Yorkshire
I think we're all agreed that if WSMR are excessing then the correct excess would be £5.75

£57.50 (Any Permitted) - £46.00 (Birmingham) = £11.50 / 2 (for 1 way) = £5.75 each way for an Off Peak Return with no railcard held. This is reduced to £3.80 with a railcard.

However the Route Birmingham tickets are valid anyway, and for the sake of £5.75 WSMR are going to get themselves bad publicity and are acting illegally.
 

dan_atki

Established Member
Joined
1 Nov 2006
Messages
1,879
Ah thanks for that - particularly with the lack of excessing in the first place!

Let's assume for a moment that the 'Route Birmingham' ticket can actually be excessed to the 'Route WSMR Trains only', to make sure I've understood the excess distribution.

You're on board, and ask for an excess - let's also say the excess costs more than £0.00 for simplicity's sake, and it costs £10.00.

WSMR charge £10.00 to the customer, which presumably goes to their accounts office every so often. Step 2, by the very nature of the TOC specific ticket, implies that WSMR would get 100% (i.e. the whole £10.00) as they could be the only carrying operator for the ticket. (Incidentally, is this step similar in idea to how ORCATS distribution works? An excess available for use on more than one operator has the same/similar distribution percentages? Or would 100% go to the operator of the service if issued on-board and, as such, allocations are different for each individual excess (even if between the same locations)? I'm assuming the former as it makes things a lot easier in the scheme of things!).

It would seem step 3 is combining steps 1 and 2. The allocation percentage multiplied by the amount of the excess. So, in this hypothetical example WSMR would receive £10.00.

Based on this, because the excess in my above example (if it were to exist) was £0.00, WSMR would get £0.00 and still all of the Route Birmingham allocation would go to Virgin (or maybe including Chiltern and/or London Midland in small percentages too)?

I can see now why even if the excess is possible they would not issue it, sooner wishing you to purchase a new ticket they'd actually get revenue from!

Based on your last paragraph it would seem it's in a TOC's best interests to ensure they have an allocation for every flow they could accept excesses on, otherwise they'd get nothing at all... Interesting!

Let me go through another (more real!) example to make sure I've grasped things properly.
I hold a London Terminals to Southampton Central Route Hassocks/Horsham Off Peak Return. I wish to travel with SWT and excess the ticket to an Any Permitted.

Originally I'll assume that most (if not all) of the original £28.00 would go to Southern.

The nice guard on the train takes my £7.20. End of their shift it gets cashed up and soon enough finds itself in SWT Accounts.

SWT have a percentage allocation for this that determines how much of the £7.20 they can take - presumably all of it in this case.

Now I think about it and how greedy of SN this would be and unfair on SWT - I'm assuming that the percentages are not confined to a 0-100% range? The vast majority of the £35.20 Any Permitted SVR would go to SWT if I was to buy that ticket in the first place! For them to only get £7.20 out of an excess would seem wrong.

This would then presumably allow the full £35.20 to be distributed as it normally would (so the percentage allocations would have to be different from ORCATS and also have to change every Fares Period so as to distribute revenue correctly)? Or have I gone completely weird with my reasoning? :oops:

You're right - very complicated indeed!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I think we're all agreed that if WSMR are excessing then the correct excess would be £5.75

Ahhhh of course!!! I've rather stupidly been getting hung up with the WSMR Trains Only route and forgetting all about 'Any Permitted' even existing!! :oops: On that note, it's about time my overworked, confused brain was given a rest!
 

OwlMan

Established Member
Joined
25 Jun 2008
Messages
3,206
Location
Bedworth, Warwickshire
Slightly off topic but still about a Shrewsbury - London ticket. If you buy a route Birmingham ticket there is an easement in the routeing Guide:
"030118 Journeys routed Birmingham may travel via Crewe. This easements applies in both directions"
This easement has no notes or further details to say what it refers to.
Can I take this literally and travel from Shrewsbury to London via Crewe and the Trent Valley on a route Birmingham ticket?
I can not see any reason why not, following the instructions in the routeing guide, as the easement exists.
Anybody got any ideas whether I am right?


Peter
 

John @ home

Established Member
Joined
1 Mar 2008
Messages
5,148
Slightly off topic but still about a Shrewsbury - London ticket. If you buy a route Birmingham ticket there is an easement in the routeing Guide:
"030118 Journeys routed Birmingham may travel via Crewe. This easements applies in both directions"
This easement has no notes or further details to say what it refers to.
Can I take this literally and travel from Shrewsbury to London via Crewe and the Trent Valley on a route Birmingham ticket?

What a very interesting question!

I can think of two possible interpretations:

1. Journeys routed Birmingham may travel via Crewe instead of Birmingham.
This would allow the Shrewsbury - Wem - Crewe - Tamworth - London route you refer to.

2. Journeys routed Birmingham may travel via Crewe as well as Birmingham.
This would allow Shrewsbury - Wem - Crewe - Penkridge - Birmingham - London.

Which is right? I would guess the second one because that does not breach the NRG instruction that:

National Routeing Guide Section A said:
Where the fare specifies a particular route, you may choose only those routes listed in the Guide which pass through the station shown in the route description.

John
 

WSMRMD

Member
Joined
30 Apr 2009
Messages
15
Just to be clear on our policy:

- Route Birmingham tickets are not valid on our services. No matter how skilled you are in reading the Routing Guides, RSP are the arbartors of this process and therefore for as long as they say it is an invalid ticket - it remains just that, an invalid ticket. If you believe this to be wrong then there is an appeal process that can be entered into with RSP.

- If you try to travel with a Route Birmingham ticket we will ask you to leave the service at Wolverhampton or Tame Bridge, or to purchase a valid ticket. The new ticket will have to be purchased in full as it is not possible to excess a ticket that is not valid for that route to one that is as the allocations of fares would be incorrect to the relevant TOC's. We will recommend that people return to the place of purchase and claim a refund from them for a wrongly sold ticket.

Finally to be clear to the poster that suggested that this is a cosy arrangment between WSMR and ATOC, that is completely wrong and would not be the case for two reasons - firstly ATOC have a duty to represent all their members including Virgin, Arriva and London Midland who would all have something to say if we were getting preferencial treatment, and secondly WSMR would receive a significant pot of money as our allocation of Route Birmingham tickets from Shrewsbury and therefore why would we artificially create a situation where they are not valid.

Kind Regards

Andy Hamilton
Managing Director
Wrexham & Shropshire
 

clagmonster

Established Member
Joined
8 Jun 2005
Messages
2,442
The Wrexham & Shropshire website links to the National Conditions of Carriage, therefore I assume that they apply. These state, in clause 13 that a ticket may be excessed use a route other than that stated in the conditions of carriage on the payment of an excess fare.
 

yorkie

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Administrator
Joined
6 Jun 2005
Messages
67,429
Location
Yorkshire
Just to be clear on our policy:

- Route Birmingham tickets are not valid on our services. No matter how skilled you are in reading the Routing Guides, RSP are the arbartors of this process and therefore for as long as they say it is an invalid ticket - it remains just that, an invalid ticket. If you believe this to be wrong then there is an appeal process that can be entered into with RSP.
Nope, this is wrong, perhaps you can explain where in the RG does it support your position?

We have explained our position, so it's over to you to explain where in the RG it supports your position...

- If you try to travel with a Route Birmingham ticket we will ask you to leave the service at Wolverhampton or Tame Bridge, or to purchase a valid ticket. The new ticket will have to be purchased in full as it is not possible to excess a ticket that is not valid for that route to one that is as the allocations of fares would be incorrect to the relevant TOC's. We will recommend that people return to the place of purchase and claim a refund from them for a wrongly sold ticket.
This is totally and utterly wrong. Where are you getting this information from?!

If I was to buy a Route Birmingham, and get it excessed to an Any Permitted, would you refuse that too?

The hole is getting deeper...
Finally to be clear to the poster that suggested that this is a cosy arrangment between WSMR and ATOC, that is completely wrong and would not be the case for two reasons - firstly ATOC have a duty to represent all their members including Virgin, Arriva and London Midland who would all have something to say if we were getting preferencial treatment,
Nail hit on the head - you are getting un-preferential treatment!
and secondly WSMR would receive a significant pot of money as our allocation of Route Birmingham tickets from Shrewsbury and therefore why would we artificially create a situation where they are not valid.
You know people won't pay £5 less for a WSMR only, but if you create the false impression that they have to buy an Any Permitted fare then the WSMR fare looks rather more attractive.
 

glynn80

Established Member
Joined
1 Jun 2008
Messages
1,666
Just to be clear on our policy:

- Route Birmingham tickets are not valid on our services. No matter how skilled you are in reading the Routing Guides, RSP are the arbartors of this process and therefore for as long as they say it is an invalid ticket - it remains just that, an invalid ticket. If you believe this to be wrong then there is an appeal process that can be entered into with RSP.

RSP may be the arbators in these situations, but this is irrelevant in the passenger's perspective of the situation. In this thread it has been clearly outlined by numerous people who are highly knowledgeable on the intricacies of the routeing guide (with many who work in the rail industry themselves), of the reasons why the Route Birmingham tickets are valid. The routeing guide does have an appeals process if a passenger feels a particular route should be valid but has been omitted from the guide. This is not the scenario we are faced with in this situation, the routeing guide states the ticket is valid (I have seen no official evidence contrary to this) but RSP have informed yourselves that it isn't. That is an appeal that you yourselves need to lodge with RSP and should not involve the passenger.

If you wish the routeing guide to be changed, you will need to follow the steps set below in the Ticketing & Settlement Agreement.
TSA said:
10-6 CHANGING THE PERMITTED ROUTES

(1) Agreement to make a change

The Routeing Guide may, with the consent of the Authority, be altered from time to time by a resolution of the Ticketing and Settlement Scheme Council, passed by a 75 per cent. majority. Before giving this consent, the Authority will consult with any relevant RPC(s).

If you follow the procedure above and receive an ammendment to the routeing guide then you will then have no further issues on the matter. However in my opinion it would be more advantageous for yourselves to request the right to receive revenue from the Route Birmingham tickets rather than trying to restrict passengers from using them on your services.

- If you try to travel with a Route Birmingham ticket we will ask you to leave the service at Wolverhampton or Tame Bridge, or to purchase a valid ticket. The new ticket will have to be purchased in full as it is not possible to excess a ticket that is not valid for that route to one that is as the allocations of fares would be incorrect to the relevant TOC's. We will recommend that people return to the place of purchase and claim a refund from them for a wrongly sold ticket.


So are you stating that even the services you operate that are routed via Birmingham New Street are not valid for holders of Route Birmingham tickets (such as 1P01- 0512 Wrexham to London)? If Birmingham New Street is not travelling via Birmingham then I do not know what is.

It has been stated before that the fact the service does not call at Birmingham is not an excuse for TOCs to refuse such tickets. WSMR accept "Route High Wycombe" tickets but stop no services there. First Great Western similarly accept London to Exeter "Route Taunton" fares on their services which run non-stop Reading to Exeter, in fact in this example there is no Any Permitted fare (the alternative being "Route Honiton") and so if these tickets were to be refused there would be no valid London to Exeter tickets available to walk-up passengers. The list goes on with examples that can be quoted from across the TOC spectrum.

Lastly you are not implementing the correct excess fare procedures by refusing passengers the oppourtinity to excess their original ticket. The FRPP (The Manual) states clearly in both circumstances where there "was no oppourtunity" to purchase before boarding AND where there "was an oppourtunity" that passengers can excess tickets for Change of Route purposes.

FRPP said:
The Excess Fare to charge when there was “no opportunity to buy” before boarding the train

Change of Route

National Rail Conditions of Carriage, Condition 13, permits customers to travel by a different route, from the one stated on the ticket or allowed by conditions of the National Routeing Guide, to make their journey on payment of an Excess fare. The Excess fare is calculated as follows:

Single tickets

The difference between the price already paid and price of the cheapest Single ticket, available for immediate travel, that allows the customer to travel on the route and Train Company of their choice

Return tickets - change of route in both directions

The difference between the price already paid and price of the cheapest Return ticket, available for immediate travel, that allows the customer to travel on the route and Train Company of their choice.

Return tickets - change of route in one direction only

Half the difference between the price already paid and price of the cheapest Return ticket, available for immediate travel that allows the customer to travel on the route and Train Company of their choice.

FRPP said:
The Excess Fare to charge where there was “opportunity to buy” before boarding the train

Change of route or travel on a day/train for which the ticket is not valid

Charge the difference between the fare paid and the cheapest Single or Return, available for immediate travel, for the journey being made. Railcard holders are eligible for a discount only if original tickets were discounted.

The FRPP is clearly accessible to all TOCs and these procedures are located under the Excess Fare Procedures tab on the left hand side. In all circumstances above it outlines that a new ticket does not need to be purchased and an excess is to be issued.

By asking passengers to purchase new tickets and refusing to excess their original ones you are breaking both these procedures and the National Rail Conditions of Carriage which form the legal contract between the customer and yourselves.

I would welcome your reply to the points raised above and it is very good to see a TOC Managing Director addressing issues in public like this.
 
Last edited:

WSMRMD

Member
Joined
30 Apr 2009
Messages
15
Some positive news.

Following further representation from ourselves and from "a member of the public" (which I'm guessing will be a contributor to this thread!) ATOC/RSP have now confirmed that their previous advise was incorrect and that in line with our initial assesment "Route Birmingham" tickets should be valid on Wrexham & Shropshire services. As such of course we will also be able to claim a portion of the revenue from these tickets in line with the level of useage that will of course have to be determined. This will be put in place as quickly as ATOC can confirm the position in writing and we can brief our on board teams.

Just to be clear to those who have questioned our actions and motives I can assure you that we have sought this position on a number of occasions and have challenged the ATOC/RSP position previously but had had the same advise re-iterated. I'm sure that you will understand that as a purely commercial venture that relies purely on passneger revenue we had to therefore take a position where we would not accept a ticket if we were to receive no revenue from people travelling on that ticket.

So hopefully we can all agree a positive result. Thanks to the person or persons here who raised it from the passenger perspective (assuming it was from hrere and not a coincidence) and helped to bring the issue to a resolution.

Kind Regards
 

Mojo

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Administrator
Joined
7 Aug 2005
Messages
20,382
Location
0035
Excellent! Thanks for the feedback.
 

John @ home

Established Member
Joined
1 Mar 2008
Messages
5,148
I seem to remember reading on this forum that the revenue allocation system is biased in favour of direct trains. If that remains so, as the only direct service, WSMR can expect rather a high proportion of the £46 SVR Shrewsbury - London Terminals route Birmingham fares.

Well done!

John
 
Last edited:

glynn80

Established Member
Joined
1 Jun 2008
Messages
1,666
Some positive news.

Following further representation from ourselves and from "a member of the public" (which I'm guessing will be a contributor to this thread!) ATOC/RSP have now confirmed that their previous advise was incorrect and that in line with our initial assesment "Route Birmingham" tickets should be valid on Wrexham & Shropshire services. As such of course we will also be able to claim a portion of the revenue from these tickets in line with the level of useage that will of course have to be determined. This will be put in place as quickly as ATOC can confirm the position in writing and we can brief our on board teams.

Just to be clear to those who have questioned our actions and motives I can assure you that we have sought this position on a number of occasions and have challenged the ATOC/RSP position previously but had had the same advise re-iterated. I'm sure that you will understand that as a purely commercial venture that relies purely on passneger revenue we had to therefore take a position where we would not accept a ticket if we were to receive no revenue from people travelling on that ticket.

So hopefully we can all agree a positive result. Thanks to the person or persons here who raised it from the passenger perspective (assuming it was from hrere and not a coincidence) and helped to bring the issue to a resolution.

Kind Regards

The member of the public was myself, I sent two detailed emails to ATOC outlining why I felt the ticket was valid and did not leave them a lot of room for maneuver.

They first replied stating the ticket was not valid due to a route restriction clause in the National Rail Conditions of Carriage, however they ignored some pretty crucial points in my emails. I spoke with ATOC on the telephone and sent a follow up email and today I received the following from them.

ATOC said:
Dear Mr XXX

Thank you for your further email. When I replied to you previously I did not have the benefit of a working timetable. I now realise that at least two of the Wrexham & Shropshire Railway (WSR) services pass through Birmingham New Street.

I understand that the reason for you query is that WSR have refused to accept tickets to London that are restricted to route 'Birmingham'. You will therefore be pleased to know that, following discussions with WSR today, they have agreed to accept these tickets in future.

Thank you for taking the time to write. I hope this resolves the matter to your satisfaction.

Yours sincerely

Tony Ewers
Customer Relations Manager

If anybody would like to see the emails I sent and the original responses from ATOC just reply below.

On a final note, I understand that WSMR is a commercial venture but that doesn't detract from the fact that you were refusing to accept tickets which in the eyes of the public were valid. It beggars belief that after three emails I have reversed a decision you seem to of been fighting ATOC to change for a long time. All I can say is that the persons/team at WSMR who were assigned to this duty, obviously didn't present your case very well to ATOC/RSP because it was pretty clear the tickets were valid and not only myself but many other members of this forum clearly and concisely explained the reasons why.
 
Last edited:

t0ffeeman

Member
Joined
11 Jul 2008
Messages
291
Interesting to note that ATOC suggest it was WSMR at fault whereas it was the RSP!
 

tony_mac

Established Member
Joined
25 Feb 2009
Messages
3,626
Location
Liverpool
On a final note, I understand that WSMR is a commercial venture but that doesn't detract from the fact that you were refusing to accept tickets which in the eyes of the public were valid.
well, yes - but if they had just accepted the tickets then there would have been no public complaints and the decision would not have been overturned.
 

glynn80

Established Member
Joined
1 Jun 2008
Messages
1,666
well, yes - but if they had just accepted the tickets then there would have been no public complaints and the decision would not have been overturned.

Well perhaps it worked out well for WSMR, they now get revenue from these tickets and it is likely to be a sizable chunk considering they run direct trains. But you are forgetting that they have been refusing these tickets for quite a considerable period and in that time how many people have been turfed off their services or even worse, charged for a brand-new ticket (seeing as WSMR took it upon themselves to refuse to excess these passengers even when the FRPP stated, that for change of route, an excess should always be the first option).

I did not write to ATOC for the purpose of increasing WSMR's ORCATS revenue, merely because the tickets were valid according to the Routeing Guide and they were being refused, the reason for this is an irrelevance in the public's eyes but at least the situation has now been resolved.
 

steve099

Member
Joined
10 May 2009
Messages
56
Could someone then clarifiy which services travel via New Street, therefore making a Saver Return routed via Birmingham Stations valid for travel with WSMR? To my understanding such a ticket would then allow travel on those trains, say outbound, and then for travel using alternative/indirect services inbound?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top