WSMR and Birmingham Stations

[John @ home]

Could someone then clarifiy which services travel via New Street, therefore making a Saver Return routed via Birmingham Stations valid for travel with WSMR?

It doesn't matter whether they go via New Street, and in any case that information is not widely published. The WSMR MD wrote:

ATOC/RSP have now confirmed that their previous advise was incorrect and that in line with our initial assesment "Route Birmingham" tickets should be valid on Wrexham & Shropshire services.

That is to say, they will be valid on all WSMR services. The reason is that all their services pass through at least one of the group of stations which make up Birmingham Stations for routeing purposes.

John

 

[First class]

Now I wonder whether they will refund any excesses they charged?

 

[glynn80]

It doesn't matter whether they go via New Street, and in any case that information is not widely published. The WSMR MD wrote:

That is to say, they will be valid on all WSMR services. The reason is that all their services pass through at least one of the group of stations which make up Birmingham Stations for routeing purposes.

John

That certainly wasn't ATOC's assessment (or mine now), it seems it was WSMR who have decided to accept the tickets at any time and appears a sensible decision to me.

How is an ordinary "member of the public" meant to be able to interrogate the working timetable to find out the specific route of each WSMR service, this would be a ridiculous request for WSMR/ATOC to suggest. Also what happens if they are charged an excess on the basis the train is timetabled via Aston and then the service is signalled via New Street on the day?

The correspondance I first recieved from ATOC and my last reply was:

Dear XXX

Thank you for your email regarding the fare from Shrewsbury to London which has a 'route Birmingham' restriction. To establish whether you can use this fare on Wrexham & Shropshire trains I have consulted the National Rail Conditions of Carriage (NRCoC). All tickets are sold subject to the NRCoC and condition 13 (d) confirms that some tickets may be restricted to trains which take routes passing through, or avoiding particular locations. It therefore follows that the 'route Birmingham' fare is only valid on trains that pass though or stop at one of the Birmingham stations listed in the National Fares Manual (i.e.New Street, Snow Hill or Moor Street). As you are aware, the Wrexham & Shropshire Railway services do not call or pass through any of the three Birmingham stations and therefore the fare 'route Birmingham' is not valid on their services.

Thank you for taking the time to write. I hope this explains the situation for you.

Yours sincerely

Tony Ewers
Customer Relations Manager

Dear Mr Ewers,

I emailed you twice with comprehensive and detailed reasons why I believed the tickets were valid.

In the first email I stated the following:


"I have checked all Wrexham and Shropshire services and have found they only use two timetabled routes to travel between Shrewsbury to London Marylebone, these are:

* Shrewsbury- Telford Central- Wolverhampton- Tame Bridge Parkway- Soho Junction- Birmingham New Street- Tyseley- Banbury- High Wycombe- London Marylebone (e.g. 0552 Shrewsbury to London Marylebone)
* Shrewsbury- Telford Central- Wolverhampton- Tame Bridge Parkway- Aston- Stechford- Coventry- Leamington Spa- Banbury- High Wycombe- London Marylebone (e.g. 0807 Shrewsbury to London Marylebone)

The first route passes through Birmingham New Street and the second passes through Aston. Both are members of the Birmingham Group as listed in the routeing guide."


I clearly stated in my first bullet point that there are in fact Wrexham and Shropshire services that pass through "Birmingham New Street" and are timetabled to do so. Examples of this are the 0552 Shrewsbury to London Marylebone and the 0645 London Marylebone to Shrewsbury (both of these services start or finish at Wrexham). This has been confirmed to me by railway employees at London Marylebone station and is not a disputable fact.

Your reply does not seem to take into account this at all and in your own words you state "As you are aware, the Wrexham & Shropshire Railway services do not call or pass through any of the three Birmingham stations and therefore the fare 'route Birmingham' is not valid on their services.". I think it is ATOC who are not aware of the Wrexham and Shropshire services which run via Birmingham New Street and this has left me unsure whether you fully read my original email or considered all the points I made.

I can now assume from your reply that the 0552 from Shrewsbury and 0645 from London Marylebone are now valid using Route Birmingham tickets seeing as these services pass through the most promient Birmingham station- New Street. But this still leaves the ambiguity of Aston, which is a member of the "Birmingham Group" but not a "Birmingham Station".

The only logical explanation for the ticket NOT being valid on the Wrexham and Shropshire services, that pass through Aston rather than Birmingham New Street, is that a Route Birmingham ticket is actually a Route "Birmingham Stations" ticket. Is this the case and if so where is this written down for the public to read and scrutinise. Bear in mind please, that the public can no longer purchase the National Fares Manual (this has been replaced by the online Fares & Retail Publications Portal) and the only document even remotely similar in the public domain is the National Rail Fares CD Rom on offer from the TSO Book Shop. This is not as comprehensive as the previous National Fares Manual and purely lists the fares and their respective validity codes. The CD does not explain what you have replied to me with- about Route Birmingham tickets in fact being Route "Birmingham Stations" tickets. If this information is not in the public domain, how is the public supposed to ensure they hold a valid ticket- as the NRCoC makes it very clear we must.

Please can you reply answering whether the Shrewsbury to London- Route Birmingham ticket is valid on the Wrexham and Shropshire's 0552 and 0645 services from Shrewsbury and London respectively seeing as both of these services are timetabled via Birmingham New Street. Can you also reply in response to your reasoning to the conclusion made that the Route Birmingham fare is actually a Route Birmingham stations fare as opposed to a Route Birmingham Group fare.

I do thank you for your swift reply (our telephone call ended with a reply likely in around 7 days) but I am now worried that the Routeing Guide expert did not take into account all I have emailed you with.

Thanks in advance for your help

XXX

Following on with my own research I did find ATOC to be correct when analysing a TSA process guide, it actually defined Route Specific fares:

Route Specific restricts passengers to travelling via a specific route between their chosen origin and destination stations. The route is usually defined by a station, but can sometimes be defined by a prohibition (e.g. “not London”).

This basically confirms that the ticket is a route Birmingham Stations ticket rather than a route Birmingham Group ticket, the specific route you must travel by is defined by a station (in this case Birmingham Stations) and not a routeing guide group of stations. It was again certainly a good move by WSMR however to accept them regardless- much better for the customer and removes any potential onboard issues.

 

[merlodlliw]

So a successful conclusion then, the passenger who is paramount,will no longer be confused, so a win win situation for everyone.

Well done MD of Wrexham & Shropshire letting us know and taking such an interest,

 

[nedchester]

So a successful conclusion then, the passenger who is paramount,will no longer be confused, so a win win situation for everyone.

Well done MD of Wrexham & Shropshire letting us know and taking such an interest,

I was thinking that and it is of benefit (revenue wise) to WSMR as well as the passenger. Interesting development.

 

[tony_mac]

This basically confirms that the ticket is a route Birmingham Stations ticket rather than a route Birmingham Group ticket, the specific route you must travel by is defined by a station (in this case Birmingham Stations) and not a routeing guide group of stations.

I was just thinking that 'route Birkenhead' does not refer (any more) to either a specific station or a group of stations -although it's not as if you can take some strange route through them!

BTW, well done!

 

[First class]

I was just thinking that 'route Birkenhead' does not refer (any more) to either a specific station or a group of stations -although it's not as if you can take some strange route through them!

BTW, well done!

Funnily enough that ticket is valid via Warrington, Runcorn and Birkenhead, but not all on the same journey of course
Reasoning is that the Any Permitted is of the same price.

 

[tony_mac]

What about from Wavertree Technology Park to Chester? There is no 'Any permitted' fare, just route Birkenhead or Warrington - although NXEC does let me go through Warrington on a Route Birkenhead ticket, but not through Birkenhead on a (twice the price!) Route Warrington ticket. I suppose that I could go through Bidston and Shotton - and claim that I was going 'Route Birkenhead Park'....

 

[First class]

Hmm unfortunately only valid via Lime Steet>Birkenhead Central>Bache>Chester.

Bidston and Shotton are both not a valid route from Wavertree.

You would be better buying an Any Permitted Liverpool-Chester Off Peak Day Return and getting an overdistance x/s to/from Wavertree for an extra £0, as the fare is effectively the same price at £4.40. Anyone correct me if I'm wrong though.

 

[Krispo]

Would a London - Liverpool ticket be valid on WSMR to Tame Bridge? then would I be able to get a train to New Street and onto Lime Street?

 

[First class]

Would a London - Liverpool ticket be valid on WSMR to Tame Bridge? then would I be able to get a train to New Street and onto Lime Street?

I've actually been Liverpool-Bidston-Wrexham-London regularly, and WSMR seemed to accept. Even with a PRIV ticket from Bidston-London.

But I think you're suggested route would be fine.

 

[John @ home]

Would a London - Liverpool ticket be valid on WSMR to Tame Bridge? then would I be able to get a train to New Street and onto Lime Street?

You asked this question on 27 April:

Title: London - Liverpool
Would this be valid on WSMR at all?

My view then was:

one can use the ticket on WSMR between Marylebone and Tame Bridge Parkway and there is then a permitted route from Tame Bridge Parkway to Liverpool via Crewe, but not much of a service over that route. In reality one would probably buy a local ticket, such as a £4 single to Wolverhampton which is valid on the half-hourly through service via Birmingham, and resume the Liverpool ticket at Wolverhampton.

Alternatively, one can travel from Euston to Tame Bridge Parkway then use the ticket on WSMR between Tame Bridge Parkway and Wrexham.

But the rules don't allow both parts on WSMR.

That's still my view now.

John
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Would a London - Liverpool ticket be valid on WSMR to Tame Bridge? then would I be able to get a train to New Street and onto Lime Street?

I've actually been Liverpool-Bidston-Wrexham-London regularly, and WSMR seemed to accept. Even with a PRIV ticket from Bidston-London.

But I think you're suggested route would be fine.

Yes, that's correct. With a London - Bidston ticket, Shotton is an appropriate routeing point and the whole WSMR route can be included using map WS.

Map WS is not available with a London - Liverpool ticket, hence the more complex position described in the previous post. Map WS is, however, available with a London - Birkenhead Park ticket, which is the same price for walk-on fares.

John

 

[OwlMan]

Originally Posted by John @ home
one can use the ticket on WSMR between Marylebone and Tame Bridge Parkway and there is then a permitted route from Tame Bridge Parkway to Liverpool via Crewe, but not much of a service over that route. In reality one would probably buy a local ticket, such as a £4 single to Wolverhampton which is valid on the half-hourly through service via Birmingham, and resume the Liverpool ticket at Wolverhampton.

Alternatively, one can travel from Euston to Tame Bridge Parkway then use the ticket on WSMR between Tame Bridge Parkway and Wrexham.

But the rules don't allow both parts on WSMR.


I agree with the above as travelling back to New Street is "doubling back" but I think that the easiest and cheapest way would be to get the next train to Walsall (your ticket is valid from Birmingham - Walsall - Wolverhampton)and then get the bus from Walsall to Wolverhampton and then recommence the rail journey; or if you get the 1633 from Marylebone you can change at Tame Bridge onto the 1850 or 1905 to Walsall and then catch the 1936 direct train from Walsall to Wolverhampton (Mon - Fri only)



Peter