WSMR to finish

[TomJ93]

if we get enough bashers on the last service, may I propose a round of applause for the staff?

 

[dk1]

Virgin will be rubbing their hands with joy no doubt. What a relief for them that the competition has gone. They need not bother with a service to Wrexham now. If the restrictions hadn't been put on them in the first place and they were given the freedom to stop and pick up then it might have succeeded. If airlines can compete why the hell can't the railways??

As stated earlier, i don't imagine Virgin Trains ever considered WSMR a threat in any way. In comparison to their income WSMR's was very small hence we see the result. I could never see how so many staff looking after so few with bargain fares could ever be succesful.

It is very nice to see that Virgin Trains will honour all bookings on their services from Wrexham, Chester or Wolverhampton.

 

[nedchester]

Perhaps if they ran a better, faster service, instead of force feeding people a load of crap food (tho apparently some people like it), they might have made some money.
It shows the beauty of privatisation. Unwanted services are removed, to be replaced by extra trains on Chiltern services.

Crap food?! You are having a laugh aren't you? Last year I travelled down to London (standard class with WSMR from Wrexham) and purchased their excellent £10 breakfast. I was told there would be a slight delay due to them serving First class passengers first (fair enough). Anyway when the breakfast arrived it came on a proper plate with a proper knife and fork:

http://nedchester.fotopic.net/p64166811.html

Try getting something like that on Virgin and you'll be waiting a very long time!!!

It's a sad day for the railways with WSMR going under. I hope the staff find employment very quickly they certain deserve it for all their efforts. They can teach other TOCs a thing or two.

 

[tbtc]

It is very nice to see that Virgin Trains will honour all bookings on their services from Wrexham, Chester or Wolverhampton.

Credit to Virgin for this - people seem very one-sided in their views when it comes to certain TOCs, but I'd hope that the enthusiasts sad at the very sudden loss of WMSR will give Virgin some praise here for taking on the liability at short notice - nice to see other TOCs come to the rescue like this (despite the "big bad Virgin" reputation they have).

On the subject of Virgin - they are criticised for not allowing WMSR to stop at New Street etc, but WMSR went into business knowing that this would be the case - if you know the rules before you start then you can't complain about them.

 

[Metroland]

It shows the beauty of privatisation. Unwanted services are removed, to be replaced by extra trains on Chiltern services.

BR removed many unwanted services, cut backs on line after line, and very minimal services where there was no demand, thousands of miles of line closure and no investment for years in many places. All to such an extent much traffic went to competing forms for transport, despite the ideological belief of many the railway is an monopoly. This even though transport is a very competitive market with wafer thin profits, if any profits at all, especially where there is a mandate to provide a service the public want at times that you cannot best utilise your assets.

The real joke about privatisation is open access operators are hamstrung by the franchised operators and Wrexham and Shropshire is a classic case so much red tape was put in the way, that it's questionable whether open access has any real point at all.

 

[CallySleeperKid]

I only got news of this very sad story this afternoon.

I have to say I am gutted, and I glad that I had the pleasure of making two superb first class journeys with Wrexham & Shropshire. The staff were amazing, and I really hope they get jobs somewhere within the industry, its just a shame that the standards and personal service they are so good at are not used by other TOC's.

I just wish this was not happening, but sadly this is life at the moment, the good get the worst of luck!

I hope another company can take the standards W&S have set out and bring them back to our railways.

Again, gutted.

 

[Mr Spock]

Virgin will be rubbing their hands now though, they can have that Euston-Shrewsbury via Nuneaton now, or do they need to, now that competition has been eradicated? (Typical Virgin, thinking the Earth revolves around their business interests!)

Sorry, had to get that off my chest.

Matt E

Pointless and ridculous posting as Virgin were not that bothered about WSMR and as for Shrewsbury didn't they try that some time ago and pulled it for lack of custom (as did BR).

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Pointless and ridculous posting as Virgin were not that bothered about WSMR and as for Shrewsbury didn't they try that some time ago and pulled it for lack of custom (as did BR).

Strange though how thy reintroed their interest when WSMR dared to go first.

 

[4SRKT]

sorry, my sarcasm doesnt always come over well on a message board!

The point I was trying to make was that under BR, no such service could ever have existed in the first place. Privatisation enabled such a service to be tried, but, because it wasnt popular enough to make money, it failed, and is being scrapped, so that stock can be switched to more heavily used routes, such as extra Chiltern services from Birmingham to Marylebone.

what a disgraceful way to behave!!! providing services where passengers actually want them instead of where railway planners just think they do. Clearly this would never have happened under BR......

Have you any idea of the level of innovation under BR, especially in the last 10 or so years of its existence? It was simply staggering by today's standards: every new timetable was markedly different from the last as services were innovated, and unwanted services dropped. The timetable of today is far more like the timetable of 1994 than the 1994 timetable was like the one of 1987 or even 1991 (two I happen to still possess). As for the table of 1985, the last one I still have that predates the 'Sprinter Revolution', well that bears no resemblance at all to the 1994 book.

 

[mumrar]

purchased their excellent £10 breakfast. I was told there would be a slight delay due to them serving First class passengers first (fair enough). Anyway when the breakfast arrived it came on a proper plate with a proper knife and fork:

For £10 that is the very LEAST I'd expect, most places will sell you two breakfasts and you'd still have change from a tenner.

Back to topic, it is sad for the staff that this has come to be. As hinted, i think the amount of staff per service may be a contributing factor to the lack of profit. The service would have cost a lot more in track access charges to run than a pair of units, and provided less seats too in comparison.

I don't think it's right to lay the blame at any particular door, it reminds me of the MG Rover, or the many names they had over the years, saga(s). The fault ultimately lies with the service/product. People could not be MADE to purchase a Rover any more than you can force people to travel by WSMR. The tours of the railway network at weekends coupled with the daily use of back routes and small stations meant it would only really compete for the leisure/enthusiast markets.

 

[142094]

Perhaps if they ran a better, faster service, instead of force feeding people a load of crap food (tho apparently some people like it), they might have made some money.
It shows the beauty of privatisation. Unwanted services are removed, to be replaced by extra trains on Chiltern services.

To run a better and faster service would have required input from DfT, with obviously wasn't forthcoming. W+S showed that they could do things differently, focussing on service, which some TOCs don't do half as well.

I don't see this as the beauty of privatisation, some services do not make money but are still necessary and that is why some are subsidised. Plus this goes to show that privatisation has not brought any sort of competition, prices are high and we've still got overcrowding and old trains across the network. The railways are a public service and should not be looked at as a cash cow for shareholders.

 

[tbtc]

The real joke about privatisation is open access operators are hamstrung by the franchised operators and Wrexham and Shropshire is a classic case so much red tape was put in the way, that it's questionable whether open access has any real point at all.

Hull Trains and Grand Central (to Sunderland) seem to be doing fine, but they are linking big places to London by a direct route. Sorry to say, but the business cases were stronger for them than WMSR

No red tape was "put in the way" of WMSR, the restrictions on "competition" were there beforehand AFAIK (?)

 

[Mr Spock]

Strange though how thy reintroed their interest when WSMR dared to go first.

They extended a Chester service to Wrexham not Shrewsbury.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

They extended a Chester service to Wrexham not Shrewsbury.

I meant when WSMR went to Wrexham and Shrewsbury, and looked to have a good chance of business, why did Virgin suddenly pipe up and apply to run to Shrewsbury too? They ddin't seem so interested in 2000.

 

[MCR247]

Strange though how thy reintroed their interest when WSMR dared to go first.

Not really. They wanted rid of WSMR.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Not really. They wanted rid of WSMR.

That's what i meant I think they wanted someone else to risk it first, and in a way, would be ready to pounce.

 

[Mr Spock]

I meant when WSMR went to Wrexham and Shrewsbury, and looked to have a good chance of business, why did Virgin suddenly pipe up and apply to run to Shrewsbury too? They ddin't seem so interested in 2000.

Virgin ran to Shrewsbury (via Brum and Wolves) long before WSMR started and pulled out due to lack of passengers.

They run one service each way between Wrexham and London and do not go to Shrewsbury.

BR ran a service from Shrewsbury and also pulled it due to lack of passengers.

 

[MCR247]

That's what i meant I think they wanted someone else to risk it first, and in a way, would be ready to pounce.

No, you aren't getting it. They just wanted to compete with WSMR. No risk involved.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Virgin ran to Shrewsbury (via Brum and Wolves) long before WSMR started and pulled out due to lack of passengers.

They run one service each way between Wrexham and London and do not go to Shrewsbury.

BR ran a service from Shrewsbury and also pulled it due to lack of passengers.

yes thanks I knew all of that, bit confused as to what direction what i have said is being taken :neutral:

 

[merlodlliw]

Credit to Virgin for this - people seem very one-sided in their views when it comes to certain TOCs, but I'd hope that the enthusiasts sad at the very sudden loss of WMSR will give Virgin some praise here for taking on the liability at short notice - nice to see other TOCs come to the rescue like this (despite the "big bad Virgin" reputation they have).

On the subject of Virgin - they are criticised for not allowing WMSR to stop at New Street etc, but WMSR went into business knowing that this would be the case - if you know the rules before you start then you can't complain about them.

Well it was not my intention to respond to those who appear upbeat about W/S going out of business, but as I appear to know the facts about New St,
W/S had been given the go ahead by the ORR to stop at New Street, the ORR were not aware of the Anti Compi clause, it was only when VT told the ORR of this clause after permission had been given and an objection lodged by VT,not before but after the decision , the ORR informed W/S a new route would have to be found. Not a mention of this during prior consultation by ORR with VT.
and as for VT taking on the tickets, it is a recipricle arrangement, W/S did the same for VT when they had problems as do all tocs.
Asking enthusiasts to praise Virgin on the day W/S services are announced to end, is beyond belief and insensitive to W/S employees on this site.

 

[tbtc]

Virgin ran to Shrewsbury (via Brum and Wolves) long before WSMR started and pulled out due to lack of passengers

In fairness to Virgin, it was probably right to cut back to Wolves and concentrate on the "core" service at the time. By the time the 390s were running and the service had settled down it was understandable to consider extending into other places
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Well it was not my intention to respond to those who appear upbeat about W/S going out of business, but as I appear to know the facts about New St,
W/S had been given the go ahead by the ORR to stop at New Street, the ORR were not aware of the Anti Compi clause, it was only when VT told the ORR of this clause after permission had been given and an objection lodged by VT,not before but after the decision , the ORR informed W/S a new route would have to be found. Not a mention of this during prior consultation by ORR with VT.
and as for VT taking on the tickets, it is a recipricle arrangement, W/S did the same for VT when they had problems as do all tocs.
Asking enthusiasts to praise Virgin on the day W/S services are announced to end, is beyond belief and insensitive to W/S employees on this site.

The rules didn't change though, as far as I understand, just some people didn't understand those rules.

As for calling me "beyond belief" and "insensitive" for daring to praise Virgin for stepping in to honour WMSR liabilities at short notice... I'm sorry if you feel I can't praise Virgin. Remember, WMSR didn't fail because of Virgin, however simple a story it may be to believe.

 

[daikilo]

Hull Trains and Grand Central (to Sunderland) seem to be doing fine, but they are linking big places to London by a direct route. Sorry to say, but the business cases were stronger for them than WMSR

No red tape was "put in the way" of WMSR, the restrictions on "competition" were there beforehand AFAIK (?)

Well, here the open access operator backers bought the franchised TOC and put them into internal competition! What intrigues me is why close a functioning and very well respected WS&MR, even if it failed to make the target profit, when I presume it could have been morphed into a DB open access competitor for other operations. Did the DfT take a strong line on franchisees also being open access? Did DB forbid its subsidiaries to compete with each other (or say the winner takes all)?

 

[yorkie]

Please post any discussion on rolling stock issues on the What will happen to ex-WSMR stock? thread in Traction & Rolling Stock. All posts (that I could see) on this thread on that subject have been moved there. (I deleted one or two rants about the rolling stock being discussed; I understand the frustration and agree they belong elsewhere, but next time please use the report button and suggest we move the posts, thanks! )

I would also like to request that people try to be tactful in what they say, comments about people being 'force fed' food, or the service being 'unwanted' are obviously likely to upset staff & regular customers & supporters alike.

I travelled Wrexham-Marylebone once, in 2009, and had a good journey and the food was good. My sympathies to all involved.

 

[route101]

What a shame to hear this! I have fond memories of travelling WSMR between Wrexham and Wolverhampton on the 30TH June 2008.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

This is a great pity and working from the quoted annual loss and the quoted £40 fare the maths shows that it only needed an average of an extra 35 passengers on each train ( based on 3 return trips a day ) to break even.

So close, but it does demonstrate just how tight the margins are in running this kind of service.

Hopefully, as others have said, the staff will be able to be re-located and will be able to continue working in the industry.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Virgin ran to Shrewsbury (via Brum and Wolves) long before WSMR started and pulled out due to lack of passengers.

They run one service each way between Wrexham and London and do not go to Shrewsbury.

BR ran a service from Shrewsbury and also pulled it due to lack of passengers.

I collected people form Shrewsbury station in the early 90's- there was no lack of passengers on direct Euston services. It was "operational convenience" and a directive to "improve profitability" note not make profit as it was already there in preparation for privatisation that saw the trains withdrawn. I can remember there being that many people wanting tickets that the Cambrian Coast Express in the late 80's use to sit at the Home signal at Caersws blowing its horn as the Signalman cum booking clerk was still issuing tickets.

Do the math as I said earlier in thread WSMR were generating £6 million revenue, translate that into £40 tickets and shoe horn the footfall into already overcrowded ATW and LM services.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

In fairness to Virgin, it was probably right to cut back to Wolves and concentrate on the "core" service at the time. By the time the 390s were running and the service had settled down it was understandable to consider extending into other places
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


The rules didn't change though, as far as I understand, just some people didn't understand those rules.

As for calling me "beyond belief" and "insensitive" for daring to praise Virgin for stepping in to honour WMSR liabilities at short notice... I'm sorry if you feel I can't praise Virgin. Remember, WMSR didn't fail because of Virgin, however simple a story it may be to believe.

Of course Sheffield was given franchised services to London written into contracts due to historical accident. I doubt folk from South Yorkshire would be so dismissive about other parts of the country if Sheffield was so discriminated against.

 

[Pumbaa]

it was only when VT told the ORR of this clause after permission had been given and an objection lodged by VT,not before but after the decision , the ORR informed W/S a new route would have to be found.

Asking enthusiasts to praise Virgin on the day W/S services are announced to end, is beyond belief and insensitive to W/S employees on this site.

NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO - I will go blue in the face one day when people actually read and regurgitate fact, not whispers! Virgin did not put a MoC concern in because they felt like it; they HAD to on behalf of DfT. It is a statutory AGREEMENT in their franchise and there is no way round it. If you care to glance over the documents, it says it all quite clearly black and white. Tony Collins has repeatedly said he's supportive of W+S, and he wanted to open up the route to them. DfT wouldn't allow it.

Blame DfT all you want - I'm not stopping you! But don't blame VT, and please don't wibble on about 'insensitivity' as thats a load of b*llocks. VT have done everything by the book, they are not at fault. I am sorry that you feel unable to praise Virgin in the same way you cannot accept ATW ever do a thing right.

 

[merlodlliw]

I have my opinion,also I have seen all documentation from the ORR at meetings with W/S where I was representing the voluntary sector in Wrexham along with other supporters from the Private & Statutory sectors to get the railway into the town, so do not need a lecture on attention to detail from anyone who was not party to the meetings.

You think VT played by the book.You mention ATW, not me, well heres one example of a combined exercise by VT & ATW, to spoil W/S.

Two paths were given up by ATW into Wrexham to VT so it could extend its Chester/london service into the town, with the sole reason to damage W/S.

Anyhow its all in the past now, and as I am aware of a few more dirty tricks by VT & its then bed partner, when I say insensitive to W/S staff those wonderful people know what I mean.

At least we are left with a clean tidy station, where four years ago it was a disgrace and full of decay, all credit to this goes to W/S

 

[tbtc]

Blame DfT all you want - I'm not stopping you! But don't blame VT, and please don't wibble on about 'insensitivity' as thats a load of b*llocks. VT have done everything by the book, they are not at fault. I am sorry that you feel unable to praise Virgin in the same way you cannot accept ATW ever do a thing right.

Spot on (as usual)

 

[thefab444]

That's because the forum software blocks 'bit dot ly' links.

Proper link:
http://www.petitionbuzz.com/petitions/wrexhamandshropshire