WYPTE metro dayrover (train & bus)

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34D

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Yesterday I observed a passenger board at Ben Rhudding (unstaffed station, Ilkley line) then asking the guard for a train & bus dayrover. The guard advised he couldn't sell it from his machine (but could do train only). The passenger eventually purchased a Ben Rhydding-Huddersfield CDR.

Questions:
-is the train & bus ticket available from rail stations, or is it just at WYPTE outlets and post offices?
-is it possible to issue this ticket on the mobile terminals?
-was the guard correct to refuse to sell the above ticket on the train (when no other facilities available)?
-if the ticket is available to staffed stations, yet the guard couldn't issue it (either due to machine issues or training issues) what should he have done? Passed to Leeds? Sold a Leeds ticket with the instruction it could be exchanged for part credit? Other?
-why isn't this popular ticket available from Northern TVMs (either cash/xard or card only)?

Thanks
 
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John @ home

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is the train & bus ticket available from rail stations, or is it just at WYPTE outlets and post offices?
Metro advertise here that Day Rovers are available from bus stations, staffed railway stations and most post offices in West Yorkshire, and three other outlets in Leeds.
is it possible to issue this ticket on the mobile terminals?
Not on the correct ticket stock.
was the guard correct to refuse to sell the above ticket on the train (when no other facilities available)?
It has previously been reported on this forum that the train & bus Day Rovers must not be issued on normal ticket stock because they won't be accepted by bus drivers.
if the ticket is available to staffed stations, yet the guard couldn't issue it (either due to machine issues or training issues) what should he have done? Passed to Leeds? Sold a Leeds ticket with the instruction it could be exchanged for part credit? Other?
When tickets issued on trains in south-east England were often on stock which did not operate barriers, it was usual to be issued with a ticket type "Exchange Travelcard" which could be used on trains only until exchanged for a magnetic stripe ticket at a staffed ticket office. It may be worth asking Metro to consider the introduction of something similar in West Yorkshire.
why isn't this popular ticket available from Northern TVMs (either cash/xard or card only)?
Due to the special ticket stock, I think.
 

Deerfold

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I have been told before now that I cannot buy any train and bus versions on the train - this is particularly annoying as the family version is cheaper than 2 adult train only day rovers, my local station is unstaffed, the ticket machine does not sell day rovers and my local bus station only seems to stock scratch-off tickets which expire this year so I don't like to stockpile them.

In my experience on-train staff are quite happy to sell the train-only version.

Also annoying that the scratchcard version does not operate barriers so I'd rather get one on normal-sized stock.
 

John @ home

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To my knowledge though, train only is also supposed to be on special stock.
Where available, it seems. The Manual's General Overview of WY Day Rovers states
the only version which can be issued on orange RSP ticket stock is the Adult and Concessionary Train Only DayRovers. This ticket, as a result can also be issued on-train. All other DayRovers must be purchased for the ticket office on the RSP West Yorkshire pictorial ticket stock.
 

yorksrob

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Does seem a bit silly, as the Manchester version can be issued on orange ticket stock - particularly when there are so many unstaffed stations in West Yorkshire.
 

Solent&Wessex

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Does seem a bit silly, as the Manchester version can be issued on orange ticket stock - particularly when there are so many unstaffed stations in West Yorkshire.

Indeed it is silly. If you sell one from Avantix it only prints, from memory "West Yorkshire DayRover" and "Rail Ranger" along the bottom, even though you have actually sold a Train and Bus Day Rover. Equally annoying is that bus drivers cannot sell them either, unlike in GM and Birmingham. It cannot be too complicated, surely to program bus and train ticket machines to print the correct wording and then tell bus drivers and guards what to look for? Whether progress will be made I do not know, it was only recently when bus drivers became able to sell bus only dayrovers - before that they could only sell operator specific tickets.

 

323235

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In Manchester bus drivers usually look at the price more than anything else when inspecting system one tickets on RSP ticketing stock because they know the prices from selling them on the buses. However I've never had any of them outright refuse even when they're not totally convinced by an explanation of the codes printed on the ticket, e.g. TBM or TB.
 

34D

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Indeed it is silly. If you sell one from Avantix it only prints, from memory "West Yorkshire DayRover" and "Rail Ranger" along the bottom, even though you have actually sold a Train and Bus Day Rover. Equally annoying is that bus drivers cannot sell them either, unlike in GM and Birmingham.

A recent-ish change is that bus drivers can sell bus only.

Can anyone suggest what should happen to a customer who requires the train and bus ticket please.
 

Solent&Wessex

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A recent-ish change is that bus drivers can sell bus only.

Can anyone suggest what should happen to a customer who requires the train and bus ticket please.
On the basis that all the publicity from Metro does clearly state where you can - or cannot - buy the DayRover range of tickets, then they would need to purchase a single or return ticket for the journey they are making on that particular train or bus.


 

34D

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On the basis that all the publicity from Metro does clearly state where you can - or cannot - buy the DayRover range of tickets, then they would need to purchase a single or return ticket for the journey they are making on that particular train or bus.



Do we have a conflict with the long-established position for unstaffed stations, where the full range is available either on board or at destination.

If we told Southern/LM that they can advertise certain tickets as "from staffed ticket offices only" then they'd have a field day.
 

sheff1

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This is a Metro product, the availabilty of which is clearly advertised by Metro. If you are unhappy with the arrangements, why not contact them and let us know the outcome ?
 

Solent&Wessex

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This is a Metro product, the availabilty of which is clearly advertised by Metro. If you are unhappy with the arrangements, why not contact them and let us know the outcome ?
Correct. This isn't a standard TOC product. It is a PTE product and it is up to them how they sell it. It is exactly the same as GMPTE Wayfarer tickets, which cannot be purchased on trains either. Neither can Southern Daysave tickets. Nor can some SYPTE tickets. And I am sure there are many other examples of tickets which cannot be purchased on board a train. As it happens I did hear a rumour from a contact at WYPTE that they were looking into ways of making the DayRover family of tickets more widely available at some point.



--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Do we have a conflict with the long-established position for unstaffed stations, where the full range is available either on board or at destination.

If we told Southern/LM that they can advertise certain tickets as "from staffed ticket offices only" then they'd have a field day.

I think you'll find they do - Daysave - only available to buy from the Southern website.

And I'm sure if bus and train passengers found out they could travel around for free on the basis that they will purchase one later, then they would have a field day too. On the basis that I can't buy a train and bus dayrover from a bus driver either, does that mean that I can travel around not paying for bus travel until such time I reach a bus stop with a post office, or I change onto a train at a staffed station?

 

mm333

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Printing the train and bus DayRovers on special stock predates the arrival of Avantix Mobile to Northern services. Would it not now be possible for the machine to print "VALID ON BUSES AND TRAINS" in large letters on it, removing the need for special stock?
 

34D

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This is a Metro product, the availabilty of which is clearly advertised by Metro. If you are unhappy with the arrangements, why not contact them and let us know the outcome ?

You are missing the point. Metro decree that this product is available from railway stations. Under NRCOC clause 3, where the full range of tickets is not available at the station, the passenger is entitled to pay something then exchange for the correct ticket at a suitable opportunity.
 

sheff1

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You are missing the point. Metro decree that this product is available from railway stations.

No, you are missing the point. Metro is not a TOC and merely state the ticket is available from staffed railway stations. kwvr45 has given more examples in post #14
 

Deerfold

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You are missing the point. Metro decree that this product is available from railway stations. Under NRCOC clause 3, where the full range of tickets is not available at the station, the passenger is entitled to pay something then exchange for the correct ticket at a suitable opportunity.

Whilst I think it would be great to have additional ways of purchasing the ticket, I don't think it's something we can demand.
 

yorksrob

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I find the special ticket stock very attractive, however I do think they ought to lay it out in such a way that it is printable on the train on standard stock on the train as well.

In itself the rover is an excellent product, however by forcing the large proportion of potential customers living near unstaffed stations to buy an additional ticket to get to a staffed one, they are making it unattractive to them, which seems a bit pointless IMO.
 

pdq

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You can always buy a number in advance from Post Offices so you always have one spare. Whilst this won't work the barriers that's not an issue for a great deal of the WYPTE network. If they expire before use you can swap them at the same place as you bought them. I recall that Metro did a promotion last summer on the family day rover where you got one free - might have been 10 for the price of 9 or similar.
 

AndyHudds

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Whilst the improvement works were being carried out at Huddersfield and the ticket office was closed,me and my wife decided to visit Leeds and as it was a Sunday we had to purchase the Family Day Rover at the station.The ticket was issued on standard rail ticket stock and not the usual picture ticket,as the ticket seller was using the hand held ticket machines,he assured me that the ticket would be accepted on the bus. I thought to myself "we're gonna have problems here on the buses" and low and behold the first bus boarded I had to argue the toss with the driver for 5 minutes before he let us on!!! He thought they were the "plus bus" tickets. I was going to contact Metro over it to see why they hadn't cascaded the fact that when the ticket office at Huddersfield was closed that Day Rovers would be issued on standard rail ticket stock,maybe they had,as I never followed it through so I'll never know and the bus company hadn't informed their drivers.Having dealt with First bus before it wouldn't surprise me if this was the case.

It does seem mad that the conductors/guards aren't able to sell the tickets on board the train after all you can buy London Travel Cards on board Virgin/East Coast/Grand Central as well as on line all issued on standard rail ticket stock as oppose to the special TfL pink tickets. The tickets are popular and I use them all the time, it seems wrong to penalise people especially families if they have the misfortune of living near a unstaffed station.

Another beef I have with the tickets is the lack of outlets your able to buy them from,post offices and bus/rail stations only,what if its a Sunday and you want one? The post office isn't open!! Again it just seems mad that the tickets are only available at 3 outlets, you can't by them on line either and collect from the station ticket machine.

Maybe we'll see a change when Metro roll out the "Smart Ticket" system they are planning to introduce later this year.I certainly hope so,if not,it'll be a missed opportunity to improve Bus and Rail ticketing throughout the West Yorkshire area.
 

yorksrob

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Must just be a training issue with the bus drivers. I've used the Manchester version "On The Buses" a few times now and thus far they've never been flummoxed by the standard orange ticket stock.
 

34D

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Must just be a training issue with the bus drivers. I've used the Manchester version "On The Buses" a few times now and thus far they've never been flummoxed by the standard orange ticket stock.

No, the driver was (rightly or wrongly) following process. The WYPTE staff ticket guide (STG) states that the train & bus ticket is only issued on picture stock.

As you say though, bus drivers are used to plusbus on orange stock, aswell as through tickets (destinations such as Leeds Bradford airport), that it seems a sensible move - as does issuing tickets onboard buses too.

Regarding smartcards, rail will probably be last - probably 90% of the buses in West Yorkshire have smartcard readers (including some of the bigger independents - the main omission being centrebus and some minor operators).

The only rail stations in Yorkshire that appear to have smartcard readers are Leeds, Bradford Int and Sheffield Midland (there must be others, surely?).
 

142094

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The only rail stations in Yorkshire that appear to have smartcard readers are Leeds, Bradford Int and Sheffield Midland (there must be others, surely?).

There will be a lot more in the coming months with the progression of the Yorcard scheme. For some reason Swinton S Yorks sticks in the mind, I'm sure I've seen a reader there.
 

34D

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There will be a lot more in the coming months with the progression of the Yorcard scheme. For some reason Swinton S Yorks sticks in the mind, I'm sure I've seen a reader there.

I'm surprised really they didn't do rail first - 50 ish stations (west & south yorks) with touch in/touch out seems simpler than hundreds of buses, over a dozen operators, and the issue of how to do bus ITSO transactions when there is only a touch in.
 

AndyHudds

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I would imagine its going to be similar to the Oyster system in London with flat fares for bus journeys being charged at a flat fare whether your going 2 stops or 15 if your using PAYG.If you are using PAYG there has to be a point where it just charges you for a day ticket of some kind I would imagine. There will be the choice to buy monthly or weekly tickets bus and train,train only and bus only,that's what I glean from the Metro website anyway.
 

142094

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I'm surprised really they didn't do rail first - 50 ish stations (west & south yorks) with touch in/touch out seems simpler than hundreds of buses, over a dozen operators, and the issue of how to do bus ITSO transactions when there is only a touch in.

Metro and SYPTE are taking some more staff on for the project right now, so hopefully that will mean the process is speeding up. Newcastle University were doing some research with the project, although I'm not sure what they have done recently.

One of the driving forces behind getting the buses done first is the fact that the English National Concessionary passes should be smart-card versions now (and also the fact that if a bus company puts in the new ticket machines they get an extra few £££ from the BSOG).
 

Deerfold

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You can always buy a number in advance from Post Offices so you always have one spare. Whilst this won't work the barriers that's not an issue for a great deal of the WYPTE network. If they expire before use you can swap them at the same place as you bought them. I recall that Metro did a promotion last summer on the family day rover where you got one free - might have been 10 for the price of 9 or similar.

Has this changed? Metro didn't used to swap expired ones - it was your bad luck, so I tend not to stock up as all my local outlets only have tickets that expire this year.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I would imagine its going to be similar to the Oyster system in London with flat fares for bus journeys being charged at a flat fare whether your going 2 stops or 15 if your using PAYG.If you are using PAYG there has to be a point where it just charges you for a day ticket of some kind I would imagine. There will be the choice to buy monthly or weekly tickets bus and train,train only and bus only,that's what I glean from the Metro website anyway.

I'd be very surprised if a flat far was introduced. Bus companies in West Yorkshire don't seem ken on flat fares. I suspect it will work more like Trentbarton's Mango, requiring you to touch in and out or will only alow passes to be loaded like NCT's smartcard.
 

34D

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I would imagine its going to be similar to the Oyster system in London with flat fares for bus journeys being charged at a flat fare whether your going 2 stops or 15 if your using PAYG.If you are using PAYG there has to be a point where it just charges you for a day ticket of some kind I would imagine. There will be the choice to buy monthly or weekly tickets bus and train,train only and bus only,that's what I glean from the Metro website anyway.

I'll avoid using the term payg to avoid creating confusion.

How 'adult' itso cards will work appear to be one of the following.

Card is touched on itso pad, and after a few seconds either:

-gives a green light, and flashes up the name of the prepaid ticket that is on (ie MetroCard bus only)
Or
-the driver chooses the destination, and presses a button perhaps labelled 'smart' or 'card' which deducts the chosen amount and issues a ticket (subject to balance).

What ITSO prepaid will _not_ do (as I understand it) is the London-style fast touching no ticket printed boarding that people might expect.

I'd be very surprised if a flat far was introduced. Bus companies in West Yorkshire don't seem ken on flat fares. I suspect it will work more like Trentbarton's Mango, requiring you to touch in and out or will only alow passes to be loaded like NCT's smartcard.

Most interesting, thanks. So is the touch-out done on the same machine, or does the bus have an 'exit' ITSO pad aswell?
 

bb21

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ITSO-standard smart card system will not offer speedy boarding on buses, compared to Oyster, if the performance of concessionary travel cards is anything to go by.
 
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