XC Bournemouth Service

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Morgsie

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Following the announcement by the Government of Southampton to Nuneaton being electrified, I fear that the XC Bournemouth Service may terminate at Southampton Central
 
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Drsatan

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Not necessarily. If the Voyager bi-mode project goes ahead then Voyagers will still be able to run on diesel power.

Also, only Nuneaton to Basingstoke will be electrified at 25kv AC; the announcement did not mention that Basingstoke to SOU will be re-electrified at 25kv AC
 

Morgsie

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Not necessarily. If the Voyager bi-mode project goes ahead then Voyagers will still be able to run on diesel power.

Also, only Nuneaton to Basingstoke will be electrified at 25kv AC; the announcement did not mention that Basingstoke to SOU will be re-electrified at 25kv AC
According to maps on the DfT website: Basingstoke to Southampton will be Electrified. http://www.dft.gov.uk/publications/hlos-2012/
 

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wintonian

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Depends on the service some are very lightly loaded, others about a 1/3 of a carriage is full and some are standing room only. You can usually get first class to your self though.
 

Stats

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Also, only Nuneaton to Basingstoke will be electrified at 25kv AC; the announcement did not mention that Basingstoke to SOU will be re-electrified at 25kv AC
The HLOS specifically mentions that it will.

The change at renewal of Southampton to Basingstoke - the southern section of the Electric Spine - to the modern overhead AC system will also test the business case for the wider conversion of the third rail electric network south of the Thames to overhead line equipment.
 

Schnellzug

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That's for primarily freight, the 25 kv to southampton, (which does raise question of where Freightliner are going to get enough electric locos from; would any 92s be available [although of course they could use 3rd rail already]?), but I think because of technical reasons having AC and DC simultaneously on the same section of track wouldn't be feasible, which is why it would have to be converted entirely, rather than having it dual voltage, from what the Experts say. For SWT that needn't be too much inconvenience, as the Desiros were designed to be easily convertibel to dual voltage, and i suppose if it's electrificated all the way from Coventry to Southampton on AC it'd make sense for XC to go the whole hog & convert the Voyagers to dual mode. Although of course, that hasn't stopped Voyagers being used on diesel on journeys that are under the wires all the way, so unless the Department for Transport are going to insist on electric operation as far as possible, [perhaps it might be written into future franchise specifications?] there's nothing to make them do so.
 

Ferret

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Abundantly.
And then some! Bournemouth is a favourite for the elderly holidaymaker (as my parents are currently demonstrating, though don't show them this post describing them as elderly! Haha!), and Southampton is cruise ship heaven, so the Bournemouths are wedged solid!

Add to that, the traincrew depot for the south is at Bournemouth!

 

SWTCommuter

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According to this press release on the Cabinet Office website, the 25KV conversion will reach Bournemouth

http://rnn.cabinetoffice.gov.uk/Pre...ification-of-the-Midland-Main-Line-67d1f.aspx

4. Planned improvements to deliver the ‘Electric Spine’ include:
· Midland Main Line electrification.
· Basingstoke to Reading electrification.
· Bournemouth to Basingstoke conversion from DC to AC electrification.
· Oxford - Nuneaton via Leamington - Coventry electrification.
· Midland Main Line Enhancement Bedford – Corby.
· Midland Main Line Leicester capacity improvements.
· Midland Main Line - Derby journey time and capacity improvements.
· Oxford - Bedford electrification.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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Not necessarily. If the Voyager bi-mode project goes ahead then Voyagers will still be able to run on diesel power.
It's noticeable that reference to the the e-Voyager project was absent in the HLOS.
There's hardly anything for XC in it, just some reference to "extra diesel trains" at Birmingham.
And the electric spine/E-W electrification is primarily for freight.
I hope DB/Freightliner etc are on board with this.
They have shown very little interest in electric freight to date.
 
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David Goddard

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Electrification through to Bournemouth would enable the whole Bournemouth - Manchester service to go electric, and would leave just two gaps (Birmingham-Derby and Sheffield - Doncaster) left before the Reading - Newcastle service could be the same.

Making the Desiros Dual Voltage would (unless a changeover on the move is permitted) mean all Bournemouth/Weymouth trains calling at Basingstoke (not necessarily a bad thing), and it will be interesting to follow how many Desiros would go over to Dual Voltage. Clearly all 45 of the Cl444s would be converted from the start, and I would expect most of the 450s to be, bearing in mind that Northam depot is at Southampton, so that all units could use either route (Basingstoke or Havant) to return to depot.
 

MCR247

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That's for primarily freight, the 25 kv to southampton, (which does raise question of where Freightliner are going to get enough electric locos from; would any 92s be available [although of course they could use 3rd rail already]?),
Take too much power and it would be wasteful to upgrade the power that much
 

LNW-GW Joint

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Electrification through to Bournemouth would enable the whole Bournemouth - Manchester service to go electric, and would leave just two gaps (Birmingham-Derby and Sheffield - Doncaster) left before the Reading - Newcastle service could be the same.

Making the Desiros Dual Voltage would (unless a changeover on the move is permitted) mean all Bournemouth/Weymouth trains calling at Basingstoke (not necessarily a bad thing), and it will be interesting to follow how many Desiros would go over to Dual Voltage. Clearly all 45 of the Cl444s would be converted from the start, and I would expect most of the 450s to be, bearing in mind that Northam depot is at Southampton, so that all units could use either route (Basingstoke or Havant) to return to depot.
You could imagine SWT (or its successor) being able to operate Desiro-type trains via Reading to Birmingham or beyond once the wires are up, starting west of Southampton if need be.
Or share the service with LM coming the other way.
XC will be ripe for remapping.

Desiros should be able to switch between AC/DC on the move.
 

SussexSpotter

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According to this press release on the Cabinet Office website, the 25KV conversion will reach Bournemouth

http://rnn.cabinetoffice.gov.uk/Pre...ification-of-the-Midland-Main-Line-67d1f.aspx

4. Planned improvements to deliver the ‘Electric Spine’ include:
· Midland Main Line electrification.
· Basingstoke to Reading electrification.

· Bournemouth to Basingstoke conversion from DC to AC electrification.
· Oxford - Nuneaton via Leamington - Coventry electrification.
· Midland Main Line Enhancement Bedford – Corby.
· Midland Main Line Leicester capacity improvements.
· Midland Main Line - Derby journey time and capacity improvements.
· Oxford - Bedford electrification.
So if Basingstoke - Bournemouth is to be converted from DC to AC, what will that mean for the Southern 377's on the London/Brighton - Southampton services. There arn't many 377/2's with the pantograph's and they are mainly used on the East Croydon - Milton Keynes services. Southern will need to get some additional 377's with pantograph's or convert some current 377's to have pantograph's otherwise I don't see how the service could opperate? :|
 

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I don't understand the logic in converting one stretch of tracks in the heart of 3rd rail land into overheads.

Surely it would be simpler to convert XC stock to dual-voltage and change over at Basingstoke (if Great Western is powered by overheads).
 

Schnellzug

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I don't understand the logic in converting one stretch of tracks in the heart of 3rd rail land into overheads.

Surely it would be simpler to convert XC stock to dual-voltage and change over at Basingstoke (if Great Western is powered by overheads).
I think the main reason is for freight, to give an electrified corridor (via the WCML and the MML, eventually) to Southampton Docks, mainly. Which would raise, as remarked previously, interesting questions about whether Freightliner were consulted on this, or whether the Government will expect them to fork out for a new fleet of electric locos, since I doubt that there'd be enough 90s to cater for it all, and the 86s could hardly be expected to last very much longer.
 

Minstral25

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So if Basingstoke - Bournemouth is to be converted from DC to AC, what will that mean for the Southern 377's on the London/Brighton - Southampton services. There arn't many 377/2's with the pantograph's and they are mainly used on the East Croydon - Milton Keynes services. Southern will need to get some additional 377's with pantograph's or convert some current 377's to have pantograph's otherwise I don't see how the service could opperate? :|
377/5's will be back well before this is done - probably enough units. Bigger problem is the Victoria to Southampton Central via Gatwick trains which get mixed with Bognor/Portsmouth units - guess they might get diverted
 

SussexSpotter

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I don't understand the logic in converting one stretch of tracks in the heart of 3rd rail land into overheads.

Surely it would be simpler to convert XC stock to dual-voltage and change over at Basingstoke (if Great Western is powered by overheads).
It has been mentioned that it is possibly a pilot scheme to see how effective it will be to use overheads on current third rail territory.

All I can think is that in decades to come the plan will be to convert the whole of the third rail land with overheads. Third rail is very outdated now anyway, so no real suprise the government are looking at converting DC to AC. The Thameslink route could become the next phase of overhead electrification, the Thameslink spine maybe?
 

bb21

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It has been mentioned that it is possibly a pilot scheme to see how effective it will be to use overheads on current third rail territory.

All I can think is that in decades to come the plan will be to convert the whole of the third rail land with overheads. Third rail is very outdated now anyway, so no real suprise the government are looking at converting DC to AC. The Thameslink route could become the next phase of overhead electrification, the Thameslink spine maybe?
Thanks for the clarification. Though I cannot stop feeling that there are other more pressing priorities than converting 3rd rail into OHLs.
 

swt_passenger

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Chaps, almost everything being discussed in this thread has already been discussed in detail in earlier threads over in the infrastructure forum, a few of which were getting quite long on Monday. The only new question/point was really about XC cutting back to Southampton...

It may be worth having a look there as well, it would be a bit difficult to link to all the exact areas unfortunately, there's so much of it...
 

TEW

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Thanks for the clarification. Though I cannot stop feeling that there are other more pressing priorities than converting 3rd rail into OHLs.
The 3rd rail equipment is coming up for renewal anyway so it's the best time to convert to OHLE, which is expected to be much cheaper in the long run.
 

ATW Alex 101

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To my personal knowledge I dont think the MAN-BMH service carries many people that stay on from end to end (apart from summer) I think people mainly use it for MAN-BHM, BHM-RDG,RDG-OXF,RDG-SOU,SOU-BMH.
 

Drsatan

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To my personal knowledge I dont think the MAN-BMH service carries many people that stay on from end to end (apart from summer) I think people mainly use it for MAN-BHM, BHM-RDG,RDG-OXF,RDG-SOU,SOU-BMH.
To an extent, yes. SOU - BHM can get very busy, although last year, I traveled on the 1727 MAN - BHM from Stockport and had a seat to myself; very surprising since I though the service would be very busy.

I think due to XC's high fares, most SOU - MAN travelers use Flybe from Southampton to Manchester!
 

ATW Alex 101

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To an extent, yes. SOU - BHM can get very busy, although last year, I traveled on the 1727 MAN - BHM from Stockport and had a seat to myself; very surprising since I though the service would be very busy.

I think due to XC's high fares, most SOU - MAN travelers use Flybe from Southampton to Manchester!
Quite right!
 

tbtc

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XC will be ripe for remapping
True - I think the future franchise map could go many ways before the end of the decade - if an EMU can run Manchester - Bournemouth then do we need a separate Cross Country franchise? Or could we incorporate it into XC etc?

My guess is that "Southampton" was mentioned in the press releases for the same reasons that "Leeds" was a few months ago re Transpennine electrification (because its an easier story to explain through the media than saying "Colton Junction"). Overhead electrification will happen to Bournemouth too (eventually)
 

MCR247

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To an extent, yes. SOU - BHM can get very busy, although last year, I traveled on the 1727 MAN - BHM from Stockport and had a seat to myself; very surprising since I though the service would be very busy.
Things on XC are that bad that you are expected to share seats with strangers?! :shock: :p
 
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