XC conductor shortages (August 2018)

[Robertj21a]

What utter rubbish! If I need access to a Solicitor/financial advisor/plumber/electrician etc on a weekend then in the ‘modern world’ with ‘modern working practices’ they should change their working hours to suit when I want them. Remember the world is changing and it seems you want it to change for everyone except you!

As usual, you're talking utter twaddle. The real world changed for me over 20 years ago, but it's obvious that you're still back in the dark ages (as usual) by comparison.

 

[Dave1987]

As usual, you're talking utter twaddle. The real world changed for me over 20 years ago, but it's obvious that you're still back in the dark ages (as usual) by comparison.

‘Modern working practices’ should apply to everyone regardless of profession. If the world is heading towards a 24/7 society that should apply to everyone! You come out with twaddle about removing collective bargaining agreements just because it doesn’t suit your ideology and dogma.

 

[Robertj21a]

‘Modern working practices’ should apply to everyone regardless of profession. If the world is heading towards a 24/7 society that should apply to everyone! You come out with twaddle about removing collective bargaining agreements just because it doesn’t suit your ideology and dogma.

Oh dear. Yet again you need to read what was written. Perhaps less ranting would help ?

 

[6Gman]

What utter rubbish! If I need access to a Solicitor/financial advisor/plumber/electrician etc on a weekend then in the ‘modern world’ with ‘modern working practices’ they should change their working hours to suit when I want them. Remember the world is changing and it seems you want it to change for everyone except you!

It is possible to obtain the services of a 24 hour plumber/electrician (if you can find one and are willing to pay a premium) 24 hours a day; it is possible to obtain the services of a duty solicitor 24/7 if you are arrested. Why anyone should want a financial advisor at 3am I'm not sure ...

But what this has to do with the employment conditions of XC staff I'm not sure.

 

[Dave1987]

It is possible to obtain the services of a 24 hour plumber/electrician (if you can find one and are willing to pay a premium) 24 hours a day; it is possible to obtain the services of a duty solicitor 24/7 if you are arrested. Why anyone should want a financial advisor at 3am I'm not sure ...

But what this has to do with the employment conditions of XC staff I'm not sure.

It has to do with peoples perception of what should be forced on any rail staff regarding weekend working. My argument is if we are going to a 24/7 society then you should be able to access any service any day of the week.

 

[45107]

It is possible to obtain the services of a 24 hour plumber/electrician (if you can find one and are willing to pay a premium) 24 hours a day; it is possible to obtain the services of a duty solicitor 24/7 if you are arrested. Why anyone should want a financial advisor at 3am I'm not sure ...

But what this has to do with the employment conditions of XC staff I'm not sure.

It is about changing the Conditions of Service. As you say, a plumber can be obtained 24/7 at a premium.
Why should rail staff move to 24/7 without getting something in return, when the current terms don’t stipulate this ?
A lot of comments indicate that staff would prefer Sundays included in the working week but the TOCs are not prepared to do this, possibly due to the increased cost of this guaranteed staff coverage(increased staff numbers ?)
The unions, love em or loathe em, work solelyfor the benefit of their members as you would expect and long may that continue. Any strikes are voted for by the members and not Cash and exec of the RMT or Whelan and ASLEF.
My job involves Weekends as part of the working week, requiring Annual leave to be taken if I don’t want to work a Sunday. That was part of the conditions when I took the job, not something that was imposed. I knew what I was going into.

All staff who do not have committed or working week Sundays have the freedom not to work under their conditions of employment. A change to this needs to be negotiated, not imposed.

 

[nedchester]

It has to do with peoples perception of what should be forced on any rail staff regarding weekend working. My argument is if we are going to a 24/7 society then you should be able to access any service any day of the week.

It’s about supply and demand. There is a demand for more rail services on a Sunday but not for many other services. Your comment borders on the idiotic!

 

[nedchester]

It is about changing the Conditions of Service. As you say, a plumber can be obtained 24/7 at a premium.
Why should rail staff move to 24/7 without getting something in return, when the current terms don’t stipulate this ?
A lot of comments indicate that staff would prefer Sundays included in the working week but the TOCs are not prepared to do this, possibly due to the increased cost of this guaranteed staff coverage(increased staff numbers ?)
The unions, love em or loathe em, work solelyfor the benefit of their members as you would expect and long may that continue. Any strikes are voted for by the members and not Cash and exec of the RMT or Whelan and ASLEF.
My job involves Weekends as part of the working week, requiring Annual leave to be taken if I don’t want to work a Sunday. That was part of the conditions when I took the job, not something that was imposed. I knew what I was going into.

All staff who do not have committed or working week Sundays have the freedom not to work under their conditions of employment. A change to this needs to be negotiated, not imposed.

Which is why a first step is to employ new entrants on a Sunday inclusive contract. Current employees can remain with their present T&Cs but may wish to have their union negotiate a deal to include Sunday’s.

 

[pt_mad]

It's worth noting that some Tocs prefer a Sundays outside the working week arrangement (voluntary). Reason being, it can be cheaper for them. Rosters based on 6 days as the working week mean you can work the entire rosters on principals of groups of 3.

I.e. 1 on earlies, one on lates and one on a rest day at any and all times. Plus a few people as relief. It works across guards, conductors, drivers, station booking offices, dispatch.

So you can staff a station 18 hours a day 6 days a week with 3 staff plus a floating area relief. Now put Sundays in, you may end up needing another 2 permant staff. That's 2 more lots of expense for the TOC, national insurance implications, pensions, benefits. A good many Tocs would rather run with less permanent staffing costs and cover Sundays as voluntary. Especially over stations which, if they go unstaffed for a few Sundays doesn't really bother the TOC all that much, after all, they're not paying the wage if they're not there.

The downside is of course you get periods of cancelled services on Sundays where train crew choose to take their days off. Public perception is obviously quite negative about this at times but it's the necessary downside of running with less staff and having Sundays as voluntary overtime. It may work out more economically sensible for tocs to run this way, paying the fines where trains are cancelled but not having a larger long term staffing bill. Perhaps some of them have decided this way is cheaper than running all services but needing a shed more permanent staff.

Also the railway does tend to be rather dead on a Sunday morning outside of London and the other main capitals. It only really kicks off at 10 or 11am.

 

[Dave1987]

It’s about supply and demand. There is a demand for more rail services on a Sunday but not for many other services. Your comment borders on the idiotic!

In your opinion they are idiotic! How do you know there isn’t demand? Seems that you are also stuck in the dark ages. Or is it that you wish to force so workers to work when you want them to but heaven help if they try and force other industries into weekends being normal working days. Seems you wish to force ‘modern working practices’ on the railways but not on others that sounds very elitist.

I find your general attitude on things creates the ‘us and them’ way of thinking which drives sections of our society apart which creates hostility and resentment. Both are never good for the overall economy.

 

[Carlisle]

It is about changing the Conditions of Service. As you say, a plumber can be obtained 24/7 at a premium.
Why should rail staff move to 24/7 without getting something in return, when the current terms don’t stipulate this ?
A lot of comments indicate that staff would prefer Sundays included in the working week but the TOCs are not prepared to do this, possibly due to the increased cost of this guaranteed staff coverage(increased staff numbers ?)
The unions, love em or loathe em, work solelyfor the benefit of their members as you would expect and long may that continue. Any strikes are voted for by the members and not Cash and exec of the RMT or Whelan and ASLEF.
My job involves Weekends as part of the working week, requiring Annual leave to be taken if I don’t want to work a Sunday. That was part of the conditions when I took the job, not something that was imposed. I knew what I was going into.

All staff who do not have committed or working week Sundays have the freedom not to work under their conditions of employment. A change to this needs to be negotiated, not imposed.

I think your being slightly disengenous with the real facts, as all train crews Sunday’s were previously rostered (something like 1 in 4-6) which you were obliged to work if you couldn’t arrange cover.

Today’s problems mostly occur on the TOCs that opted to make Sunday’s entirely voluntary. meaning the first course of action in any emerging dispute (as is the case on XC) is almost inevitably to ditch your entirely optional Sunday. Ok not really the unions fault, mostly down to rather poor, short sighted and weak previous management regimes and /or DFT at the time being perfectly happy to sanction such decisions.

 

[Mag_seven]

I just look at this in black and white terms - if you (the TOC) are advertising a service on a Sunday, then its your responsibility to deliver it. If you can't, get out and let someone in who can. A company such as M&S or Sainsbury's or whoever would soon be in trouble if they advertised their stores as open on a Sunday but then closed half of them due to no staff.

 

[pt_mad]

I just look at this in black and white terms - if you (the TOC) are advertising a service on a Sunday, then its your responsibility to deliver it. If you can't, get out and let someone in who can. A company such as M&S or Sainsbury's or whoever would soon be in trouble if they advertised their stores as open on a Sunday but then closed half of them due to no staff.

Presumably a supermarket would have to employ enough regular staff to cover 7 days a week though. Rather than hire enough to cover 6 days and rely on voluntary overtime for the 7th day. When you are talking a few thousand frontline staff in each TOC, that's a heck of a lot of extra staff you're going to need to bring them into the compulsory week.

Regards getting an alternate TOC in who can deliver it, the contracts would transfer over to any new TOC on tupe arrangements so the same situation would still exist. And it may be there are 3 bidders, all of whom wish to run on the 6 day rostered week, to save fixed costs. In which case no alternative company would change things.

However, a third option would be to leave the 6 day working week and offer attractive incentives for volunteering for Sunday's. Like many Monday to Friday workers get for weekends. After all it is their own day off if they want it.

 

[Robertj21a]

Presumably a supermarket would have to employ enough regular staff to cover 7 days a week though. Rather than hire enough to cover 6 days and rely on voluntary overtime for the 7th day. When you are talking a few thousand frontline staff in each TOC, that's a heck of a lot of extra staff you're going to need to bring them into the compulsory week.

Regards getting an alternate TOC in who can deliver it, the contracts would transfer over to any new TOC on tupe arrangements so the same situation would still exist. And it may be there are 3 bidders, all of whom wish to run on the 6 day rostered week, to save fixed costs. In which case no alternative company would change things.

However, a third option would be to leave the 6 day working week and offer attractive incentives for volunteering for Sunday's. Like many Monday to Friday workers get for weekends. After all it is their own day off if they want it.

They will have to get away from relying simply on volunteers in order to ensure proper Sunday services. Not much point in advertising scheduled services if nobody volunteers - or it can be used by unions to threaten disruption.
I really can't see why there can't be simple options for new and/or existing staff who are prepared to have Sundays in their contract.

 

[theironroad]

Presumably a supermarket would have to employ enough regular staff to cover 7 days a week though. Rather than hire enough to cover 6 days and rely on voluntary overtime for the 7th day. When you are talking a few thousand frontline staff in each TOC, that's a heck of a lot of extra staff you're going to need to bring them into the compulsory week.

Regards getting an alternate TOC in who can deliver it, the contracts would transfer over to any new TOC on tupe arrangements so the same situation would still exist. And it may be there are 3 bidders, all of whom wish to run on the 6 day rostered week, to save fixed costs. In which case no alternative company would change things.

However, a third option would be to leave the 6 day working week and offer attractive incentives for volunteering for Sunday's. Like many Monday to Friday workers get for weekends. After all it is their own day off if they want it.

Well there's a few fair on these fora who think train crew should do what they are told 24/7/365 and doff their cap to the foreman each day rather than be allowed to have 'days off' so that their train can run.

 

[45107]

I think your being slightly disengenous with the real facts, as all train crews Sunday’s were previously rostered (something like 1 in 4-6) which you were obliged to work if you couldn’t arrange cover.

Today’s problems mostly occur on the TOCs that opted to make Sunday’s entirely voluntary. meaning the first course of action in any emerging dispute (as is the case on XC) is almost inevitably to ditch your entirely optional Sunday. Ok not really the unions fault, mostly down to rather poor, short sighted and weak previous management regimes and /or DFT at the time being perfectly happy to sanction such decisions.

As a Traincrew Roster Clerk back in the good/bad old days of BR I can assure you that whilst crew may have had rostered turns on a Sunday, there was no obligation to work them.
Back in those days there was rarely a problem covering vacant turns due to the lowish basic pay of both Drivers and Guards and the carrot of enhanced pay for working. Things have changed since then.

I agree with your 2nd paragraph.

As an aside, I don’t whether it has been put to the test where disciplinary action has been taken for someone failing to work ‘commited’ overtime shifts.
Making Sunday a part of the working week will solve this anomaly.

 

[nedchester]

Well there's a few fair on these fora who think train crew should do what they are told 24/7/365 and doff their cap to the foreman each day rather than be allowed to have 'days off' so that their train can run.

No one is saying that! The TOCs need to employ more train crew and the contract should have the same number of hours in the working week as is currently the case. The TOCs should have it written into their franchise agreements and new staff should be taken on with new contracts with Sunday’s in their working week.

 

[Robertj21a]

Well there's a few fair on these fora who think train crew should do what they are told 24/7/365 and doff their cap to the foreman each day rather than be allowed to have 'days off' so that their train can run.

Who has said that ?
.

 

[dk1]

No one is saying that! The TOCs need to employ more train crew and the contract should have the same number of hours in the working week as is currently the case. The TOCs should have it written into their franchise agreements and new staff should be taken on with new contracts with Sunday’s in their working week.

But as said many times that would go against traincrew manning agreements between management/unions & unless negotiated with them there will end up being a far greater issue for the company in the meantime. It really isn't in either sides interest to cause that much grief. Lots of talking needed yet & no quick solution on the horizon. Anglia Railways, First Great Eastern & West Anglia still exist as far as traincrew are concerned. All options to harmonise them have failed miserably since 2004.

 

[Mugby]

Getting back to the original point of the thread, the conductor shortages seem to affect the Nottingham - Cardiffs and the Stanstead - Birminghams rather than NE/SW services.

A few questions for those who may know:

The problem has been going on for a few weeks now, how long is it likely to continue?
Is there any possibility that NE/SW services will be affected?
Is it likely to have any substantial impact on August Bank Holiday services?

 

[dk1]

Getting back to the original point of the thread, the conductor shortages seem to affect the Nottingham - Cardiffs and the Stanstead - Birminghams rather than NE/SW services.

A few questions for those who may know:

The problem has been going on for a few weeks now, how long is it likely to continue?
Is there any possibility that NE/SW services will be affected?
Is it likely to have any substantial impact on August Bank Holiday services?

Only one A in Stansted. It's likely to run & run now unless XC management wake up & all routes will be seriously affected especially at weekends.

 

[Spankthemonkey]

Getting back to the original point of the thread, the conductor shortages seem to affect the Nottingham - Cardiffs and the Stanstead - Birminghams rather than NE/SW services.

A few questions for those who may know:

The problem has been going on for a few weeks now, how long is it likely to continue?
Is there any possibility that NE/SW services will be affected?
Is it likely to have any substantial impact on August Bank Holiday services?

Hugely dependent on rdw at this time of year. Massive impact on the 170 routes. May choose voyagers to cover certain shortages to Notts, Leicester and Cardiff but they are not route cleared beyond Leicester. The Derby blockade ia due to run till october so it could drag. Not a huge % voted for full strike (55 of 107 eligable to vote) but a strike day has still been called for weds nevertheless.

Sunday services are always rammed on XC, not so much a commuter toc, so again, Sunday service disruption will effect many.

 

[jamesontheroad]

It now occurs to me (since starting this thread more than 100 replies ago) that I will be relying on XC to get me to Stansted Airport over the Bank Holiday weekend. I wish I hadn't asked.

 

[pt_mad]

No one is saying that! The TOCs need to employ more train crew and the contract should have the same number of hours in the working week as is currently the case. The TOCs should have it written into their franchise agreements and new staff should be taken on with new contracts with Sunday’s in their working week.

To put Sundays inside the working week, there would probably need to be a decent fixed payoff to staff as well because essentially they're going to lose their overtime pay they used to earn if they chose to work a Sunday. You'd end up back on the basic wage with no Sundays and no guarantee of overtime being offered to boost your income. So they'd have to be bought out or it'd likely be seen as imposing hardship imo.

As for having Sundays written into franchise agreements, whether this is possible I don't know? The tocs are private companies so whether the state can impose specific employment contract terms on staff I don't know?
They may be able to say '95 percent of Sunday services must run as part of the franchise'. And then it'd be up to the TOC how they addressed this.

But it's not simply going to be a case of recruiting another quarter worth of staff and bringing in compulsory Sundays. It's going to require great expensive re fixed staff costs increasing and reduced industrial relations and potential industrial action.

Bring in new conditions for new staff, and presumably these may still have to be agreed with the unions as job descriptions are usually agreed with the unions per operational grade. You'd also end up with a two tier workforce which could be difficult in the future as well as causing resentment.

 

[pt_mad]

Hugely dependent on rdw at this time of year. Massive impact on the 170 routes. May choose voyagers to cover certain shortages to Notts, Leicester and Cardiff but they are not route cleared beyond Leicester. The Derby blockade ia due to run till october so it could drag. Not a huge % voted for full strike (55 of 107 eligable to vote) but a strike day has still been called for weds nevertheless.

Sunday services are always rammed on XC, not so much a commuter toc, so again, Sunday service disruption will effect many.

When is the strike day then and will much run that day?

55 out of 107 for strike? Is the threshold over 50 percent must vote for it to count (trade union bill)? If so this just exceeds it.

 

[Robertj21a]

To put Sundays inside the working week, there would probably need to be a decent fixed payoff to staff as well because essentially they're going to lose their overtime pay they used to earn if they chose to work a Sunday. You'd end up back on the basic wage with no Sundays and no guarantee of overtime being offered to boost your income. So they'd have to be bought out or it'd likely be seen as imposing hardship imo.

As for having Sundays written into franchise agreements, whether this is possible I don't know? The tocs are private companies so whether the state can impose specific employment contract terms on staff I don't know?
They may be able to say '95 percent of Sunday services must run as part of the franchise'. And then it'd be up to the TOC how they addressed this.

But it's not simply going to be a case of recruiting another quarter worth of staff and bringing in compulsory Sundays. It's going to require great expensive re fixed staff costs increasing and reduced industrial relations and potential industrial action.

Bring in new conditions for new staff, and presumably these may still have to be agreed with the unions as job descriptions are usually agreed with the unions per operational grade. You'd also end up with a two tier workforce which could be difficult in the future as well as causing resentment.

I don't think there's any need at all to make any 'decent fixed payoff' unless their contract stipulated that they are guaranteed overtime - but surely that conflicts with the whole point of the debate concerning the shortage of staff, because they have to be volunteers ?
I see no reason at all why existing staff can't be offered the choice of staying on their current terms - or switching to new terms where Sundays are part of their (revised) contract. Further new recruits can then be employed on the terms where Sundays are included.

 

[pt_mad]

I don't think there's any need at all to make any 'decent fixed payoff' unless their contract stipulated that they are guaranteed overtime - but surely that conflicts with the whole point of the debate concerning the shortage of staff, because they have to be volunteers ?
I see no reason at all why existing staff can't be offered the choice of staying on their current terms - or switching to new terms where Sundays are part of their (revised) contract. Further new recruits can then be employed on the terms where Sundays are included.

The way the Sundays work at quite a few tocs is you have your rostered Sundays available to you (voluntary overtime). You have time to decide to take up the offer to work them or to be not available. But they will be offered to you as the agreements state how many Sundays you will be offered as a minimum.

They are voluntary but you will be offered the agreed amount of Sundays e.g. 1 in 3 etc as a matter of course per the agreements. That is so sundays are available fairly and are allocated fairly. It is in effect guaranteed overtime for those who want it but there's no obligation to take up the offer. Guaranteed but not compulsary. It's also possible to pass on Sundays offered to you to others who have told you they would like more Sundays.

 

[philthetube]

No one is saying that! The TOCs need to employ more train crew and the contract should have the same number of hours in the working week as is currently the case. The TOCs should have it written into their franchise agreements and new staff should be taken on with new contracts with Sunday’s in their working week.

To use simple numbers,

if a depot requirement is 100 staff mon/fri and 50 sat/sun ignoring Sundays there are 550 shifts to cover 5 day week ignoring leave etc that is 110 drivers, include Sunday and you have 600 shifts needing 120 drivers to cover the rosta.

 

[Carlisle]

As a Traincrew Roster Clerk back in the good/bad old days of BR I can assure you that whilst crew may have had rostered turns on a Sunday, there was no obligation to work them.
.

Ok, thinking back to the late 1980s, a driver I knew who was a regular churchgoer, and as you say had no problem giving away almost all of his rostered Sunday’s, but unless I’d misunderstood something, always claimed there’d be the very occasional time he’d have to work one..

 

[45107]

Ok, thinking back to the late 1980s, a driver I knew who was a regular churchgoer, and as you say had no problem giving away almost all of his rostered Sunday’s, but unless I’d misunderstood something, always claimed there’d be the very occasional time he’d have to work one..

I can’t comment on that although I am surprised that in BR days it was enforced for traincrew. (In a previous life as a booking office clerk, it was a case of find cover if we can’t, unless part of an annual leave block).
The depots that I worked at never had a problem covering Sunday’s.
One had rostered turns so that crew knew in advance what to expect. There was rarely a shortage of volunteers to cover vacant turns.
The other had a ‘guaranteed Sunday’ but no expectation of what turn it would be until the Sunday sheet was posted on late Thursday. Admittedly that gave the roster clerk a bit of poetic licence as it was an opportunity to roster staff to routes that weren’t in their link (thus keeping up route knowledge). Vacancies after this were covered by a ‘buckshee’ list (forgot that term until seeing it earlier in the thread) where eagle eyed crew would study it to see if they had a claim as someone who had worked less Sunday’s than them was now working.