XC Voyagers

[Mordac]

Moving away from HSTs for a moment, what are peoples thoughts on the likelihood of VTWC (or the next owner of the West Coast franchise) replacing all their Voyagers with bi-modes? The resulting cascade of Voyagers would solve many of XC's overcrowding issues at a stroke.

Does anyone make tilting bi-modes?

 

[Chester1]

Does anyone make tilting bi-modes?

No one makes tilting trains for UK loading gauge full stop. The Voyager and Pendolino designs no longer meet safety regs so there cannot be an order to lengthen units let alone order new ones.

 

[gg1]

No one makes tilting trains for UK loading gauge full stop. The Voyager and Pendolino designs no longer meet safety regs so there cannot be an order to lengthen units let alone order new ones.

Hmm, interesting. If there was the desire for one would it be faesible to design a new tilting train which met the current regulations or would the costs involved be prohibitively high?

 

[BanburyBlue]

You could call it... the Advanced Passenger Train

 

[Chester1]

Hmm, interesting. If there was the desire for one would it be faesible to design a new tilting train which met the current regulations or would the costs involved be prohibitively high?

Yes it could be done but it won't be because HS2 services will displace most Pendolinos in 2026. The most likely ToC to take them would be the next TPE franchise because tilting makes them nearly 15 minutes faster Manchester to Edinburgh / Glasgow than the class 397s will be.

 

[Mordac]

Yes it could be done but it won't be because HS2 services will displace most Pendolinos in 2026. The most likely ToC to take them would be the next TPE franchise because tilting makes them nearly 15 minutes faster Manchester to Edinburgh / Glasgow than the class 397s will be.

HS2 services will displace pends, but they’ll do nothing for the punters in Holyhead, Shrewsbury, or any other place that currently enjoys WCML services to somewhere away from the wires.

 

[PaxmanValenta]

The HST's are not 'ancient', sure they are 40 years old but could have another 20 years service life if its economically worth while to resolve the issues they do have, i.e the main ones being the doors and discharge toilets.

Not everyone who retires stays retired. It know at least half a dozen people who are still working in their 80s having already retired and returned to work.

Regarding the HST's being squeaky, they are no worse than many a more modern train, including the Voyergers.

Crash protection wise the MK 3 carriages are still up there with the best, if anything they were over engineered and stil have years of safe operation ahead of them if you take into account the assessment done for Chiltern railways which concluded (if I remember correctly) that they have a 20 year life ahead of them. One thing is certain,they won't splinter to bit if they crash, far from it. The power cars are also in a good condition and are as safe as any other locomotive.

The top speed of the HST's is a 125, faster than many trains on the network. Sure they are not the quickest off the mark, but that certain doesn't mean they 'trundle along slowly'

The HST are train of the 1970's. In my view thay were way ahead of their time, still being considered by many as a modern viable train 40 years later. Other classes,such as the Voyergers were hardly leading edge when introduced. This is one of the reasons that they are highly regarded, they have staying power, are are still viable years after lesser trains have been withdrawn. When the Voyergers hit 40 (or even 30) will the operators have any work for them or be looking to upgrade them...I doubt it, but ScotRail and to a lesser extent GWR are doing that with the HST's, and that's not just down to a shortage of available stock.

One thing I do agree with you is in relation to the Cross Country operations, they are not really suitable for that route, and never really were. But that doesn't mean that they don't have future, as ScotRail are about to prove.

I agree. XC should have more than just 5 HSTs in their fleet. Voyagers are cramped, windows not lining up with seats meaning no view for many of the seats, in all totally uncomfortable for the long XC routes such as Penzance to Aberdeen. Ok not everyone travels the full route but Plymouth or Bristol to Newcastle is a popular part of that route.
Just a pity XC couldn't get some of GWRs HSTs.

Another idea that would be great is if it was possible would be to use Diesel hauled intercity 225's from Virgin EC when they replace them with 800s.

 

[PaxmanValenta]

Why? Put a new engine and driveline in and they're basically a new train mechanically.

The bodyshells are solid, as are the bogies. Those are the really expensive bits. Anything else you can, if economic, build on top. I refer you back to houses. My house was built in 1970 and it's not due to be knocked down each week because I have refurbished it. Having done so, it is in the same condition as a new one would be, better in some ways because it is of more traditional, more solid construction, being brick/breeze block rather than wooden framed.

Trains are not cars. Cars are designed to last about 10 years / 150K miles. Trains are designed to last basically indefinitely.

I think the interiors of the Voyagers need to be totally rebuilt. Is it necessary to have large accessible toilets in every coach? The HSTs don't have them in all coaches. Maybe just one coach could be an accessible coach. Also too much space is wasted on overly large vestibules. That would free up more space for seating and allow most seats to line up with windows.

The coupling system should also be modified with delener couplings replaced with more convebtional couplings allowing a wider range of locomotive to rescue the Voyagers.

I think at the end of the day Class 220/221 were a bad idea on the XC route, a legacy XC inherited from Virgin. It would be better if they were used on other routes and replaced with some HSTs from GWR. I'd even like to consider the prospect of some way of using Diesel hauled MK 4 stock on the XC route.

 

[sprinterguy]

Hmm, interesting. If there was the desire for one would it be faesible to design a new tilting train which met the current regulations or would the costs involved be prohibitively high?

Alstom can, or at least have recently, offer a new variant of Pendolino for the UK market if the buyer is willing to pay the right price.

 

[sprinterguy]

The coupling system should also be modified with delener couplings replaced with more convebtional couplings allowing a wider range of locomotive to rescue the Voyagers.

Dellner couplers are pretty much a modern standard (if not necessarily compatible between classes!) to allow reliable "intelligent" communication between relatively sophisticated Train Management Systems. I would think that it would be a comparatively complicated and much more manually involved process to achieve the same level of communication via more traditional couplings.

Bear in mind also that, in the modern age, the closest assisting locomotive can often be many miles away, and it is at least as likely that another member of the same class will be called upon to assist. Complete failures of Voyager units are also rare (providing they avoid sea water ), as the redundancy provided by having multiple engines within a unit comes into play. A unit will generally be pulled from service and sent to Central Rivers at the earliest opportunity if it drops down onto less than three engines.

 

[sprinterguy]

Is it necessary to have large accessible toilets in every coach? The HSTs don't have them in all coaches. Maybe just one coach could be an accessible coach.

This sounds like a plausible option if the arrangement of the more space efficient class 180 is still valid, with one disabled toilet shared between first and standard class wheelchair spaces in adjacent coaches.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Voyagers and Pendolinos are coupling and TMS compatible so they can rescue each other, as well.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This sounds like a plausible option if the arrangement of the more space efficient class 180 is still valid, with one disabled toilet shared between first and standard class wheelchair spaces in adjacent coaches.

I don't know if 2019 changes that, but there is plenty of stock about in which wheelchair spaces are available in Standard only. I'd be interested to know how many wheelchair users travel in First given that its main benefit (bigger seats) is not something they will be able to enjoy.

 

[ainsworth74]

This sounds like a plausible option if the arrangement of the more space efficient class 180 is still valid, with one disabled toilet shared between first and standard class wheelchair spaces in adjacent coaches.

If not just adopt the 5-car IEP approach and give any wheelchair customers a free upgrade to 1st class?

 

[Mugby]

It was said earlier that Voyagers couldn't be split to provide extra carriages for strengthening the remainder because it would result in a surfeit of surplus driving cars which would be of little or no use.

Couldn't two driving cars be re-configured as one trailer by losing the cabs and joining the inner halves in a sort of cut and shut arrangement?
I'm sure it wouldn't be beyond the capability of Wabtec or the like.

 

[dk1]

Voyagers and Pendolinos are coupling and TMS compatible so they can rescue each other, as well.

As proved on test runs. The Voyager achieved 102mph hauling a Pendolino.

 

[221129]

Voyagers and Pendolinos are coupling and TMS compatible so they can rescue each other, as well.

Only the Virgin examples.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Only the Virgin examples.

Did XC modify theirs to break compatibility? They were all Virgin to start with.

 

[221129]

Did XC modify theirs to break compatibility? They were all Virgin to start with.

No. The Virgin West Coast Voyagers were modified.

 

[PaxmanValenta]

My main issue with Voyagers is that they're uncomfortable. I'm 6'3" and I find them very, very uncomfortable if I'm sitting next to someone. If I've got two seats to myself or one of the extra leg room seats at the end of the carriage, they're OK, but if I'm in a regular airline seat, I can't even fit my knees behind the seat in front.

I know there's profit to be had, but I'd like to see a refurb where they spread out the seats a little better - (perhaps lining them up with the windows) so that taller people like me can sit more comfortably.

Totally agree, but it was Virgin to blame for putting them on the cross-country route in the first place and getting rid of the HSTs, then XC inherited the Voyagers from Virgin.
The cross country route is the longest train route in Britain. The Penzance to Aberdeen train is a Voyager and whilst I know few travel the entire route, a Voyager is totally unsuitable for such a long journey.

I really do not know what Richard Branston was thinking when he decided Voyagers would be a great idea on the XC route certainly passenger comfort was of lowest priority.

 

[Darandio]

I really do not know what Richard Branston was thinking when he decided Voyagers would be a great idea on the XC route certainly passenger comfort was of lowest priority.

Probably too busy concentrating on his pickle venture at the time.....

In all seriousness though, i'm fairly certain Mr Branson didn't pick the trains, certainly not alone anyway.

 

[PaxmanValenta]

You cannot shift trains around like you owned the chess board.
The best outcome for XC is some sort of shared bid/operation with East Midlands when they both come up for rebidding next year.
EMids is already earmarked for bi-modes, thanks to the electrification cancellation.
But they will be separate bids so who knows what will be included/selected for each.
And you can't tell open access operators what trains they should run.
Transpennine is already "sorted" in the medium term with its weird mixture of new stock and 185s.
I guess longer term plans might change when the TP electrification decisions are made (still in limbo).
Chiltern you can forget about for 3 years until its turn comes round.
XC franchise remapping is possible in 2019, but the DfT doesn't seem to like surgery after the TSGN issues.

This is how rail privatisation should have been. Shared services on the same route for instance the Plymouth to Newcastle XC route could have been operated using XC, GWR, East Midlands, VTEC and South West Trains. Perhaps on different days and times.
Likewise the Plymouth to Paddington route could have operated with GWR, XC and GWR and so on...TOC would have to agree on sharing times of their services.

This form of privatisation would have provided the much needed competition, kept prices low and ensured that TOCs provide the best rolling stock for passenger comfort. If that was the case GWR would provide HST comforts such as Pullman service on the Plymouth to Newcastle XC route while XC may have less comfortable Voyagers but would have to drop their prices to avoid losing customers to GWR or get some decent trains to replace their Voyagers.

 

[MG11]

The seating was replaced and re-upholstered around 2014, it was just done using the same design, it was the same with the carpets. IMO, they Voyagers are good units but I think they would benefit from an interior repaint, the cream/beige walls are perhaps a little dated and drab now, as is the early noughties wood effect, painting the walls white and the lighting strip in XC burgundy colour would give a fresh and corporate feel. The seats coulbe re-upholstered in the same material as EMT Meridian Standard seats, supplied by Doncaster Trimmers, the seat backs could be painted in a modern grey, like the First Class seats are, then the seat handles would need to be repainted to meat visually impaired passengers' requirements (a reason why STD wasn't fitted with XC burgundy seats, they would need to repaint the handles too).
Other than that, I think they are nice trains, they can get a little dirty on busy parts of the route, but reinstating travelling cleaners might help (I won't hold my breath!).

 

[Tetchytyke]

The problem with the Voyagers has always been their size. That's why they're cramped- Arriva deliberately put more seats in when they took on the franchise, in order to combat overcrowding. A smaller seat pitch isn't great, but it beats standing up.

Voyagers brought about an increase in passenger numbers on XC, and so they now can't cope on the busiest trains. But saying they're less comfortable than a selection of clapped out Mk2fs, well...

 

[221129]

Other than that, I think they are nice trains, they can get a little dirty on busy parts of the route, but reinstating travelling cleaners might help (I won't hold my breath!).

You mean the cleaners that are out and about all day every day?

 

[aar0]

the seat handles would need to be repainted to meat

Eeww. Hopefully not fresh?

 

[Rail Blues]

Don't quite understand the silly comments of scrapping or being wasteful when it comes to driving vehicles. They've got a good 20yrs useful life left & with a bit of rejigging of interiors are a good & very reliable unit.

Hear, hear!

By no means my favourite unit, but the Greek chorus of 'send them to booths' is tiresome and unreasonable. Often proposed by those who dream up cockeyed Heath Robinson schemes to keep their favourite pieces of life expired rolling stock on the rails. A curious case of double think from an element on this board who regard the network as a massive trainset on which their favourite pieces of traction can rumble around for ever more.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I doubt many passengers would have an issue with travelling in the low-density layout in the former VTWC hybrid coaches.

 

[brel york]

A little more detail added to what Neil already provided would be upgraded main lighting in both classes with the original solid opaque defusers replaced by a slatted version. 1st class seats received a dust pink moquette with winged headrests, with saloon end panels covered in a carpet style tufted veneer.

It was actually carpet we stuck to the body end using contact adhesive , same style of refurb was applied to Mk2 f vehicles , standard class had dark grey floor carpet with a chevron middle runner to match the body end laminate, plus red moquette seat covers , new toilet Lino and coir matting in the vestibule, first had pink moquette seats carpeted body ends , new pleated curtains,toilet Lino and vestibule coir matting

 

[brel york]

Hear, hear!

By no means my favourite unit, but the Greek chorus of 'send them to booths' is tiresome and unreasonable. Often proposed by those who dream up cockeyed Heath Robinson schemes to keep their favourite pieces of life expired rolling stock on the rails. A curious case of double think from an element on this board who regard the network as a massive trainset on which their favourite pieces of traction can rumble around for ever more.

Lol good point