Yellow Warning Panel

[Giugiaro]

Good evening everyone!

I want to understand a little bit more about the Yellow Warning Panel, namely, how much is "too much" and "too small" and what can be placed on it, and what can't.

Renfe and CP (suposedly) entered the tender for the Greater Anglia franchise and I'm trying to imagine what would be the livery for CP if the Greater Anglia franchise was awarded.

CP on recent years has got a certain "love" for yellow trains and recently even made a small iteration of the "stripped livery" from the 80's and 90's with black strips over yellow.

So, what of these could do better in the UK?

 

[ainsworth74]

The requirements are laid out in the relevant Rail Safety and Standards Board (RSSB) Railway Group Standard which can be found here.

In a nutshell there has to be a yellow area of at last 1m² on the front of the vehicle. This can be split by an end gangway if necessary but in that case each area has to be a minimum of 0.4m². The colour used also has to be one of the following:

• RAL 1003, RAL 1004, RAL 1018, RAL 1021, or RAL1023 from the RAL Classic Colour Collection
• BS 4800 Item 08E51
• BR81 Item 202
• NCS (Natural colour system) target value 1080-Y 10-R or 1475-Y 11R
• EC 222.69.79 in the Eurocolour table

More details can be found in the linked standard at section C1.1 onwards.

 

[Jonny]

As with many things, it's governed by the Railway Group Standards. Feed "railway group standards yellow warning panel" (without the quotes) into Google and this gives the official specification as the first link:
http://www.rgsonline.co.uk/Railway_...ck/Railway Group Standards/GMRT2483 Iss 1.pdf

Sometimes, it even found its way into other liveries such as the BR "Dutch" livery for civil engineering trains as seen in the yellow-and-gray sides here: http://www.railalbum.co.uk/diesel-electric-locomotives/br-class-33-1.htm

 

[ainsworth74]

Sometimes, it even found its way into other liveries such as the BR "Dutch" livery for civil engineering trains as seen in the yellow-and-gray sides here: http://www.railalbum.co.uk/diesel-electric-locomotives/br-class-33-1.htm

Another more recent example like that would be be GBRf's livery which has the front in orange but still has to include a yellow warning panel as seen here.

 

[Giugiaro]

GM/RT2483 was it? Even though I tried, I got the wrong document.

Judging from the information in C1.2.2 and Appendix 6.1, the area in yellow should be uninterrupted with other elements not exceeding 10mm in width. In this case, we could say that logos and numbers should be automatically excluded from any yellow surface, independent of how much area the panel covers?

So, what about a full yellow coloured front like on image 1 and 4? Should there be an area coloured with another yellow specified in the RGS?

Stripes are officialy out of question since those are reserved for shunters.


It also makes it feel like a train in the UK should not have any kind of livery based around yellow along it's lenght. It's not something implied in the document, but I haven't seen such before, if we don't count Network Rail...

 

[swt_passenger]

The yellow area is a minimum, therefore the whole front being the same is OK, in fact the whole vehicle can be painted in the same shade of yellow, as in certain Network Rail test trains etc.

Most Multiple units have a far larger yellow area than is required, and it is often incorporated into the overall livery by wrapping it round the cab, as in SWT Desiros etc.

 

[90019]

It also makes it feel like a train in the UK should not have any kind of livery based around yellow along it's lenght. It's not something implied in the document, but I haven't seen such before, if we don't count Network Rail...

The old Merseyrail livery was mostly yellow.

 

[jopsuk]

The GB Railfreight livery is a odd one, as the yellow part of their livery is too orange to be compliant, so they have a regulations-compliant yellow panel- eg like so

 

[talltim]

It also makes it feel like a train in the UK should not have any kind of livery based around yellow along it's lenght. It's not something implied in the document, but I haven't seen such before, if we don't count Network Rail...

Network Rail yellow isn't the same shade as warning panel yellow, on purpose

 

[starrymarkb]

The Mendip Rail 59s show how little yellow is needed to comply

 

[Tetchytyke]

How come London Underground stock which operates on Network Rail metals don't have to comply with the yellow warning panel?

 

[Bigfoot]

Answered here. http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=39270

 

[RailAleFan]

I've noticed that Pendolinos seem to go around with their mouths wide open quite a bit which doesn't leave a huge amount of yellow on display...

 

[GrimsbyPacer]

​

I've noticed that Pendolinos seem to go around with their mouths wide open quite a bit which doesn't leave a huge amount of yellow on display...

EMT also have trains with no mouths.
I remember reading a book about InterCity and it said the rules on yellow panels were changed when the Swallow livery was introduced on HSTs to allow for s red stripe around the front.

 

[swt_passenger]

I've noticed that Pendolinos seem to go around with their mouths wide open quite a bit which doesn't leave a huge amount of yellow on display...

A derogation against the standard was issued in 2004. They are allowed to run like that, because they still provide 92% of the required yellow area.

"Train front-end is fully compliant with the requirements of clause 5.2 (b) except in the degraded mode when the coupler hatch is in the raised position or has been removed from the front-end.

With the coupler hatch raised / removed the effective forward-facing continuous area of yellow surface when viewed head on is c. 0.92 m_. The minimum specified area (for operation up to 200 km/h) is 1.00 m_."

 

[cjmillsnun]

​

EMT also have trains with no mouths.
I remember reading a book about InterCity and it said the rules on yellow panels were changed when the Swallow livery was introduced on HSTs to allow for s red stripe around the front.

That was only used experimentally and then reverted back to a full yellow nose.

 

[sprinterguy]

That was only used experimentally and then reverted back to a full yellow nose.

That's surely not right. Intercity swallow livery with the red and white stripes wrapped around the cab front, merging with the upper half of the light clusters, was the standard scheme. Only a very small number of power cars, possibly just a selection of East Coast allocated examples and primarily the buffer fitted power cars, received the full yellow end in the early days of the swallow scheme.

 

[cjmillsnun]

That's surely not right. Intercity swallow livery with the red and white stripes wrapped around the cab front, merging with the upper half of the light clusters, was the standard scheme. Only a very small number of power cars, possibly just a selection of East Coast allocated examples and primarily the buffer fitted power cars, received the full yellow end in the early days of the swallow scheme.

Apologies, I had it the wrong way round.

The full yellow was the experimental.

HST #43 038 Intercity Swallow Livery by Formulaphoto Railway Artwork, on Flickr

NOTE: not my work, and I understand this is a composite, based on some poor quality original photos.

 

[swt_passenger]

There's a new thread in wnxx about the intention to replace the group standard in December this year to remove the yellow panel requirement as long as certain requirements for twin headlamps are met. This will not apply to 200 km/h (125 mph) or above though.

Certain front end colours will become 'recommended' and others will not be permitted.

 

[GrimsbyPacer]

There's a new thread in wnxx about the intention to replace the group standard in December this year to remove the yellow panel requirement as long as certain requirements for twin headlamps are met. This will not apply to 200 km/h (125 mph) or above though.

Certain front end colours will become 'recommended' and others will not be permitted.

It will be quite weird to see a train with no yellow.
I think it's the best colour for the ends.
Imagine a Sprinter with it's cab painted red, white, green.
It would look strange.
HSTs may become 124mph trains so the TOCs get more advert room.

 

[swt_passenger]

It will be quite weird to see a train with no yellow.
I think it's the best colour for the ends.
Imagine a Sprinter with it's cab painted red, white, green.
It would look strange.
HSTs may become 124mph trains so the TOCs get more advert room.

I don't really see green being on an approved list to be fair...

 

[GrimsbyPacer]

I don't really see green being on an approved list to be fair...

Lime green is what some flourescent jackets use. All colours can be bright.
What colours would be approved?
I guessed Red's okay because London Underground use it.
White is used on DBs Intercity trains in Germany, one of which visited the UK.
And Green is the colour all the oldest BR diesel railcars were painted. Some heritage line like the Ecclesbourne Valley use it still.
No problem's on those trains.

 

[jopsuk]

There's a new thread in wnxx about the intention to replace the group standard in December this year to remove the yellow panel requirement as long as certain requirements for twin headlamps are met. This will not apply to 200 km/h (125 mph) or above though.

Certain front end colours will become 'recommended' and others will not be permitted.

regardless of a "permitted" list, I'd like to see various current operators liveries mocked up without the yellow- eg Stagecoach group (SWT/EMT) "white" and "blue" liveries would be red at the front, the "red" livery would be blue (possibly a "not permitted"? it's quite a dark blue). Anyone got the photo editing skills to show the various classes?

I'd imagine that Scotrail Saltire Blue, First Blue, Northern Blue, Cross Country Maroon etc are all far too dark to be on the "permitted" list surely. London Midland's brighter green may be more acceptable than pastel green used by Southern.

 

[GrimsbyPacer]

regardless of a "permitted" list, I'd like to see various current operators liveries mocked up without the yellow- eg Stagecoach group (SWT/EMT) "white" and "blue" liveries would be red at the front, the "red" livery would be blue (possibly a "not permitted"? it's quite a dark blue). Anyone got the photo editing skills to show the various classes?

I'd imagine that Scotrail Saltire Blue, First Blue, Northern Blue, Cross Country Maroon etc are all far too dark to be on the "permitted" list surely. London Midland's brighter green may be more acceptable than pastel green used by Southern.

The 185s were blue before they got to the UK at the ends.

 

[dosxuk]

The 185s were blue before they got to the UK at the ends.

Are you sure about that? The only images of a blue ended 185 I've ever seen was of the one which was having the front rebuilt after hitting an iceberg.

 

[Tommy1581]

Are you sure about that? The only images of a blue ended 185 I've ever seen was of the one which was having the front rebuilt after hitting an iceberg.

Is this a joke?
Do you have a link for the photo?

 

[dosxuk]

Is this a joke?
Do you have a link for the photo?

https://www.flickr.com/photos/37190-dalzell/sets/72157631193202896/

 

[GrimsbyPacer]

[http://www.paul-zimmer.de/pzswt/first.htm

Are you sure about that? The only images of a blue ended 185 I've ever seen was of the one which was having the front rebuilt after hitting an iceberg.

I remembered seeing an all blue 185 in Rail Magazine when it was still in Germany. The internet searches aren't helpful.
But these German pics in the link above show a blue 185 with a white panel underneath the drivers window. That was painted blue on at least one train.

 

[dosxuk]

[http://www.paul-zimmer.de/pzswt/first.htm


I remembered seeing an all blue 185 in Rail Magazine when it was still in Germany. The internet searches aren't helpful.
But these German pics in the link above show a blue 185 with a white panel underneath the drivers window. That was painted blue on at least one train.

And yet the two unit's behind have yellow fronts. I don't believe from that that they were running around with a completed paint job with blue ends that were subsequently painted yellow just before they came to the UK.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

https://www.flickr.com/photos/37190-dalzell/sets/72157631193202896/

That looks very much nicer like that.