Yet another Coalition education screw up

[43021HST]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-31023685

The number of state secondaries in England said to be underperforming has more than doubled amid exam changes.

Some 330 schools failed to get 40% of pupils gaining five good GCSEs including English and maths, and making the expected progress.

This rise, from 154 last year, comes after ministers toughened exams and banned re-sits and some vocational qualifications from school tables.

Meanwhile scores of top private schools have ended up bottom of the tables.

These include renowned schools such as Eton, Harrow, Winchester and St Paul's Boys'.

I'm thankful I received the majority of my education during the relatively stable period of the previous Labour government (cue wrath of RUKs conservatives). When the goalposts remained 'sort of' stationary.

I really wish the UK wouldn't use education as a political hot potato, children need stability, not this flip flopping that dominates the rest of British politics.

 

[Bletchleyite]

In the end if you want to learn, you will. The biggest problem in this country is kids who don't want to learn.

Neil

 

[table38]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-31023685

I'm thankful I received the majority of my education during the relatively stable period of the previous Labour government (cue wrath of RUKs conservatives). When the goalposts remained 'sort of' stationary.

Ah yes, the Labour wonder years when school results magically got better and better every year!

Were pupils actually getting cleverer, or were Labour making the exams easier? Perhaps the fact that Youth Unemployment (16-24 year olds) soared by 42% from 652,000 in 1997 to 930,000 by 2010 is a clue.

However the problem with the current results appears to be partly due to the paragraphs you accidentally snipped from your quote of the BBC article. Schools using IGSEs (arguably a more rigorous qualification) will score nothing because the Government decided to no longer automatically included in the performance measures.

 

[ainsworth74]

Were pupils actually getting cleverer, or were Labour making the exams easier? Perhaps the fact that Youth Unemployment (16-24 year olds) soared by 42% from 652,000 in 1997 to 930,000 by 2010 is a clue.

What was it in 2007 seeing as the last few years of that Labour government did have a small recession

 

[Yew]

I always thought that banning resits was a terrible idea that would have a diabolical effect on marks..

 

[table38]

What was it in 2007 seeing as the last few years of that Labour government did have a small recession

It got progressively worse during the last government. Whether that was due to the recession, or the number of school leavers (16-24) having spent a higher proportion of their education under Labour's vision of an education system, I'm sure I have no idea

 

[IanD]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-31023685



I'm thankful I received the majority of my education during the relatively stable period of the previous Labour government (cue wrath of RUKs conservatives). When the goalposts remained 'sort of' stationary.

I really wish the UK wouldn't use education as a political hot potato, children need stability, not this flip flopping that dominates the rest of British politics.

They've made exams tougher so fewer people pass. Go figure :roll: The one good thing is the cosseted "elite" at Eton etc are failing at a more alarming rate. Not that it will affect their chances of Daddy getting them a place at Oxbridge and a job in the city.

 

[CC 72100]

This rise, from 154 last year, comes after ministers toughened exams and banned re-sits and some vocational qualifications from school tables.

To be honest, these qualifications that are 'equivalent to 3 GCSE's' and the ilk have been a complete swizz from day one, designed to artificially improve the school's performance in league tables, which in itself is the product of the marketisation of education.

A good friend of mine for example, due to her school being a 'struggling' school and so they adopted these 'equivalent to' GCSEs, has no formal GCSE qualifications in science due to the course that the school had chosen, as it was 'easier' to do well in this and thus have better A-C figures than in traditional GCSEs. If that is not an example of a school thinking only for itself and its image as opposed to the long-term future of its pupils then I don't know what is!

 

[Tetchytyke]

Youth unemployment rates are a bit of a red herring, given that students are not treated as unemployed. I'd say ramping up tuition fees to £3000 (Labour) and then £9000 (Conservatives), as well as the abolition of EMA, was more of an issue than academic ability.

If kids can't afford to be students then they'll sign on. Anyone with half a brain (so that excludes most of BIS then) would see that one happening.

The fragmentation of the education system is not helping. The stunning intellect that is Michael Gove, and his successor Nicky "I hate gay people and abortion because I'm so religious" Morgan decided to divert all the money from proper schools with proper teachers to his pet "Free School" project, and now acts all surprised that schools run by a selection of generally well-meaning but incompetent religious fundamentalists are failing. Between that and the Academy concept*- American corporates and yet more religious fundamentalists masquerading as innocent little charities- it's no wonder the education system is falling apart under the Tories.

(*yes I know they were a Labour idea, but they have been heavily revised and expanded under the Tories).

Whilst I'm on the subject, I find the constant comparisons to China- an education system based on nothing but plagiarism- to be rather tiresome.

 

[bb21]

Whilst I'm on the subject, I find the constant comparisons to China- an education system based on nothing but plagiarism- to be rather tiresome.

What a poor excuse of an argument.

Plagiarism is a problem, but so is it in other countries. You cannot beat the achievements of 15-year-olds in international comparisons because such problems are not present in secondary schools.

What do you know about the Chinese education system?

I know because I spent half of my schooling days there. The standards of achievement of an average 15-year-old would put any average 15-year-old in this country to shame. That is not down to plagiarism, it is down to hard work, pushy parents, and a culture with a huge emphasis on doing well at school.

That is not to say we should copy their methods, which is flawed in many ways, but plagiarism is by no means a representative phenomenon and your accusation is wildly inaccurate.

 

[NSEFAN]

When was the last time that the Education secretary had ever worked in a state school?

 

[43021HST]

(removed post)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Ah yes, the Labour wonder years when school results magically got better and better every year!

Were pupils actually getting cleverer, or were Labour making the exams easier? Perhaps the fact that Youth Unemployment (16-24 year olds) soared by 42% from 652,000 in 1997 to 930,000 by 2010 is a clue.

However the problem with the current results appears to be partly due to the paragraphs you accidentally snipped from your quote of the BBC article. Schools using IGSEs (arguably a more rigorous qualification) will score nothing because the Government decided to no longer automatically included in the performance measures.

Might I suggest that results got better and better every year because the teachers would actually get to grips with the curriculum due to it remaining 'stable' and being able to hone their teaching skills around it.

Youth unemployment has risen due to the lack of jobs, not under achievement.

I 'accidentally' snipped it because it prevents the quote being too wordy, I thought the articles introduction would suffice, rather than copying the whole thing. Looks rather unwieldy when people do that.

 

[TheKnightWho]

In the end if you want to learn, you will. The biggest problem in this country is kids who don't want to learn.

Neil

And you change that by changing the schooling.

You don't just give up on them.

 

[table38]

I 'accidentally' snipped it because it prevents the quote being too wordy, I thought the articles introduction would suffice, rather than copying the whole thing. Looks rather unwieldy when people do that.

Of course, heaven forbid you were selectively quoting, although sometimes it does help people form an opinion if they are presented with all of the facts

 

[ainsworth74]

And you change that by changing the schooling.

You don't just give up on them.

Yeah but that requires effort, time and funding. Far easier to just say the kids are useless and there is nothing to be done and wasn't it so much better back in the 'good old days'.

 

[Bletchleyite]

And you change that by changing the schooling.

It needs more than changing schooling. It needs a culture shift in this country, including parents even if they themselves missed out. That education is the only way you will get anywhere in life. And is why other countries will beat us in the long term. In India, for instance, kids will willingly walk 10 miles so they can learn. Imagine that here?

Neil

 

[bb21]

The day the government stops messing around with the curriculum and the exams is the day comparison of results will be meaningful. There is no problem whether the exam papers are easy or difficult, as long as difficulties remain consistent. There is a problem however if things change all the time and you have different exam boards all setting different papers with different mark schemes.

So, have a nationwide exam board. It is ridiculous that we have several exam boards all with different thresholds for grades. It is not rocket science to see that A grades from ten exam boards will contain far more inconsistencies than A grades from three exam boards, than A grade from one exam board. That is regardless of how many quality control exercises you do.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That is not down to plagiarism, it is down to hard work, pushy parents, and a culture with a huge emphasis on doing well at school.

Exactly. There is a view here that school doesn't matter and university is about drinking.

If we want to continue to succeed on a global scale, that all has to change.

Neil

 

[Oswyntail]

Yeah but that requires effort, time and funding. Far easier to just say the kids are useless and there is nothing to be done and wasn't it so much better back in the 'good old days'.

A part of the problem with league tables for schools is that they are based on the performance of children. Almost by definition, this is volatile, and one highly disruptive child can wreck a whole year group. But there is also the sneaky defence that is hinted at here, the "you mustn't write kids off, they all work incredibly hard, so league tables tell us nothing" approach. We should try to find a way to assess the school and what it does, rather than the students. I have absolutely no doubt that, in my 13 years as a parent of secondary-age children, the quality of teaching plummetted, often with the same teachers, though there were still occasional beacons. Yet there seems to be no public way of knowing that. There may be 1001 reasons for this, of course.

 

[CC 72100]

Exactly. There is a view here that school doesn't matter and university is about drinking.

No over-generalisations there at all then.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Exactly. There is a view here that school doesn't matter and university is about drinking

Yet takings in most students union bars are 60% down on where they were 15 years ago and complaints about insufficient contact time with lecturers are through the roof.

Don't let facts get in the way of your stereotypes though.

bb21, without getting too specific, a big part of my job relates to dealing with academic misconduct in higher education. However I was unfairly generalizing. I'm just fed up of hearing how other countries are amazing but were all thick and lazy.

Oswyntail, I thought the league table of "improvement" was a surprisingly good idea. It's a shame it seems to have died a death when the more selective state schools complained they were being penalised for having talented pupils from day one.

I read tonight that failing schools will be closed down and turned into academies or free schools. I can't think why more schools seem to be failing. I know my mother's school was ok, reasonable, until the governors refused to become an academy. Suddenly they were failing. By magic they're ok again now they're an academy.

 

[TSR :D]

I would honestly say it was easier back then. Looking at science exam papers today, I would certainly say I would have gotten one or two grades below the original grade if I had attempted it back then.

I am of opinion that the grade inflation "problem" is mainly attributed to students becoming even more educated than before and there are even more resources on the internet to go over the bits you don't understand.

Medicine school is becoming even more competitive. Few years back then, you could get in if you worked hard. Nowadays, having ability not to procrastinate until last minute and is willing to work hard isn't enough to get you in.

You need also to be one of those kids who simply breezes through secondary school with good grades without having to work hard and works hard through A-Levels and medicine school exams with a cut-off set at much higher level than before.

 

[Busaholic]

When was the last time that the Education secretary had ever worked in a state school?

I can't tell you whether it was the last time, but I remember Michael Stewart being made Education Secretary in Harold Wilson's Labour government of 1964 and his background was certainly as a schoolmaster. I was particularly interested in him as we shared similar backgrounds in the same geographical area, although I was only a teenager then, but always interested in politics.

 

[matt_world2004]

One thing, I think that has made pass rates go up is the advent and adoption of internet. While the exams themselves haven't got any easier. The internet has literally given most school age children a library at home. Maybe there should be a new standard of education that reflects this change and demand more from the children. I can bet the average teenager has a 50wpm typing speed. Something that would have got you an brilliant admin job 20 years ago.

 

[ainsworth74]

The internet has also given them access to past papers and mark schemes and anyone with half a brain cell will soon spot that very similar questions with nearly identical answers nearly always appear in every paper. 'Learn' the correct answer and that can easily boost your score.

On a number of examinations the last thing I did the night before was read through question papers and marking schemes and it proved very effective.

 

[Bletchleyite]

One thing, I think that has made pass rates go up is the advent and adoption of internet. While the exams themselves haven't got any easier. The internet has literally given most school age children a library at home. Maybe there should be a new standard of education that reflects this change and demand more from the children. I can bet the average teenager has a 50wpm typing speed. Something that would have got you an brilliant admin job 20 years ago.

Arguably modern education should no longer be about knowing facts, it should be how to research them and discard the rubbish. If I want to know how to do something, I Google it. I don't need to remember it then have an exam on it.

Neil

 

[CC 72100]

What sort of exams are, in your view, based on facts? I think back to my A levels an GCSEs, and it was certainly not remebering facts - you can't learn 'facts' about literature to write an essay on it. You certainly can't just learn 'facts' to succeed in languages. Even in subjects where remebering information was important, such as history, a knowledge of facts wouldn't get you very far if you had no way of working out what information you should draw on in each question, how to develop answers and have a good writing style.

 

[TheKnightWho]

They've made exams tougher so fewer people pass. Go figure :roll: The one good thing is the cosseted "elite" at Eton etc are failing at a more alarming rate. Not that it will affect their chances of Daddy getting them a place at Oxbridge and a job in the city.

:roll:

Yes, this is exactly how it works.

I'm getting sick of having my uni discredited by people who just assume everyone bought their way in. We didn't. No-one here did, wherever they came from.

Obviously you get an advantage by going to a well-funded school in that you'll likely get a better education due to smaller class sizes and a culture geared towards exams, but this isn't the 1950s anymore. Many well-funded state schools do just as well, and it's because they can actually compete, and not because they're famous or because of the parents of the kids paying their way in.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Yeah but that requires effort, time and funding. Far easier to just say the kids are useless and there is nothing to be done and wasn't it so much better back in the 'good old days'.

Exactly.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Exactly. There is a view here that school doesn't matter and university is about drinking.

If we want to continue to succeed on a global scale, that all has to change.

Neil

Yes, people do do that. But ultimately at the end of the day it's about learning to balance work and pleasure. If you can't do that, you'll simply drop-out or fail.

Obviously we need to work on ensuring that doesn't happen, but the way you do that is through encouraging education and getting people to realise the importance of education in terms of their long-term prospects.

On the one hand we have people saying no-one gives a s***, but on the other those same people say "too many people go to uni - it's devaluing degrees". You can't have it both ways.

 

[Bletchleyite]

What sort of exams are, in your view, based on facts? I think back to my A levels an GCSEs, and it was certainly not remebering facts - you can't learn 'facts' about literature to write an essay on it. You certainly can't just learn 'facts' to succeed in languages. Even in subjects where remebering information was important, such as history, a knowledge of facts wouldn't get you very far if you had no way of working out what information you should draw on in each question, how to develop answers and have a good writing style.

Very true. I just can't think of any situation in real life at all where I would do anything "closed book" unless I had had ample time to prepare for that specific scenario in advance.

The issue with too much weight on coursework is, of course, the dishonest. Otherwise I'd support far greater weight on open-book coursework.

Neil
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Yes, people do do that. But ultimately at the end of the day it's about learning to balance work and pleasure. If you can't do that, you'll simply drop-out or fail.

This is true. But people who drop out and fail at education generally (not just university education) tend to end up as a financial drain on society. Not all of them (think Bill Gates) but an awful lot. So it raises the question - how do we improve things so they won't?

Neil

 

[TheKnightWho]

This is true. But people who drop out and fail at education generally (not just university education) tend to end up as a financial drain on society. Not all of them (think Bill Gates) but an awful lot. So it raises the question - how do we improve things so they won't?

That is quite simply not true, statistically. They don't, on average, do as well as they otherwise might, but it's not like they all go out and go on benefits.

And if we had the answer to that I'm not sure we'd be having this conversation.