York & Leeds FTR Buses to be pooled onto Leeds - Bradford

[starrymarkb]

The problem with Gosport Eclipse service is it now takes longer to get from Gosport Ferry to Fareham bus station than on a conventional bus

Isn't that because it operates as a Rail Link bus to the railway station before continuing to the bus station

 

[Crossforth]

Isn't that because it operates as a Rail Link bus to the railway station before continuing to the bus station

I dunno, I just know that there were a lot of complaints. I don't know whether the public have accepted the new service now or not as I'm back in Leeds.

 

[Schnellzug]

Isn't that because it operates as a Rail Link bus to the railway station before continuing to the bus station

Thereby is the problem, isn't it, with this idea of "Integrated Public Transport" that Councils love spouting on about. The great majority of the People don't want Integrated Public Transport, they want a Bus that will take them into Town and not have to go miles out of its way to the Station in the hope that one or two people might wish to catch or get off a Train.

 

[radamfi]

Integrated transport, where buses are used as feeders to metro/tram services, seem to work in advanced European countries. The concept is not properly understood in English speaking countries for some reason.

 

[tbtc]

Integrated transport, where buses are used as feeders to metro/tram services, seem to work in advanced European countries. The concept is not properly understood in English speaking countries for some reason.

I think its generally understood here, and generally understood that only a minority of bus passengers are going on to use the train - most are using the bus between their house and the town/city centre (not going further afield).

 

[142094]

Integrated transport, where buses are used as feeders to metro/tram services, seem to work in advanced European countries. The concept is not properly understood in English speaking countries for some reason.

It was in Tyne and Wear until deregulation.

 

[Schnellzug]

It was in Tyne and Wear until deregulation.

The idea where buses terminated at Metro stations and people were therefore forced onto the Metro in order to get into town, wasn't that how it was done? Sure way to artificially inflate Metro ridership figures; until people got fed up and drove all the way, that is.

 

[radamfi]

The fact that we are even having this discussion means that integrated transport is not properly understood. This is pretty basic stuff and the fact that we are wasting time with this argument is the main reason why British transport is the way it is. There is genuine ignorance and I doubt it will ever change.

Just two, very basic, things to begin with.

1. When you make a single journey by bus in the UK and Ireland, you usually have to pay more than if you change buses than if you travelled the exact route on a through bus. Indeed, if you change buses in the UK it is not even considered to be a single trip!

2. Eclipse doesn't really stop at Fareham railway station. It only stops on the road nearby. You even have to go through an uninviting subway to get from the station to the bus stop. The fact that this is advertised as a good rail connection shows the how embarrassing the British situation is. Where integrated transport really exists, the buses stop right outside the rail station, not across the road.

 

[bb21]

2. Eclipse doesn't really stop at Fareham railway station. It only stops on the road nearby. You even have to go through an uninviting subway to get from the station to the bus stop. The fact that this is advertised as a good rail connection shows the how embarrassing the British situation is. Where integrated transport really exists, the buses stop right outside the rail station, not across the road.

... and should be dropping passengers off in town before the railway station if otherwise it causes inconvenience to people going to the shops.

 

[Schnellzug]

But how many of the people on the typical bus want to get a Train? Probably about 5%, if that. Should the other 95% be inconvenienced in the interests of a utopian ideal?

 

[starrymarkb]

If you get the 83 (non busway not via station) from Gosport to Fareham the journey is 30m, the E2 (Busway via Railway Station) takes 32m.

It's not that big difference (unless you get the E1 which does a tour of the estates before joining the busway)

 

[WestCoast]

But how many of the people on the typical bus want to get a Train? Probably about 5%, if that. Should the other 95% be inconvenienced in the interests of a utopian ideal?

However, you can turn that around and say that if there were more bus services that provided easy access to railway stations, then more people would be encouraged to take public transport door-to-door rather than driving to the station, or getting a taxi/lift. Offering plusbus tickets on local buses would also help (some sort of ticket exchange scheme could be introduced I'm sure).

Radamfi is right in that in integrated transport utopias like the Netherlands, people trot out of the station and onto the awaiting buses or trams right outside. The schedules are sometimes even co-ordinated, which I have never seen in Britain because bus and train are strangely seen as separate industries or in some cases, competitiors! Effectively, there is an interchange like that in every sizeable town. However, that is/was also a town planning issue.

 

[radamfi]

I wonder why we are fixated on the specific circumstances of the Eclipse service? It only goes near the railway station because the busway alignment goes that way. No doubt if the busway was built along the old route then they probably wouldn't even bother going to the railway station. It isn't a deliberate attempt to 'impose' integration. It just happens to go near the station.

Look at a typical bus/tram map in an advanced country. Most if not all services go to the railway station. But they don't usually make a long detour to the station before going to the town centre. If the town centre is on the way to the station then services will stop in the town centre before the station. Only if the station is before the town centre the bus/tram may possibly terminate at the station, although if there are cross city services then most routes serve both the station and the town centre. But even if the bus/tram doesn't go to the town centre there will be plenty of convenient connecting services available and you don't pay extra for changing.

 

[142094]

The idea where buses terminated at Metro stations and people were therefore forced onto the Metro in order to get into town, wasn't that how it was done? Sure way to artificially inflate Metro ridership figures; until people got fed up and drove all the way, that is.

That is one of the misconceptions about how the buses were integrated with the Metro at the time. I accept that in some situations, such as terminating buses at Gateshead which once ran through to Newcastle was a bit of a silly idea, but the fact is that most bus routes were changed to serve areas where the Metro couldn't, and run close to at least one Metro station so an easy interchange could be made. Contrast that with bus routes that now actively compete with the Metro, and yet fail to serve areas that actually need decent bus networks.

Many of the problems that the Metro and integration of the bus network actually addressed in 1980 have come back to haunt us - increased car ownership, higher bus fares and lower patronage. I've never heard anyone but bus companies say that deregulation was a success.

 

[radamfi]

There are a few places where buses could be considered better now than before deregulation. These are mostly historic towns where there has been an concerted effort by the local authority to discourage town centre driving and which had a mediocre NBC service before deregulation. Before deregulation, PTE areas had much better services than those run by the NBC, and most of them had low fare policies, so the PTE areas have seen the worst patronage declines.

 

[tbtc]

But how many of the people on the typical bus want to get a Train? Probably about 5%, if that. Should the other 95% be inconvenienced in the interests of a utopian ideal?

I totally agree - it would be handy if my local bus route directly served Sheffield train station, but then it'd be useful if it also served the major hospitals and various other things - realistically though most people are only using it to go to/from the city centre, so to divert every bus to/from the train station would be a waste of resources

Look at a typical bus/tram map in an advanced country

Is it not a bit patronising to call the UK "unadvanced" because not every bus service is based around trains?

Yes, there are examples where we could cut services short and divert them to serve a station (like the Gateshead example that 142094 mentioned), but that just encourages people to drive (rather than have to change modes of transport half way through their journey).

Bus services are generally commercial in the UK, which means running to/from where people actually want to go - the fact that they generally don't go out of their way to serve train stations suggests that this isn't seen as a priority for most passengers.

 

[142094]

The only good thing about terminating short at Gateshead was it reduced the number of buses using the bridges to get into Newcastle, which is another problem that has come back. This also gave priority to buses serving areas which were away from Metro lines, and also express buses, which were much more reliable and could get into Newcastle city centre faster after the Metro system had opened.

Even though the interchange between bus and Metro at Gateshead is actually very easy, the travelling public don't see it that way. It is effectively an extra change which puts people off.

 

[radamfi]

Is it not a bit patronising to call the UK "unadvanced" because not every bus service is based around trains?

Yes, there are examples where we could cut services short and divert them to serve a station (like the Gateshead example that 142094 mentioned), but that just encourages people to drive (rather than have to change modes of transport half way through their journey).

Bus services are generally commercial in the UK, which means running to/from where people actually want to go - the fact that they generally don't go out of their way to serve train stations suggests that this isn't seen as a priority for most passengers.

Have you actually studied PT services in those European countries which manage to have lower car dependency than the UK despite being more wealthy? Before I learned about Dutch, Swiss etc. local transport I only knew the British way. Now that I have since spent much time looking at route maps and timetables in other countries and travelled extensively, especially in the Netherlands, I now know the truth. I'm planning to move to NL eventually and I am learning Dutch so I can integrate properly into society.

Take Rotterdam for example. You don't see many buses clogging up the city centre. Almost all bus routes terminate at outlying metro stations where an easy connection can be made. There is no point of these buses continuing to the city centre. It is much quicker to change onto the metro, and doesn't cost any more.

 

[142094]

A lot of it needs a carrot and stick approach - investment in bike facilities on one hand, congestion charging or similar on the other.