York to Harrogate Season Ticket

[daniel3982]

Hi,

I am about to start working in Harrogate for a short while and so need to get the train there. Only thing is being in Healthcare I have to work some early/late shifts.

The first train from York to Harrogate doesn't get in til after my shift starts (around 7:30) on a weekday and isn't til gone 12 on a Sunday :roll:!

It is possible to get to my shift on time by going via Leeds (although it does take an age).

Would my £33 a week season ticket from York to Harrogate allow me to travel via Leeds at times when that was the only way to make the journey?

 

[cuccir]

For ticket route purposes, Harrogate is part of the York routeing group (this is all described in the routeing guide which is an extremely complex document if you're not used to it). That means tickets are valid only on direct services or the shortest distance, which clearly is not via Leeds. Therefore your ticket is not valid for travel York > Leeds > Harrogate.

 

[323235]

If you went via Leeds on a weekday it would be possible to get to Harrogate for 0643 or 0704.
On Sunday if you travel via Leeds you can get there for 1031 or 1128.

A York - Leeds Any Permitted Season ticket which is £46.50 for 7 Days would cover you for both journeys.

 

[island]

I've just checked the list of easements and there's nothing there that would exclude you from the rule here. Looks like you're out of luck on this one.

 

[blackfive460]

I am not a ticket expert and I haven't checked the routing guide (mainly because understanding it is beyond me!) but what about a York - Pannal season?

 

[cuccir]

I am not a ticket expert and I haven't checked the routing guide (mainly because understanding it is beyond me!) but what about a York - Pannal season?

Still in the York routeing group, as are all the stations on the Harrogate Line. I agree that this seems unfair; I'm slightly surprised that there isn't an easement specific to early morning services. But afraid no luck - you'd need to the York>Leeds ticket for both routes to be valid.

 

[clagmonster]

Pannal is a related station to Leeds and York.
http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/routeing_point_identifier.pdf page 47

As York is a routeing point, in this case there is a common routeing point, so "the permitted route is direct via the shortest distance from the origin to the destination over which a regular scheduled passenger train service operates."
http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/RSPDocuments/instructions.pdf page 2

This is the case with all stations on the Harrogate Loop, so for a ticket from York to a Harrogate loop station to be valid via Leeds, the shortest route would have to be via Leeds.

In the case of Pannal, York-Harrogate-Pannal is 23.75 miles, York-Leeds-Pannal is 25.5+15=40.5 miles, so Leeds is not a valid route. The tipping point is Horsforth, which is 33 miles via Harrogate and 25.5+5.75=31.25 miles via Leeds.
Mileages are from the Network Rail timetables:
http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse documents/eNRT/Dec10/timetables/Table35.pdf
http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse documents/eNRT/Dec10/timetables/Table40.pdf
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
A 7 day season York-Horsforth is £44, which would be valid via both routes and cheaper than the York-Leeds season.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

A 7 day season York-Horsforth is £44, which would be valid via both routes and cheaper than the York-Leeds season.

Ignore that, the York-Horsforth is routed Harrogate these days to remove anomolies with Leeds fares. The cheapest valid ticket for both routes is York-Leeds.

 

[Paul Kelly]

The £46.50 York - Leeds season additionally allows travel via Selby, Doncaster and Wakefield in case that would ever be useful.

If I understand correctly, via Harrogate isn't actually a permitted route between Leeds and York and is only allowed by the direct train rule - so you couldn't travel from Leeds to Harrogate on a train that was only going as far as Knaresborough for example; it would need to be a through train to York?

Edit - although perhaps that is just a mistake in the routeing guide, that map TP doesn't show the route via Harrogate - a lot of other more "long distance" maps do show that route...

 

[323235]

Wouldn't this bit of the Routing Guide come into play in this instance as the York-Leeds "Route Harrogate" season is cheaper than the Any Permitted.

An "any permitted" ticket cannot be used for
travel on a route not listed in the Routeing Guide for which a higher priced
route specific fare exists. It can be used on any route not listed in the
Routeing Guide for which a lower priced route specific fare exists.

Or does this have to be specifically a comparison between Single/Return fares as per fare check?
Is via Harrogate cheaper in this case as I haven't checked?

 

[yorkie]

If I understand correctly, via Harrogate isn't actually a permitted route between Leeds and York and is only allowed by the direct train rule

It is a mapped route, as the maps show York and Leeds with no station in between. There are no RPs between York and Leeds. Therefore the line appears to apply to both via Garforth and via Harrogate equally.

 

[Anvil1984]

As someone who works the route and has been mulling it along, would agree Leeds - York any permitted season would be the most relevant ticket for that one, valid via both routes

One for everyone as there doesnt seem to be an easement for this one, one off ticket travelling from Harrogate to York round first thing on a Sunday or last thing on a night when theres no direct service, what is the appropriate single / return? fare

 

[Solent&Wessex]

The £46.50 York - Leeds season additionally allows travel via Selby, Doncaster and Wakefield in case that would ever be useful.

..

Not any more it's not. Map DO was removed from the list of options for York - Leeds at the last routeing guide update. York - Leeds tickets are now only valid direct via Micklefield or Harrogate depending on the routeing on the ticket.

 

[daniel3982]

So a York - Leeds season ticket looks like my only option at the moment? Would I ever come across any problems trying to board the train at Harrogate or Starbeck in the direction of York with this ticket (or for that matter leave should there be a ticket check at say Harrogate). Also a bit worried by the comment above saying that I wouldn't be able to travel on Leeds-Knaresborough services as they don't go to York?

Single fare in the morning from York to Harrogate is around £17+ when I last checked compared to around £6+ direct.

 

[cuccir]

So a York - Leeds season ticket looks like my only option at the moment? Would I ever come across any problems trying to board the train at Harrogate or Starbeck in the direction of York with this ticket (or for that matter leave should there be a ticket check at say Harrogate). Also a bit worried by the comment above saying that I wouldn't be able to travel on Leeds-Knaresborough services as they don't go to York?

Single fare in the morning from York to Harrogate is around £17+ when I last checked compared to around £6+ direct.

It seems that this ticket is valid on all services between Leeds and Harrogate, as stated by Yorkie and Anvil1984. This includes trains that terminate at Harrogate/Knaresborough. As it is a season ticket you can use it between any stops en route, so its valid from Harrogate or Starbeck to York.

 

[Anvil1984]

Yep Leeds - York season ticket valid on all services and intermediate stations in between, you can use the Leeds - Harrogate / Knaresboros if you soi wish

 

[yorkie]

Would I ever come across any problems trying to board the train at Harrogate or Starbeck in the direction of York with this ticket (or for that matter leave should there be a ticket check at say Harrogate). .

In the highly unlikely event of a guard refusing to accept the (perfectly valid) ticket, hand over no cash, and obtain a UPFN (unpaid fare notice), which you would immediately appeal, and let us know.

 

[Anvil1984]

Knowing the guards on the line and being one, there will be no issues with having a Leeds - York ticket on this line, we all know its valid

 

[cuccir]

One for everyone as there doesnt seem to be an easement for this one, one off ticket travelling from Harrogate to York round first thing on a Sunday or last thing on a night when theres no direct service, what is the appropriate single / return? fare

I don't think there is one - you'd have to sell separate tickets to Leeds, and then to York.

 

[Anvil1984]

if its a single you have to sell a return York - Leeds Any Permitted return (covers both directions) but i couldnt find a loophole for a return on a Sunday via Leeds thought there may be some dark paragraph of the book but seems my intuition was right

 

[daniel3982]

Interestingly I just looked on the national rail season ticket calculator and there are two options for a York Leeds return, one is any applicable route while the other is via Harrogate only. £3 difference between the two of them with the via Harrogate being the cheaper.

Wonder why the latter exists at all?

Only problem I might have with getting the Leeds - York any route season ticket is nothing to do with the railways but I have to claim my travel back through an NHS scheme that is notorious for assuming everyone is trying to rip it off. Since my journey is York - Harrogate can really see them kicking off if I submit a York - Leeds ticket!

 

[Railjet]

Only problem I might have with getting the Leeds - York any route season ticket is nothing to do with the railways but I have to claim my travel back through an NHS scheme that is notorious for assuming everyone is trying to rip it off. Since my journey is York - Harrogate can really see them kicking off if I submit a York - Leeds ticket!

I'm sure you won't have a problem if you explain the circumstances - which are clear cut.

Otherwise, why not pre-empt the situation by saying that this is what you will have to claim back because of timetabling issues, unless they have a better idea?

 

[Paul Kelly]

Also a bit worried by the comment above saying that I wouldn't be able to travel on Leeds-Knaresborough services as they don't go to York?

Don't worry about that - I was mistaken. Map TP, which shows valid routes between York and Leeds in the routeing guide is a bit ambiguous as it doesn't explicitly show the route via Harrogate while other maps of the same area do (e.g. maps CE or NE), but as yorkie pointed out, the fact that it shows a link between York and Leeds with no other routeing point in between indicates you can use any route between the two that doesn't double back or pass through any other routeing points. Which includes the route via Harrogate.

And even without worrying about the missing line on map TP, as pointed out by 323235 the fact that National Fares Manual 08 (in force since 2nd January) has fares between York and Leeds explicitly routed via Harrogate that are cheaper than the Any Permitted fares indicates with even more certainty that Harrogate is valid on an Any Permitted ticket.