You must sit in your reserved seat!

[Metrailway]

I've read a few posts about people wouldn't sit in a seat with a label, which interests me.
If I got on at say station C and a seat is reserved from station A to D but is clearly unoccupied I would sit in it.

Likewise if it's reserved from A to D and I got on at E I would occupy that seat, some of the posts here I've understood to mean that if they saw a label they wouldn't sit there. Maybe I'm misinterpreted those posts,

If you are on a busy train you will not have time to read each paper reservation labels individually as you would hold up everyone else (increasing dwell time). I certainly didn't have the time when I commuted daily between London and Bristol a few years ago.

(On a related note, on my commute I noticed that whenever staff did not have the opportunity to place reservation labels at Bristol TM, far less people were standing when the train left Bristol in the evening. I wonder why...)

It is slightly different for electronic reservation displays as they are clearer and state if the seat is reserved at a particular point. Although sometimes the same seat is reserved twice on separate sections of the journey. E.g A-C and D-E. So an long distance walk boarding at B seeing an empty seat with A-C reservation displayed may sit in the seat to only be asked to vacate their seat at D.

 

[12CSVT]

Might be reasonable if you could choose your specific seat, not just window/aisle etc. I had a reserved seat on a FGW HST and the allocated seat was 'window' but was actually one of the few that face a full blank panel between windows. Ridiculous that someone making the effort to reserve a seat in advance is allocated one of the worst seats on the train. I immediately moved to a seat where I could see out!

Probably slightly off topic - if a seat is next to a bulkhead with no window (the class 390s are notorious for this), isn't it against the Trades Description Act for the TOC to describe it as a 'window' seat ?

 

[yorksrob]

If you are on a busy train you will not have time to read each paper reservation labels individually as you would hold up everyone else (increasing dwell time). I certainly didn't have the time when I commuted daily between London and Bristol a few years ago.

I can't say that I've found that to be a problem myself. Even getting on at Leeds, where the majority of passengers join the train, I manage to scan the various reservations to find a seat that won't be occupied until I've left the train.

 

[suzanneparis]

Have to say I still think you should sit in your reserved seat.

Whilst I fully understand that outside of the reserved journey (say c to d) then it is ok to use the seat (say a to c and d to g) but if I am making the same journey as the reservation (c to d) then I would not sit in it.

The result is that either the seat remains empty whilst I stand. Or, more likely, someone of a more confident disposition grabs it and hopes that they won't be turfed out.

This essentially discriminates against women who may find it more challenging to sit in a seat with a reservation ticket on it.

 

[najaB]

I was with you up until:

This essentially discriminates against women who may find it more challenging to sit in a seat with a reservation ticket on it.

This is an invalid attempt to play the 'discrimination card' - I know many, many women who would have no problem at all defending their claim to a seat.

 

[Darandio]

This essentially discriminates against women who may find it more challenging to sit in a seat with a reservation ticket on it.

What an utter load of balls.

 

[yorksrob]

Have to say I still think you should sit in your reserved seat.

Whilst I fully understand that outside of the reserved journey (say c to d) then it is ok to use the seat (say a to c and d to g) but if I am making the same journey as the reservation (c to d) then I would not sit in it.

The result is that either the seat remains empty whilst I stand. Or, more likely, someone of a more confident disposition grabs it and hopes that they won't be turfed out.

This essentially discriminates against women who may find it more challenging to sit in a seat with a reservation ticket on it.

As I've said on other threads, the situation could be improved by TOC's not churning out reservations when people don't want them.

 

[martinB]

My experience is mainly limited to Virgin West Coast - from Oxenholme. Reserving a seat, Advanced ticket or not, places you in the reserved coaches which are usually crammed to the gills. Abandoning the reservation can provide a much improved experience - less crowded, room to breath and quieter...

3 classes then: 1st, standard and reserved!

 

[suzanneparis]

I stand by what I said.

A simple way to verify the truth of it is to look at the number of women with children stuck in the area between coaches when the train is full. Whilst regular commuters who have the personality to plonk themselves down in a seat reserved for someone else seem to get away with it.

 

[Ianno87]

I know a few people who, when seeing someone sat in their reserved seat won't say "excuse me, I think this my seat" for fear of the confrontation. Even though 99% of passengers are more than happy to move if asked, in my experience.

 

[DaleCooper]

I stand by what I said.

A simple way to verify the truth of it is to look at the number of women with children stuck in the area between coaches when the train is full. Whilst regular commuters who have the personality to plonk themselves down in a seat reserved for someone else seem to get away with it.

Behavioural differences do not equate to sex discrimination and in fact the two groups you mention are not differentiated by sex. The important thing is that everyone has the same opportunity to use the reserved seats. In effect you are arguing that shy people should receive special treatment which may or may not be valid but you need to make a stronger case and also explain how TOCs are supposed to identify those needing this special treatment. Do you expect people who lack self confidence to wear a wristband or something or can you propose a seat reservation system that doesn't disadvantage this section of the population?

 

[suzanneparis]

No, I simply expect people who have made a reservation to behave in a decent way and use their reserved seat.

Which to me seems perfectly reasonable. Especially on a full train.

 

[najaB]

I stand by what I said.

A simple way to verify the truth of it is to look at the number of women with children stuck in the area between coaches when the train is full. Whilst regular commuters who have the personality to plonk themselves down in a seat reserved for someone else seem to get away with it.

In that case it's also discriminatory against long-haired teenagers, men in business suits, couples with backpacks and people reading books as I've seen all of them standing in the vestibules.

The thing is, while I feel for you, it's not discrimination - "...treatment or consideration of, or making a distinction in favor of or against, a person or thing based on the group, class, or category to which that person or thing belongs rather than on individual merit." - as seat reservations are available to anyone (usually at no extra cost) and unreserved seats are available for anyone to sit in.

If you end up standing because you aren't confident enough to sit down, that is no more the railway being discriminatory than claiming a restaurant discriminates against you because you don't like anything on the menu.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

No, I simply expect people who have made a reservation to behave in a decent way and use their reserved seat.

Which to me seems perfectly reasonable. Especially on a full train.

The thing is, they may not even be on that train.

 

[suzanneparis]

Perhaps a sensible way forward would be to fine people a small amount for not sitting in their reserved seats. Say £5. That should soon stop the selfishness!

 

[DaleCooper]

No, I simply expect people who have made a reservation to behave in a decent way and use their reserved seat.

Which to me seems perfectly reasonable. Especially on a full train.

Why didn't you say that instead of going off at a discrimination tangent?

I would imagine women who have, quite rightly, fought and still fight for deserved equality in the eyes of the law, equality in the workplace, equality within marriage, equality in education, equality of pay, equality of opportunity etc. etc. would be at the very least bemused by your claim of discrimination in this case.

 

[najaB]

Perhaps a sensible way forward would be to fine people a small amount for not sitting in their reserved seats. Say £5. That should soon stop the selfishness!

I think we may have a new candidate for least-enforceable suggestion on RailUK. Could you expand on how this suggestion would work in practice...

 

[ainsworth74]

I have tidied the thread up a bit as there were a few off-topic posts. If we could please remain on the topic of seat reservations that would be grand

 

[GatwickDepress]

How about an always online national reservation system. Reservation coupons could print a 5 digit PIN on them, which could then be entered into a synced section in a TOC's app which then "clears" the reservation from the system, allowing other passengers to make use of it?

Or a case of an insanely complex solution just begging for a problem.

 

[suzanneparis]

I can see that I am in a minority when I say that I agree with seat reservations being enforced, because in my opinion it inconveniences some other passengers.

I think we can only agree to disagree on this point.

 

[najaB]

I can see that I am in a minority when I say that I agree with seat reservations being enforced, because in my opinion it inconveniences some other passengers.

I think we can only agree to disagree on this point.

I suppose it's because I really can't see the problem. You get on a train and see a reserved seat that's empty - just look at where it's reserved from/to and if it's free for the current portion of the journey, sit down. If the person with the reservation turns up, apologise and move. I'm not the most confident or assertive of person and I can't say I've ever had even the slightest amount of grief over it.

By the way, I asked you up-thread to explain your proposal for a £5 'fine' for not sitting in your reserved seat - I'm open to all suggestions if they are workable.

 

[DaleCooper]

By the way, I asked you up-thread to explain your proposal for a £5 'fine' for not sitting in your reserved seat - I'm open to all suggestions if they are workable.

How about this?

A surcharge of £5 on each reservation which is refunded by the ticket inspector if the ticket holder is sitting in the correct seat. Any uncollected £5s to be paid into my bank account.

 

[najaB]

How about this?...

And that, ladies and gentlemen, is how DaleCooper became a millionaire in a week.

 

[ichabod05]

Why didn't you say that instead of going off at a discrimination tangent?

I would imagine women who have, quite rightly, fought and still fight for deserved equality in the eyes of the law, equality in the workplace, equality within marriage, equality in education, equality of pay, equality of opportunity etc. etc. would be at the very least bemused by your claim of discrimination in this case.

Rather than bemused, I would suspect that they would be downright angry. People like this put their cause back by years.

Perhaps she thought that we would all take our tiny violins out for her.

 

[stevefreestone]

The guard was correct, you "must" sit in your booked seat. See here. Rarely enforced of course.

That's interesting. A couple of years ago I was on a Crosscountry service, someone was sat in my reserved seat, the train was full. I stood in the vestibule and despite saying that I've got a reserved seat, the inspector said, "nothing I can do about it, what the hell do you expect me to do, throw someone out of the seat?". I was rather shocked, unfortunately I got the usual response from the train operators of "thank you for bringing this to our attention can't tell you for data protection reasons what we did blah blah blah."

PS The person who sat in my seat told me to **** off when I politely said that was my reserved seat.

 

[Greenback]

I can see that I am in a minority when I say that I agree with seat reservations being enforced, because in my opinion it inconveniences some other passengers.

I think we can only agree to disagree on this point.

I have to say that I'm broadly in agreement with you on this. Maybe that's because I'm of an age to be able to remember when seat reservations were a lot rarer than they are now, and passengers had no choice at all about where they were sat. You simply had what you were given!

I almost always sit in the seat I've reserved, no matter where it is and regardless of what choice I've had or haven't had in the matter. The only exception to this is when I've made a mistake, as I did once on a Voyager, and sat in someone else's place. They claimed it at the appropriate time, and by then someone else had sat in the seat I should have been in, so I moved to an unreserved spot (amazingly for XC on a 4 car train there was one available nearby!) and continued on my merry way.

I don't think that the financial penalty idea is it all workable, though, sorry.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

That's interesting. A couple of years ago I was on a Crosscountry service, someone was sat in my reserved seat, the train was full. I stood in the vestibule and despite saying that I've got a reserved seat, the inspector said, "nothing I can do about it, what the hell do you expect me to do, throw someone out of the seat?". I was rather shocked, unfortunately I got the usual response from the train operators of "thank you for bringing this to our attention can't tell you for data protection reasons what we did blah blah blah."

PS The person who sat in my seat told me to **** off when I politely said that was my reserved seat.

The seat was allocated to you and therefore the individual occupying it should have moved. It is the train managers job to enforce the reservation and should have done so. They certainly shouldnt be saying "nothing i can do". If the occupier still refused to do move a call to BTP can get them fined. Personally, smug old me would have offered the inconvenienced seat stolen passenger an upgrade to first class, making sure the occupier knew that they were the reason the first class upgrade was being given.

Done it a few times. Booyakasha moment!!!

 

[Wolfie]

Moo

I strongly object to passengers with seat reservations not using them. Because being rather timid I am afraid to sit in a seat displaying a reserved sign. Hence I end up standing whilst the passenger with the reservation is sitting in another seat and the reserved seat ends up empty.

I sympathise. However l have osteoarthritis in my hip (it's when and not if I'll need a replacement). Today l travelled from the Midlands to London on Virgin West Coast. Despite asking for an aisle seat my ticket, booked on Virgin's website, was for a window seat. I know that had l sat there l was guaranteed problems. Was your rule in force l would be compelled to litigate against Virgin for breach of the Equality Act if the train manager insisted l sit in my booked seat.

 

[SephenWorceste]

On what basis would you have a claim under the Equalities Act?

 

[najaB]

On what basis would you have a claim under the Equalities Act?

The claim would be that despite requesting an aisle seat he was allocated a window seat and then forced to sit in it or pay £5 to sit in a seat that was suitable for someone with his disability.

 

[SephenWorceste]

The claim would be that despite requesting an aisle seat he was allocated a window seat and then forced to sit in it or pay £5 to sit in a seat that was suitable for someone with his disability.

Thank you.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
We have one poster saying they are discriminated against if people are not forced to sit in their reserved seat. We have another compelled to litigate if people are forced to sit in their reserved seat.

If those two meet on a train whose rights are trumped. I feel sorry for the Train Manager who has to sort that that one out and what if it is a driver only operated service?

Best wishes, Stephen.