You must sit in your reserved seat!

[suzanneparis]

StephenW

Good post. Though I often feel sorry for Train Managers, some people are unbelievably rude to them.

I have a policy of always being polite and pleasant to them.

 

[47271]

I'm not that fussed about reservations one way or the other, and I can't remember if this was on a Voyager or a Pendolino, but in the very early days of their operation, probably about 2004, I was on one out of Edinburgh where the reservation thing had failed and all the little displays were blank. The train wasn't that busy so, albeit with quite a bit of chat and confusion, everyone sat down and off we went. But then the wretched thing sprang into life 20 minutes into the journey and they were off, about six or seven reservation obsessives who had been perfectly happy until that moment! Another 20 minutes spent moving around the carriage - some even moving their huge cases - a comedy script writer couldn't do better.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

M

StephenW

Good post. Though I often feel sorry for Train Managers, some people are unbelievably rude to them.

I have a policy of always being polite and pleasant to them.

Thanks! Appreciated! Its something we often have to take on our chin, as professionals we have to be nice even when the punters are being w⚓️s!

 

[Greenback]

Train Managers/ conductors/guards or whatever they are called on a particular train already have a lot on their plate without having to decide whose rights are more important or whether one persons claim of discrimination is stronger than another.

My own view is that none of the claims mentioned so far in this thread have much realistic chance of success, and, in fact, that such claims of discrimination and mention of the Equality Act are being made shows how litigious we have become as a society.

It seems that we all want to choose exactly where we sit these days. Fair enough, even though I'm not particularly bothered myself - but I wonder whether we could ever get to a situation where additional charges are made to select your preferred seat like many airlines do?

 

[Wolfie]

The claim would be that despite requesting an aisle seat he was allocated a window seat and then forced to sit in it or pay £5 to sit in a seat that was suitable for someone with his disability.

Yup exactly, failure to make reasonable adjustments for a disability.

StephenW

Good post. Though I often feel sorry for Train Managers, some people are unbelievably rude to them.

I have a policy of always being polite and pleasant to them.

I fully agree and try to do the same.

My own view is that none of the claims mentioned so far in this thread have much realistic chance of success, and, in fact, that such claims of discrimination and mention of the Equality Act are being made shows how litigious we have become as a society.

It seems that we all want to choose exactly where we sit these days. Fair enough, even though I'm not particularly bothered myself - but I wonder whether we could ever get to a situation where additional charges are made to select your preferred seat like many airlines do?

Charging someone with a disability for making the necessary adjustments is strictly illegal! Any TOC proposing that would almost certainly be not only in violation of the Equality Act but also it's franchise agreement with DfT - I imagine that compliance with the law is a rather core feature!

I believe that you will also find the definition of disability in the Equality Act is MUCH broader than that used by the railway for purchase of a Disabled Railcard.

There has been successful litigation against supermarkets and other retail outlets relating to the provision of suitable parking for disabled people (oh, and them trying to insist on a blue badge to prove such status itself is also illegal!)....

 

[Greenback]

In an ideal world, most people would sit in their allocated seats because the booking system would give them exactly what they requested, but we don't live in such a world so the current situation, where the requirement to sit in a reserved seat is very, very rarely enforced, seems to be the most pragmatic way to deal with the deficiencies of the system.

Wolfie, I agree with you about charging for the adjustments, but that wouldn't be workable in the first place as many have said. It should be quite sufficient explain, if anyone ever asked, that there is a medical reason for not sitting in the allocated reserved seat, particularly if the system has not been able to provide what was initially requested. Most guards have enough to do, though, without creating a lot more hassle for themselves, though, by trying to enforce the unenforceable.

I'll always sit in my 'proper' seat wherever I can because I think that's the simplest thing to do!

 

[Wolfie]

In an ideal world, most people would sit in their allocated seats because the booking system would give them exactly what they requested, but we don't live in such a world so the current situation, where the requirement to sit in a reserved seat is very, very rarely enforced, seems to be the most pragmatic way to deal with the deficiencies of the system.

I agree. However the fact that some TOCs operate reservations systems which make the selection of exact seats possible means that doing so is a "reasonable adjustment". Given that the TOCs are legally obliged to make reasonable adjustments those deficiencies are frankly not the passenger's problem.....

 

[Greenback]

I agree. However the fact that some TOCs operate reservations systems which make the sleection of exact seats possible means that doing so is a "reasonable adjustment". Given that the TOCs are legally obliged to make reasonable adjustments those deficiencies are frankly not the passenger's problem.....

I agree with that. The inconsistent booking options and the failure to always provide what is asked for is a problem - hence my tongue in cheek thoughts on charging a fee for seat selection where available!

 

[Michael.Y]

What I find amusing is that people won't check their tickets before boarding to find out where they're sat. The number of people who've got on at F, dropped their cases to the vestibule floor, fished out their tickets from their handbag or pocket or wherever, spent five minutes shuffling through the vouchers like a magician riffling through a pack of cards, before finally going "COACH A!" and looking up and around them to see where they are.....

I mean, it's not as if the coach letters are printed on the doors or anything...

 

[najaB]

I mean, it's not as if the coach letters are printed on the doors or anything...

Playing devil's advocate: if you're in a rush or it's an intermediate stop with only a minute or so to board then it's more important to get on the train - in any carriage - than to walk down the platform to the right carriage and potentially get left behind.

 

[Greenback]

In those circumstances I'd expect people to make every effort to find out where the best place to stand is, and the displays I saw in Southampton recently showing the train formation were a great help to me, especially with a very heavy bag which I doubt I'd have been able to manoeuvre through a carriage!

 

[47271]

I agree that people should think about where their seat might be, but the effort to find the right coach can be considerable for many travellers.

One of the reasons I don't spend much time worrying about my own reservations, when I have them, is the confusing way that they're presented to passengers on long distance Scotrail services, and that's where I spend most of my travel time.

Coaches A and B are reserved, C never so, but there's no way of predicting which way round the 170 will turn up or whether it's a unit that can be reserved at all - the ones without First Class can't be and they're substituted more often than you'd think.

Pre Saltire refurb the coaches at least had the letter on the doors, now they don't even have that. Sometimes there's a paper label, but that's becoming increasingly rare too.

When I can I help confused occasional passengers who turn up at the wrong end of the train clutching their reservations and cases and squinting at non existant seat numbers, and suggest that they might be better off sitting down where they are, in the near empty Coach C! It's surprising how many won't take the advice and set off down the train muttering, cases in tow.

Let's hope they think about this when they're fitting out the Scotrail HSTs - visible coach letters would be a start.

 

[TUC]

If TOCs want customers to sit in their reserved seats they should at least make sure that their reservation systems meet customer requirements whenever possible.

As far as TPE are concerned, the trains are reversible, so it is difficult to ascertain which way round the set will be. Plus a350 may be substituted by a 185 which has differing layouts, so TPE cannot offer a seat selection, whereas the likes of FGW, MML, VT and EC all have standard layout trains with the first class at the london end, so they can offer this option. Even then there are still a few differences in layout between a 225 and EC125 and doesnt always work!

a fault of privatisation is the differing companies favour different seating, layouts, colour schemes, even trains. The standardisation enjoyed in intercity days having long been lost!

it's usually VTEC where I find that my reserved seat is not the type I requested. But surely the key issue is that a seat reservation system should flag up where it has not bern possible to meet the passenger's request. Yes, there may be situations where a late change of the type of train could also affect the situation, but in the normal course of events, the system should advise what the position is. I also come back to the number of occasions when i have found that the seat is not what I have requested, but there are non-reserved seats that do match what I need. Why has the reservation system not selected one of these?

 

[Greenback]

47271, I think it's in people's own interests to arm themselves with the information to make getting on and off the train as painless as possible. It simply makes it easier for them, as well as others.

However, I do agree that it's not always easy to know where your coach will be, which is why I was so delighted to see the train formation accurately on display at Southampton a couple of weeks ago. More could also be done to make the coach letters clearly visible, particularly in those cases where the sequence isn't logical!

 

[fandroid]

Reservation systems on trains, by their very existence, suggest that choice is available. If they cannot make it clear that the choice is very limited, or make allocations that make no sense when the train is boarded, then they are failing! The unique feature of reservations on just about all trains other than Eurostar is that there are also unreserved seats available, so if the system is just shoving folk in seats in a 'buggins turn' sort of way, then it's time it got seriously sorted. Customer service where are you!

 

[edwin_m]

Amtrak's reservable trains work in a different way - there are no seats allocated but travel tickets are sold for a specific train only and they don't sell more than there are seats available. However this does mean you won't be guaranteed any preference or even for a party to sit together, although I seem to recall the staff will ask other passengers to move if necessary.

 

[TUC]

On a Cross Country Peterborough-Cambridge train this morning, theoretically with a seat reservation, but on the train there are no reservation coupons and no explanation or apology.

 

[Greenback]

Reservation systems on trains, by their very existence, suggest that choice is available. If they cannot make it clear that the choice is very limited, or make allocations that make no sense when the train is boarded, then they are failing! The unique feature of reservations on just about all trains other than Eurostar is that there are also unreserved seats available, so if the system is just shoving folk in seats in a 'buggins turn' sort of way, then it's time it got seriously sorted. Customer service where are you!

I'm not going to pretend that there aren't problems with the reservation system, there clearly are and this undoubtedly contributes to people deciding to sit in seats that aren't those allocated by the system.

I do think that even if the system were perfect there would still be those who would choose to sit elsewhere, either because they didn't like the seat they chose when they actually get on the train, or just because they can!

 

[jon0844]

I do think that we are incredibly bad at showing where carriages will be on a train, as well as where first class actually will be, the accessible sections etc.

With different train lengths, we don't even say where the back of the train will be at most stations, and then there are the platforms where a driver doesn't have to stop at a particular place.

That doesn't help when it comes to people boarding and finding an allocated seat, except perhaps where the train is at a terminus and you have the time to walk along and search things out.

I know Intercity trains usually stop for 2-3 minutes, but most people assume you have about 20 seconds and panic. They don't even realise that usually there's a guard that won't just shut the doors and go, or on some trains couldn't if a door was open.

And as for seat reservations and being forced to sit in them. Perhaps people should initially take their seat, and and then seek to change afterwards. With paper tickets, you should be able to remove your own reservation (assuming it isn't showing a future reservation on the same service) to make it free to others, rather than have it sat empty. On electronic ones, you could ask the guard who could remove a reservation from a handheld terminal they don't have, but should!

 

[Parallel]

Interesting point regarding passengers not looking at reservation slips - The weekend just gone, I boarded a FGW HST from Plymouth (that originated from Penzance) and sat in a seat that was reserved from Tiverton Parkway to London Paddington (I was only travelling to Exeter). The seat next to me was too - And as the train got more and more full, people just seemed to have the attitude of 'it's reserved so I can't sit there'. Fair enough if they were travelling beyond Tiverton Parkway but there's no issue of sitting there until another seat becomes available. Better than standing!

That said, whoever booked the seat might have never turned up anyway.

I see why we have reservations, and I agree they help with families/couples wanting to sit together. However we need greater unreserved seating on busy trains. Particularly busy trains should use the LM/SWT advance ticket seat policy IMO - Must travel on your booked train but make use of any seat available. (Seat reservation number starred out at the bottom of ticket). Then those who have paid more for walk up tickets aren't necessarily at a disadvantage.

 

[rdwarr]

On the evening VTEC "commuter trains" out of King's Cross you quite often get a reserved seat next to an unreserved one. This can lead to the "reserver" sitting in the unreserved seat so that they can have two to themselves. When the trains are full and standing this can be an irritation especially when they, like a couple of Leeds ladies the other day, claim that their "colleagues are sitting there".

 

[najaB]

When the trains are full and standing this can be an irritation especially when they, like a couple of Leeds ladies the other day, claim that their "colleagues are sitting there".

Well that's just plain rudeness. They're the kind of person who would put a coat in the seat and pretend that it's a colleague's. Kind of like was detailed in this thread.

 

[Metrailway]

I've seen it happen quite a few times on XC. Quite frustrating on a packed 4 car voyager.

 

[najaB]

I've seen it happen quite a few times on XC. Quite frustrating on a packed 4 car voyager.

How full of yourself do you have to be to think that your "personal space" is more important than another human being getting a seat? That kind of thing really annoys me. I can't say that I would've been able to keep quiet if I was there.

 

[AM9]

How full of yourself do you have to be to think that your "personal space" is more important than another human being getting a seat? That kind of thing really annoys me. I can't say that I would've been able to keep quiet if I was there.

The fix for that is easy:
1) check where the reservation is valid from
2) wait for long enough after departure for anybody to take it
3) then if nobody turns up, ask to sit in it
If the person in the other seat tries objects, ask them to check their ticket. Usually, they will know that they have been rumbled by then.That's where you raise the level of your voice enough for other passsengers to hear what is being said, if necessary, repeating what the seat occupier says for everybody elses benefit. Usually works. If not, get the TM.

 

[Greenback]

Or simply say that you're sure they won't mind you sitting down for a few minutes until the person returns. If they don't then move themselves or their belongings then just sit on them regardless.

 

[47271]

I just point silently but firmly at the seat if I suspect selfish behaviour. It's pretty effective!

 

[JaJaWa]

I'm amazed they haven't abandoned it, it just causes ill feeling, you are asked to vacate the seat you have occupied for, maybe 2 hours by someone who bought their ticket 10mins before boarding, surely that's not right.

They have a reservation. You could also make a reservation, and then they would not be able to make one for that seat.

 

[island]

I agree. However the fact that some TOCs operate reservations systems which make the selection of exact seats possible means that doing so is a "reasonable adjustment". Given that the TOCs are legally obliged to make reasonable adjustments those deficiencies are frankly not the passenger's problem.....

All TOCs that offer seat reservations allow you to name which seat you would like by number. In most cases this can be done through the telesales or booking office channels. If adjusting the online channel would cost a disproportionate sum, given that the other two channels are available, it would not be a reasonable adjustment to require that the train company also offer the feature online.

Amtrak's reservable trains work in a different way - there are no seats allocated but travel tickets are sold for a specific train only and they don't sell more than there are seats available. However this does mean you won't be guaranteed any preference or even for a party to sit together, although I seem to recall the staff will ask other passengers to move if necessary.

That isn't how it has worked for me. On one occasion (Pacific Surfliner) I had booked over the phone and the agent said she could book me on the train but couldn't guarantee a seat as I was travelling the day before Thanksgiving. And that was indeed what materialized. On another three occasions (Cascades) I had my booking and half an hour before the train departed a conductor chap showed up and started scanning people's tickets, at which point each passenger or group of passengers got a docket with a sticker on it per person, specifying which seat to go to on the train.

On the Cascades they also seemed to use SDO and therefore assigned people wanting the quieter stations all to the same coach.

This process is unlikely to be scalable to British train frequencies.

 

[edwin_m]

That isn't how it has worked for me. On one occasion (Pacific Surfliner) I had booked over the phone and the agent said she could book me on the train but couldn't guarantee a seat as I was travelling the day before Thanksgiving. And that was indeed what materialized. On another three occasions (Cascades) I had my booking and half an hour before the train departed a conductor chap showed up and started scanning people's tickets, at which point each passenger or group of passengers got a docket with a sticker on it per person, specifying which seat to go to on the train.

On the Cascades they also seemed to use SDO and therefore assigned people wanting the quieter stations all to the same coach.

This process is unlikely to be scalable to British train frequencies.

In my case it was some years ago so may have changed. However I think some of the shorter distance and more frequent (by Amtrak standards) services didn't do reservations at all.