Zero excess

[Intermodal]

Hi all,

What is the current state of play on zero excesses? I was charged 10p today for what should have been a zero excess (ticket held: Liverpool Stns - Hamilton Square; asked to excess to Conway Park). The ticket office in question was run by Merseyrail and the guy actually turned his screen round to show me that he was manually increasing the fare from 0p to 10p.

Three questions:

1) Is this proper policy?
2) Why wasn't I charged 5p (the lowest amount a ticket can cost?)
3) How would you suggest I claim back what I was overcharged? (10p)


Edit: Just a note that I was in a rush and did not have time to argue policy (which I am unsure about currently regardless).

 

[soil]

I hope you are not seriously proposing to expend any amount of time claiming back 10p.

My guess is they are told not to issue zero excesses, so he made it 10p so as to avoid this while not causing you any real financial loss and still giving you the ticket you needed.

Other thread http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=71683

 

[Intermodal]

I believe I was unfairly overcharged.

Edit: Ah, headshot119 is a friend of mine who I told about this issue.

 

[soil]

If you will give me your name and address (PM), I will stick a cheque for 10p in an envelope for you.

 

[David]

It could be a case that TOCs are starting to adopt a policy of that all ticket transactions need to show a financial benefit, hence the manual changing the price to 10p.

However, that is speculation on my part.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

1) Is this proper policy?

There is no industry wide policy for doing it so, as far as I can say, there should be no artificial inflation of the excess fare.

2) Why wasn't I charged 5p (the lowest amount a ticket can cost?)

You shouldn't have been charged anything so I doubt it really matters what the amount is.

3) How would you suggest I claim back what I was overcharged? (10p)

Contact customer relations/services, explain what happened, when it happened, where it happened, you may want to ask why it happened and claim your ten pence back at the same time.

 

[GadgetMan]

I work on the trains so can't speak for booking office policy. Some of our Guards managers have this idea that every Zero Fare ticket should be accompanied by a TIR (Travel Irregularity Report). As I'm fed up with trying to reason with them unsuccessfully I also now charge 10p for what would otherwise be a Zero Fare excess on board. But I always explain this to the passenger and ask if they are happy to pay 10p. Never had anyone complain and it keeps me off the radar from management.

All my Zero Fares are now used almost exclusively for fare dodgers or the odd ticket issuing error.

Or I could take the stance of some of my colleagues who refuse to do zero fare excesses and fob the passenger off with a new ticket extension or point them to a booking office to sort it out.

Just accept the 10p as an admin charge and live with it.

 

[causton]

Just be like Kings Cross ticket staff and claim that there is no such thing as an Excess and that to extend the ticket I would have to go back to the ticket office I bought it from and obtain a refund, then purchase a new ticket! (which I dutifully ignored and got on the train, my defence to any RPI being that the full range of tickets was not available*)

*would this stand any ground? I have not got to the stage where I wanted to excess a ticket, no dice from the ticket office, so I board the train anyway and then get checked by an RPI or even have a ticket check at the other end!

 

[Jonfun]

If there's really the need to occasionally forge a price on a ticket just so people don't ask questions why they're doing a zero excess, why can't the booking clerk/conductor just not pass this minute sum onto the passenger? An extra 10p down at the end of the day once in a blue moon can't be over and above what you'd usually find yourself surely?

 

[GadgetMan]

If there's really the need to occasionally forge a price on a ticket just so people don't ask questions why they're doing a zero excess, why can't the booking clerk/conductor just not pass this minute sum onto the passenger? An extra 10p down at the end of the day once in a blue moon can't be over and above what you'd usually find yourself surely?

You're assuming we only come across occasions requiring zero fare excesses once in a blue moon. I average at least 1 a day.

 

[transportphoto]

I find this totally unacceptable! The only pain is, its going to cost you more than the 10p to get your money back, so any correspondence will be solely to prove a point. I'd ask for a cash refund of 10p and consider asking for some compensation in the form of Rail Travel Vouchers for the admin costs of proving that point? Maybe consider a phone call with ATOC?

@GadgetMan, I take aboard your opinion however totally disagree with it. On the right side of management or not, a zero fare should be a zero fare. It is not £0.10. I'd refuse to pay anything for something that I am entitled to for free.

Unfortunately, if we make to much of a fuss about this, it is going to become that all excesses have a minimum charge of £0.05 or £0.10 So we have to play the battle without taking it too far.


TP

 

[Tibbs]

Indeed, given how harshly accidental contravention of the NRCoC by passengers can be treated, there is a strong element of treat how you would like to be treated. If the TOCs demand that the passengers get everything exactly right, then it's only right and fair that they are held to the same standards.

Whilst 10p is not much for an individual passenger, times it by every passenger who gets excessed every day and it soon starts to mount up. This is money to which the TOCs aren't entitled.

 

[LexyBoy]

Whilst the approach of the clerk in the OP and GadgetMan is pragmatic and I'm sure fine by most people (many of whom would be expecting to have to buy a new ticket for the extra distance I'd wager), it does serve to reinforce the erroneous view of management that there's something inherently dodgy about zero fare excesses.

 

[Jonfun]

You're assuming we only come across occasions requiring zero fare excesses once in a blue moon. I average at least 1 a day.

Fair point, and indeed if lots of people came wanting the same thing said approach wouldn't work. But I'm just turning the point on its head - if 10p is such an insignificant amount to the customer, why isn't it to the person who's selling the ticket? I'd be very worried if over the course of a shift, management quibbled over a minor cash discrepancy of ten or twenty pence down.

 

[91101]

I think there is a lack of understanding between a ZERO FARE ticket and a ZERO FARE EXCESS.

A zero fare ticket requires you to override the price, and MUST have a TIR on it to explain why it was issued. This is a ticket to travel in its OWN RIGHT.

A zero fare EXCESS is an excess ticket, where the is no differential between fares, and the customer wishes to change their journey. This is ONLY valid with an appropriate ticket.

It sounds like some miscommunication between some guards managers and their staff, and possibly booking offices in regards to what is what.

 

[IanD]

Unfortunately, if we make to much of a fuss about this, it is going to become that all excesses have a minimum charge of £0.05 or £0.10 So we have to play the battle without taking it too far.


TP

You can bet that if they introduce a minimum charge it won't be 5p or 10p.

 

[transportphoto]

Unfortunately so, however I can't see it being much higher TBH.

We have to be cautious.

TP

 

[Yew]

You can bet that if they introduce a minimum charge it won't be 5p or 10p.

Multiply it by 100?

 

[maniacmartin]

Internal reporting problems between frontline staff and managers are of no concern to passengers! I too would have been tempted to just board and claimed the full range of tickets didn't exist in this case

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....I'd be very worried if over the course of a shift, management quibbled over a minor cash discrepancy of ten or twenty pence down.

For one guard? maybe not, but if one guard is getting a zero fare excess everyday, then it is fair to assume most, if not all, guards are. If they also forgo the ten or twenty pence then the discrepancy is not really ten or twenty pence, it is ten or twenty pence per guard per day, that's potentially hundreds of pounds a day, never mind a week or month!

 

[maniacmartin]

Only with their new policy they get a discrepancy of ten or twenty pence in their favour every day!

 

[Mystic Force]

How would i be treated if i had the wrong ticket and it was only 10p different by a rail company. This goes both ways.

 

[island]

Just be like Kings Cross ticket staff and claim that there is no such thing as an Excess and that to extend the ticket I would have to go back to the ticket office I bought it from and obtain a refund, then purchase a new ticket! (which I dutifully ignored and got on the train, my defence to any RPI being that the full range of tickets was not available*)

*would this stand any ground? I have not got to the stage where I wanted to excess a ticket, no dice from the ticket office, so I board the train anyway and then get checked by an RPI or even have a ticket check at the other end!

I have successfully maintained a similar argument with a number of LM guards.

 

[GadgetMan]

I think there is a lack of understanding between a ZERO FARE ticket and a ZERO FARE EXCESS.

A zero fare ticket requires you to override the price, and MUST have a TIR on it to explain why it was issued. This is a ticket to travel in its OWN RIGHT.

A zero fare EXCESS is an excess ticket, where the is no differential between fares, and the customer wishes to change their journey. This is ONLY valid with an appropriate ticket.

It sounds like some miscommunication between some guards managers and their staff, and possibly booking offices in regards to what is what.

Up until a few years ago yes. However the ability to override fares on a Avantix was removed. So now the process for issuing a Zero Fare Excess and Zero Fare Ticket are identical up until entering the original ticket number. At that point we enter the original ticket number for an Excess and T.I.R for a irregularity.

Unfortunately both flag up the same when the retail history is queried by managers.

Do I agree with the above? No. It's all down to us being Managed mostly by people who have never done our Jobs.

 

[jopsuk]

even though we are talking small amounts, it seems to me that it is fundamentally wrong to deliberately over-charge passengers/customers because of essentially an internal dispute between frontline staff and management that should be no concern of the passengers. I've got every sympathy for you having clueless management, but this is very little short of robbing passengers.

 

[maniacmartin]

Is it possible for guards to endorse a ticket (with a pen) to a different destination without entering it into the Avantix?

 

[transportphoto]

Is it possible for guards to endorse a ticket (with a pen) to a different destination without entering it into the Avantix?

No. Anyone could do that, in theory.

TP

 

[yorkie]

I would far rather pay 10p for a zero excess than be refused the excess (which, lets face it, is the alternative)

How would i be treated if i had the wrong ticket and it was only 10p different by a rail company. This goes both ways.

With Northern you could be prosecuted, the case would cost Northern, sorry, taxpayers, £thousands, Northern would get loads of bad press but would justify it by paying a Tory MP who should be representing taxpayers to instead represent them and claim that there are £210 million worth of 10 pence dodges (ie, 10 million people underpaying by 10p every day, 365 days per year) and you'd eventually get your name cleared. :roll:

Sounds crazy? Well, yes is, but it has actually happened! ( Graduate cleared of 10p dodge - there was a thread here but I can't find it now)

 

[185]

Hi all,

What is the current state of play on zero excesses? I was charged 10p today for what should have been a zero excess (ticket held: Liverpool Stns - Hamilton Square; asked to excess to Conway Park). The ticket office in question was run by Merseyrail and the guy actually turned his screen round to show me that he was manually increasing the fare from 0p to 10p.

Just a note that I was in a rush and did not have time to argue policy (which I am unsure about currently regardless).

I don't know of anyone on the railway who would even consider a passenger overtravelling from Ham Sq to Conway Pk chargeable. 10p could mean the difference between Merseyrail's entire business collapsing, and the entire forum collapsing. Laughing.

 

[BestWestern]

I fairly frequently issue zero fare excesses, where a passenger wishes to alter their destination (a frequent one is Bristol Parkway vice Temple Meads, for example), and I'm pleased to say that none of our mob appear to have any problem with it, it's never been mentioned. Just common sense really, I fail to see why it should be a big deal.