Zone Changes

[rebmcr]

Having announced that the Jubilee & DLR lines heading south from Stratford would become Zone 2/3 this week, it remained unclear what would happen to the existing Zone 2/3 stations further west.

This map seems to confirm that they will remain Zone 2/3 to create an overlapping block of sequential multiple-zone stations.

The only mystery now, is: in what zone is an Oyster PAYG journey from Bromley-by-Bow to West Ham?

 

[Mojo]

The only mystery now, is: in what zone is an Oyster PAYG journey from Bromley-by-Bow to West Ham?

Surely it's no different to asking about Elverson Park to Greenwich? FWIW, it doesn't matter; any single zone journey outside of Zone 1 is £1.50.

 

[rebmcr]

Surely it's no different to asking about Elverson Park to Greenwich? FWIW, it doesn't matter; any single zone journey outside of Zone 1 is £1.50.

Still mysterious though!

 

[MikeWh]

The only mystery now, is: in what zone is an Oyster PAYG journey from Bromley-by-Bow to West Ham?

Surely it's no different to asking about Elverson Park to Greenwich? FWIW, it doesn't matter; any single zone journey outside of Zone 1 is £1.50.

Still mysterious though!

Well if it helps to clarify things for you, it's in zone 2/3. It could be classed as zone 2, or zone 3, or even zones 2-3, because both peak and off-peak fares are the same in all three cases.

 

[yorkie]

Well, we already had overlapping block of sequential multiple-zone stations, so it's nothing new

What I don't like about the map is the lack of consistency; I'd rather they extended the "2/3" shading to include stations between Cutty Sark & Lewisham inclusive, because it's a bit odd how it changes from one convention to the other.

 

[MikeWh]

Well, we already had overlapping block of sequential multiple-zone stations, so it's nothing new

What I don't like about the map is the lack of consistency; I'd rather they extended the "2/3" shading to include stations between Cutty Sark & Lewisham inclusive, because it's a bit odd how it changes from one convention to the other.

Absolutely agree!

 

[Busaholic]

Why are these changes made? Is it because of (perceived) anomalies? If so, is pressure coming from operational staff, politicians or outside individuals/organisations like property developers? I would genuinely like some observations on these matters from those in the know: I was working for London Transport both (for a brief period) while it was nationalised and then when it came under the GLC and was always interested to see the power shifting, (very) gradually at first and then with quite a rush, although I'd left by then.

 

[deltic]

Why are these changes made? Is it because of (perceived) anomalies? If so, is pressure coming from operational staff, politicians or outside individuals/organisations like property developers? I would genuinely like some observations on these matters from those in the know: I was working for London Transport both (for a brief period) while it was nationalised and then when it came under the GLC and was always interested to see the power shifting, (very) gradually at first and then with quite a rush, although I'd left by then.

It was very much political pressure supported by property developers that was strongly resisted by TfL. The concern was that huge amount of new commercial development is being built at Stratford post Olympics at rents that are no different than those at Canary Wharf which is in Zone 2. Locations outside Zone 2 are seen as being outside central London and are therefore far more difficult to let. There was a perceived risk that the Olympics legacy would not be delivered unless the area was further supported. TfL's view was that after pumping £100ms into Stratford's transport system why would they want to forgo an annual loss of some £5-10m. Having the same party in Govt and London made the political decision easier as it effects both TfL and TOCs.

 

[rebmcr]

Well if it helps to clarify things for you, it's in zone 2/3. It could be classed as zone 2, or zone 3, or even zones 2-3, because both peak and off-peak fares are the same in all three cases.

Yeah I get that, it's still interesting to consider what it actually registers as on the backend systems.

Well, we already had overlapping block of sequential multiple-zone stations, so it's nothing new

What I don't like about the map is the lack of consistency; I'd rather they extended the "2/3" shading to include stations between Cutty Sark & Lewisham inclusive, because it's a bit odd how it changes from one convention to the other.

That's the point though, previous boundary stations have all been handled with a line — this is the first to require an area to be displayed (although my description didn't do a very good job of conveying that).

 

[telstarbox]

Interestingly the Green Party have proposed a single zone by 2025, with an intermediate step of four zones by 2017 (merging 3&4 and 5&6).

http://londonist.com/2016/01/no-more-zones

How's this for revolutionary thinking: the Green Party is proposing abolishing fare zones across London, for one flat fare, wherever you want to travel.

At the moment, someone living in zone 6 pays £844 more a year to travel into the centre of London than someone living in zone 3 — assuming that person can afford the initial outlay for an annual travelcard. (If you pay monthly the difference rises to £972 a year.) The Greens, and mayoral candidate Sian Berry, think that's not fair, particularly given that the housing crisis is increasingly pushing the low paid into outer London. So they want to level the playing field.

The plan would be implemented in stages. In 2017, zone 4 would merge with zone 3, and zone 6 with zone 5, creating a four zone structure with fares based on the lower rate. Over the next eight years, outer London fares would be held down as inner London fares rise to meet them. By around 2025, the party believes it would be able to make London one fare zone.

 

[Mojo]

Even zone 6 is unaffordable for normal people. Why not make the whole South East a flat fare zone?

I'm also not convinced that people in outer London will necessarily benefit. Single fares in zones 2-6, in particular off-peak, are very cheap (for example an off-peak Zone 6-2 journey is less than half that of a Zone 6-1 journey. Would they still remain such great value if there was one zone?

 

[Tetchytyke]

I think a flat fare zone is a daft idea, but there's a significant step increase between a 1-4 Travelcard and a 1-5 one, and bringing the outer tickets down in price would certainly be no bad thing.

It's the same again outside the zones; a Z1-8 Travelcard is £15.20 peak but a Z1-WFJ Travelcard is £22.60 peak; a snip at just an extra 48% to travel two miles from Bushey.

The London Mayor can't control what the price-gouging rip-off merchants at GoVia charge outside the zones though.

 

[telstarbox]

Those fares are necessarily cheap because a) the demand between Zones 2-6 is lower, partly due to lower employment density with the exception of Canary Wharf and b) if the fares were higher some pax would drive their cars instead as parking is cheaper and there's no Congestion Charge.

If you're on an off-peak Southeastern service, for example, most of the passengers are going all the way to the central area and therefore paying Zone 1 fares.

 

[MikeWh]

I'm also not convinced that people in outer London will necessarily benefit. Single fares in zones 2-6, in particular off-peak, are very cheap (for example an off-peak Zone 6-2 journey is less than half that of a Zone 6-1 journey. Would they still remain such great value if there was one zone?

Please take your TfL hat off!

I agree that this is the case on the TfL-LU scale also used by the early adopting NR TOCs and the pre-Essex London Overground routes. But for the dinosaur south London TOCs the zone 2-6 fare is more than half the zone 1-6 fare (£2.60 vs £3.10 in the case of Essex LO routes).

 

[Mojo]

Please take your TfL hat off!

I agree that this is the case on the TfL-LU scale also used by the early adopting NR TOCs and the pre-Essex London Overground routes. But for the dinosaur south London TOCs the zone 2-6 fare is more than half the zone 1-6 fare (£2.60 vs £3.10 in the case of Essex LO routes).

Is this proposal not related to the major election due 4 months today? Surely they would only be able to have an impact on the Travelcard rate and the TfL farescale anyway?

 

[Taunton]

The issue with flat fares (already in place on buses) is that, in order to get a reasonable revenue relative to costs, they need to be set sufficiently high that they then drive short distance traffic off the system.

This is very noticeable compared to a generation ago when bus fares of just a few pence (yes, genuinely) were charged for journeys of just a few stops. The buses were substantially used for such journeys, and used to take multiple such passengers in the course of a journey. People would get onto a bus to go from one end of Oxford Street to the other. It's one of the instances where "public" transport has driven a significant portion of their former public users away.

 

[MikeWh]

Is this proposal not related to the major election due 4 months today? Surely they would only be able to have an impact on the Travelcard rate and the TfL farescale anyway?

Sorry! Yes, the proposal is related to the election as you say. I was objecting to your assertion that zone 2-6 fares off-peak are dirt cheap, the same assertion that Boris used to justify removing the zone 2-6 travelcard and caps. At least the introduction of free travel on NR for under 11s shows that the Mayor has finally realised that London extends significantly south of the river.

 

[Clip]

I see the Lib Dem candidate has weighed into this by saying cheaper fares before 0730. What that will do for capacity seeing how when I travel just before then the vic line is pretty much packed already.

 

[Mojo]

The issue with flat fares (already in place on buses) is that, in order to get a reasonable revenue relative to costs, they need to be set sufficiently high that they then drive short distance traffic off the system.

This is very noticeable compared to a generation ago when bus fares of just a few pence (yes, genuinely) were charged for journeys of just a few stops. The buses were substantially used for such journeys, and used to take multiple such passengers in the course of a journey. People would get onto a bus to go from one end of Oxford Street to the other. It's one of the instances where "public" transport has driven a significant portion of their former public users away.

It is interesting you say that, because a number of commercial operators have taken the decision to introduce very low fares for quite short journeys in recent years. For instance West Midlands have brought in a £1 fare for a journey in Birmingham City Centre, and First in Bristol have a £1 "three stop hop." To me, this has never made sense, as surely the majority of customers that wish to make such short journeys will have a free pass, plus the fare evasion risk.

 

[deltic]

The issue with flat fares (already in place on buses) is that, in order to get a reasonable revenue relative to costs, they need to be set sufficiently high that they then drive short distance traffic off the system.

This is very noticeable compared to a generation ago when bus fares of just a few pence (yes, genuinely) were charged for journeys of just a few stops. The buses were substantially used for such journeys, and used to take multiple such passengers in the course of a journey. People would get onto a bus to go from one end of Oxford Street to the other. It's one of the instances where "public" transport has driven a significant portion of their former public users away.

While I agree with your observations on the demise of short trips due to flat fares in many locations, the bus market and ticketing has also radically changed at least in London. The widespread use of either capped smart cards, unlimited trip travelcards or free concessionary travel means that short hop trips are alive and well with plenty of passengers just travelling a couple of stops.
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I see the Lib Dem candidate has weighed into this by saying cheaper fares before 0730. What that will do for capacity seeing how when I travel just before then the vic line is pretty much packed already.

In theory if you can just get a relatively small number of passengers to switch from the peak of the peak to shoulder peaks you can alleviate or at least delay the need for some of the massively expensive station upgrade works required on the Underground.

The idea has been looked at by TfL from time to time but has not progressed for various reasons - the main one being that relatively few people will actually switch travel times, so you are giving away a discount without achieving much - but also problems with huge peaks in demand and safety concerns at the time the change comes in eg at 07.30. People faced with a 50% increase in ticket price if they dont touch in by 07.30 is likely to cause a few ructions.

The Lib Dems approach is interesting because it is more to do with tackling social exclusion - people who travel in earlier are often in lower paid jobs - than trying to switch demand

 

[Mojo]

I travel on early trains on the Underground quite occasionally; typically the first two or three trains are packed, then it quietens down for about an hour and a bit before demand ramps up just after 7.

 

[freetoview33]

It is interesting you say that, because a number of commercial operators have taken the decision to introduce very low fares for quite short journeys in recent years. For instance West Midlands have brought in a £1 fare for a journey in Birmingham City Centre, and First in Bristol have a £1 "three stop hop." To me, this has never made sense, as surely the majority of customers that wish to make such short journeys will have a free pass, plus the fare evasion risk.

Quite a lot of people do buy the 3 stop-hop in Bristol, every time im on the bus I see someone buying one. Yes okay I did see someone go 4 stops the other day but on the whole most people just do 3 stops or less.

When they removed it the other year there was a big uproar over it so they brought it back.

 

[Mojo]

Quite a lot of people do buy the 3 stop-hop in Bristol, every time im on the bus I see someone buying one. Yes okay I did see someone go 4 stops the other day but on the whole most people just do 3 stops or less.

When they removed it the other year there was a big uproar over it so they brought it back.

I could never see the point of it myself, and I'm surprised they did actually bring it back.

 

[Be3G]

Interestingly the Green Party have proposed a single zone by 2025, with an intermediate step of four zones by 2017 (merging 3&4 and 5&6).

You know, I actually almost posted a response to this thread a couple of days ago to say that it looks to me like the traditional zonal system is becoming less and less relevant, what with all of the different Oyster single fare scales and exceptions, lack of non-zone-1 daily caps, this latest rezoning, etc. etc.. I wasn't actually going to advocate removal of all of the zones, but I am starting to see the attraction of rationalising them.

 

[Clip]

The Lib Dems approach is interesting because it is more to do with tackling social exclusion - people who travel in earlier are often in lower paid jobs - than trying to switch demand

And most of those will generally be travelling much earlier than 0730. As I say the Vic line is rammed after 7 so they would be doing themselves out of money. Before 0700 then Ill probably agree with it.

 

[codesam]

You know, I actually almost posted a response to this thread a couple of days ago to say that it looks to me like the traditional zonal system is becoming less and less relevant, what with all of the different Oyster single fare scales and exceptions, lack of non-zone-1 daily caps, this latest rezoning, etc. etc.. I wasn't actually going to advocate removal of all of the zones, but I am starting to see the attraction of rationalising them.

The flat fare system on Metrocard seems to work well, $3 to travel from anywhere to anywhere with as many changes as you want. 30 day Metrocards with unlimited journeys are $116.50

 

[Mojo]

And most of those will generally be travelling much earlier than 0730. As I say the Vic line is rammed after 7 so they would be doing themselves out of money. Before 0700 then Ill probably agree with it.

I'd agree with that. 07.30 In My Opinion is too late, I think the current time of 06.30 is reasonable although with scope to possibly change it until 07.00.

How many people would it help though? As single Oyster/CPC trips already do have an off-peak rate early in the morning, surely a daily traveller would have a Travelcard anyway, and Off-peak Travelcards/Price Caps are only available on a one-day basis.

 

[moogal]

You know, I actually almost posted a response to this thread a couple of days ago to say that it looks to me like the traditional zonal system is becoming less and less relevant, what with all of the different Oyster single fare scales and exceptions, lack of non-zone-1 daily caps, this latest rezoning, etc. etc.. I wasn't actually going to advocate removal of all of the zones, but I am starting to see the attraction of rationalising them.

I think a big part of the issue is that the original zone system was fine when used on mostly radial routes, but now we have the Overground and DLR taking a more orbital path you run into situations where concentric zones make less sense.

 

[Busaholic]

Very off-topic, but can't resist mentioning the flat fare system that existed on the Moscow underground in 1974, on my only visit. The equivalent of a 1p fare bought you a single ticket from anywhere to anywhere, so I refused the Intourist guided tour for 50p and ventured boldly and most foolishly on my ticket, to get irretrievably lost and progressively more scared. Eventually got back to my central Moscow hotel, and on any further unscheduled journeys was accompanied by at least two 'followers' in regulation issue KGB garb. Don't think this happens even at Canary Wharf!

 

[NY Yankee]

Flat fares have advantages and disadvantages. The advantage is that the Tube will become more affordable for people living in the suburbs of London. The fare from Chesham to Kings Cross is £7.00 during peak hours and £4.10 during off peak hours, which is quite expensive. Flat fares will enable people to move to the suburbs. It will encourage growth in those communities.

The disadvantage of flat fares is the decrease in revenue for the TFL. Furthermore, it would be unfair if someone traveling 3 stops pays the same as someone taking the Tube to Watford.