Zones 7,8 and 9

[jon0844]

A line that would in effect link the WCML with the MML, ECML and over to the WA line would surely prove popular for many users, as well as during disruption (FCC even now publishes a booklet on changing lines, using buses, when things go wrong). Train usage now is nothing like it probably was when the last rail line was open.

The former route from St Albans to Hatfield and WGC would need a lot of work and a fair bit of compulsory purchasing so I doubt it would happen. Even a tram or similar would still need land to be re-purchased.

And of course there would be less justification when some parts are now fairly well served by bus, with Uno running many routes from St Albans to Hatfield even until very late.

 

[radamfi]

The entire Île-de-France region is covered by a concentric zone system centred on Paris. There are now only 5 zones covering an area more than 7 times that of Greater London, so it is possible to have a bigger concentric zone system than what London has.

There are also large zone systems in many European countries, albeit not concentric. The Netherlands has a zone system for the whole country, albeit now only used for season tickets. Flanders and Wallonia also have zone systems covering their entire respective communities in Belgium. The Strathclyde Zonecard covers an area even bigger than Île-de-France, although much of that area is uninhabited.

 

[Deerfold]

The entire Île-de-France region is covered by a concentric zone system centred on Paris. There are now only 5 zones covering an area more than 7 times that of Greater London, so it is possible to have a bigger concentric zone system than what London has.

There are also large zone systems in many European countries, albeit not concentric. The Netherlands has a zone system for the whole country, albeit now only used for season tickets. Flanders and Wallonia also have zone systems covering their entire respective communities in Belgium. The Strathclyde Zonecard covers an area even bigger than Île-de-France, although much of that area is uninhabited.

I don't think anyone's argued it's not possible - the arguments have been on the likelihood of anything happening - and for the TOCs that comes down to money.

There is also the technical limit on the number of zones on Oyster - the national system in Denmark which divides the country into 100 zones allows travel with smartcards which count the number of zones you go through rather than which zones they are - so the cost of Zone 1-2-3-4-5 is the same as Zone 7-8-10-12-15 (the zones are not concentric circles so you do not need to pass through all numbers). The system cannot check you are charged correctly (so far as I know) - you declare how many zones you're going through at the start of the journey but the costs if found to be doing it incorrectly are punitive.

 

[tractakid]

Just as an interesting aside to the topic-

When I attended the Ladies Mountain Biking Olympic event at Hadleigh Farm, the Olympic travelcard WAS valid to Leigh on Sea station via C2C. This was the case even boarding outside London, I boarded the train at Benfleet, then, afterwards, I traveled into Fenchurch Street with a break of journey at Benfleet, on which all occasions I was let through barriers. Of course, I had to be let through manually- the ticket barriers didn't respond automatically.

 

[Deerfold]

Just as an interesting aside to the topic-

When I attended the Ladies Mountain Biking Olympic event at Hadleigh Farm, the Olympic travelcard WAS valid to Leigh on Sea station via C2C. This was the case even boarding outside London, I boarded the train at Benfleet, then, afterwards, I traveled into Fenchurch Street with a break of journey at Benfleet, on which all occasions I was let through barriers. Of course, I had to be let through manually- the ticket barriers didn't respond automatically.

Yes, this was a special extension when the Olympic events were on. The train operators will have received something to compensate them for the additional traffic they had to allow with the travelcard. Similarly for those going to the watery event at Eton Dorney and HS1 to Stratford.

 

[londonbridge]

There is at present a chance of Epsom becoming a Z6 station; from reports in the local paper following meetings involving the MP all parties ( i.e. DfT, SWT, Southern ) are agreed but financial ( ie ORCATS ) details need sorting out and it might be another two years.

Glad this one may be sorted out. Agree that the boundaries need to be drawn somewhere but if Epsom gets added then you'd get people wanting Ashtead, Leatherhead, Dorking, etc, in the zones. And what about Redhill? You can use PAYG on the 405 bus but not on the train-if zones 7, 8 and 9 were extended to the south which one could it reasonably be put in? Though no doubt if Redhill was put in the zones there would soon be calls for Oyster to be extended down to Gatwick.

 

[Deerfold]

You can use PAYG on the 405 bus but not on the train-if zones 7, 8 and 9 were extended to the south which one could it reasonably be put in?

See my post 19 - http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=1180477&postcount=19 (second paragraph)

 

[Mojo]

The Greater Anglia stations soon to have Oyster Pay As You Go validity will be zones A, B and C.

 

[Deerfold]

The Greater Anglia stations soon to have Oyster Pay As You Go validity will be zones A, B and C.

As I predicted (more or less) in post 11...

 

[Skimpot flyer]

I understand that the boundaries have to be drawn somewhere, but it really is a shame that certain stations are just outside the Travelcard Zone 6 boundary, when commonsense would dictate drawing the line just one station further out.
Dartford has three routes from London converging on it but is outside the boundary.
Hadley Wood is the boundary station for FCC services from Moorgate, and is served by 3tph off-peak. It would be far better if Potters Bar were in Zone 6 - it is served by 5tph off-peak, two of which offer a semi-fast service to King's Cross. The fact that is outside the Zones makes as much sense to passengers as placing Upminster outside the boundary, at great inconvenience to District and c2c pax !

 

[jon0844]

Potters Bar definitely needs to become zone 6 for the train, given it is for buses outside.

 

[Deerfold]

Potters Bar definitely needs to become zone 6 for the train, given it is for buses outside.

Well, some buses.

Would you extend this argument to Slough which is rather further from the boundary but gets 5bph to Hounslow?

 

[Peter Mugridge]

The reason for the boundaries stopping where they do is simple - just consider how much more the fares are for people who need to travel "round the corner" at one of these "just outside the zones" interchanges such as Epsom and Dartford at present compared to if they could just do it on a Travelcard...

 

[Eagle]

You don't need to do an around-the-corner interchange at Dartford anymore as there are now regular direct services between Crayford, Barnehurst and Slade Green. Epsom I agree is silly not to be in the zones, even if it is possible to do a walking interchange at Ewell. Same goes for Cheshunt and perhaps Sevenoaks.

Also I don't see why the entire Shepperton branch isn't in the zones when Caterham and Tattenham Corner (both also in Surrey) are.

 

[ATW Alex 101]

Couldn't they just do the Oyster boundary right up to where the buses go. So places like Slough, Potters bar, Swanscome/Greenhithe, Epsom,Redhill etc.

Include Watford North, both Hertfords etc

Then draw the boundary there

 

[mr_jrt]

...or just put stations like Potters Bar in zone 7/8/9, surely? Only thing stopping it is the DfT, otherwise St Albans et. al. would already be in zone 9 or such by now.

As for the Abbey Line....I'd imagine sticking the whole thing in zone 8 might work, or having Watford North in zone 8, Garston in dual 8/9, Bricket Wood in zone 9, How Wood in dual 8/9, Park Street in 8 and St. Albans Abbey in dual zone 8/9. That way, unless it's a short trip (i.e. 3 stations or less) it becomes a two-zone fare...which might make it more palatable.

Alternatively, give it to TfL and it can probably all go in zone 9.

 

[jon0844]

Well, some buses.

Would you extend this argument to Slough which is rather further from the boundary but gets 5bph to Hounslow?

I don't know anything about Slough, but the buses from Potters Bar TO London (not the other way, like to St Albans or Hatfield etc) accept Oyster.

If there are any other services, perhaps by Uno, that don't take Oyster then I don't know the full details/reasons (i.e. why Uno stopped taking Oyster on its service into central London) but for all intents and purposes, Potters Bar is zone 6 for buses and not for trains.

 

[Deerfold]

I don't know anything about Slough, but the buses from Potters Bar TO London (not the other way, like to St Albans or Hatfield etc) accept Oyster.

If there are any other services, perhaps by Uno, that don't take Oyster then I don't know the full details/reasons (i.e. why Uno stopped taking Oyster on its service into central London) but for all intents and purposes, Potters Bar is zone 6 for buses and not for trains.

Buses in London have no zones. You can use any travelcard on any TfL bus - so you could use a Zone 1-2 travelcard on the bus from St Albans. As I've said in other threads about the buses between Hertfordshire and London the operator will receive a fixed amount for accepting travelcards/bus passes. If they don't think it's worth it then they won't accept them - and this is increasingly the case as despite the regular outcry from the Evening Standard bus fares in London are massively lower than the rest of the country (unless you use the extreme of paying a cash fare and only travelling a couple of stops).

The only London bus service to Slough is the 81. It seems to be the most popular bus service around the area - which is not surprising as it's the cheapest and most frequent. It's been increasing in popularity and frequency since Ken got rid of the old fares structure which made buses outside London about the same prices as other local services.

Any of the suggestions that you and the posters above you are technically quite possible, but as I keep explaining, unless someone is going to pay for it to be worth the while of the TOCs they won't go for it - certainly not at the fare levels that apply within Zones 1-9 and with DfT policy through this government and the last being that the passenger pays a larger share of operating costs it's unlikely to be them paying for it. TfL has little incentive to pay for it as it will largely benefit people who do not have a vote in London.

Local councils all seem to be a bit skint at the moment...

The Zone 6 boundary is largely an accident of history. When Greater London was created there were positives and negatives to being included - there was prestige in being part of London, but with a loss in local control of services and perhaps local identity.

As travelcards came much later these did not factor in the choices of places which did or did not want to be swallowed up by London.

 

[bicbasher]

If we're going to argue that travelcard zones should meet where TfL buses terminate outside London, then we could have a situation where Dorking should have Oyster facilities as the 465 runs from Kingston.

I think Route 405 used to run to Crawley before it became a TfL route which would have been interesting as the route used to serve Gatwick if I recall? Oyster at Gatwick Airport would be beneficial, although I doubt Southern and FCC would agree?

 

[Barn]

You don't need to do an around-the-corner interchange at Dartford anymore as there are now regular direct services between Crayford, Barnehurst and Slade Green. Epsom I agree is silly not to be in the zones, even if it is possible to do a walking interchange at Ewell. Same goes for Cheshunt and perhaps Sevenoaks.

Also I don't see why the entire Shepperton branch isn't in the zones when Caterham and Tattenham Corner (both also in Surrey) are.

I know both Crayford and Barnehurst are connected to Slade Green. But are Crayford and Barnehurst directly connected to each other these days?

 

[Deerfold]

I know both Crayford and Barnehurst are connected to Slade Green. But are Crayford and Barnehurst directly connected to each other these days?

Only by a handful of peak services, Monday - Friday (3 one way, 4 the other).