HS2 Northern Branches Discussion

[rebmcr]

Which would still leave passengers from Stockport and the Buxton line needing to make two additional changes (including a shuttle between the existing Airport station and the Manchester Outskirts HS2 station, which is likely to be more than a mile away). Tram journeys on the new Airport line are likely to be very slow (it is intended mainly for local travel to Wythenshawe and Chorlton) and the plan to extend the E Didsbury line to Stockport has been abandoned as too expensive.

HS2 to Manchester may be 20 years off, but these "support infrastructure" schemes also have long lead times and there seems to be no prospect of funding for them being announced anytime soon.

Buxton have been lucky with WCML — they're not entitled to quick access to Euston via Stockport.

It's not worth it to modify the HS2 plan just to serve them — let them change at Manchester Stations just like all those folk from Trafford, Eccles, Bolton, Bury, Rochdale, Oldham, Glossop, and Ashton have to.

 

[steamdrivenand]

Which would still leave passengers from Stockport and the Buxton line needing to make two additional changes (including a shuttle between the existing Airport station and the Manchester Outskirts HS2 station, which is likely to be more than a mile away).

I guess Stockport might get a purple patch when HS2 Phase 1 is running, some of those 4tph to London might switched to Compatibles so at least they get a shorter journey between Lichfield and Euston. Come to think of it they may well keep something like that going even after Phase 2 is up and running, although it'll look odd on a plan running in competition with a Manchester Airport Captive departing from just a few miles away.
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Buxton have been lucky with WCML — they're not entitled to quick access to Euston via Stockport.

What did the poor burghers of Buxton ever do to you reb?

Peak Rail had better get a shift on and connect through to Derby in the next 20 years as it sounds like Buxtonites are having their routing to London via Stockport withdrawn:cry:

 

[rebmcr]

What did the poor burghers of Buxton ever do to you reb?

Buxton's lovely but I'm a pragmatist!

 

[Philip Elliott]

There would presumably be one hourly Wolverhampton train (Watford, Rugby, Coventry, Birmingham Int, Birmingham), one hourly Liverpool train (Stafford, Crewe, Runcorn) and one hourly Manchester train (MKC, Stoke, Macclesfield, Stockport) which will provide all (except for Wilmslow but oh well) those places with a London service.

And uses 3tph instead of the 7 at present.

Or in other words £33bn spent for a far worse service and you wonder why some people aren't pro-HS2?:roll: 1 of those 7 trains at the moment is the LM service, none of your options cover that. The NR report into 'released capacity' suggested that in order to allow increased freight (an additional hourly path, nothing more), there will be only be 3 paths per hour up the TV during phase 1.

If such a service as you suggested was run, we would see passengers numbers fall quite significantly.

If not even less, travellers going long distance will be funnelled onto HS2 to ensure it makes money from day one - Especially the places you mention above, that could realistically use HS2.

Well Watford, Milton Keynes, Rugby, Nuneaton, Tamworth, Coventry, Sandwell, Wolverhampton, Chester & North Wales cannot be used by phase 1 and Stoke, Macclesfield, Wilmslow, Stockport cannot be used by phase 2. We already have an indicative service level released - how about basing assumptions on that and not pie-in-the-sky thinking?

 

[HSTEd]

Or in other words £33bn spent for a far worse service and you wonder why some people aren't pro-HS2?:roll: 1 of those 7 trains at the moment is the LM service, none of your options cover that. The NR report into 'released capacity' suggested that in order to allow increased freight (an additional hourly path, nothing more), there will be only be 3 paths per hour up the TV during phase 1.

If such a service as you suggested was run, we would see passengers numbers fall quite significantly.

It is?

I make it 3tph Virgin to Manchester, 1tph Virgin to Liverpool and 3tph Virgin to Birmingham/Wolverhampton?

I wasn't aware that one of the VHF 3tph to Birmingham was operated by LM?

Well since the vast majority of the passengers from Manchester and Birmingham trains will be completely removed the trains should prove adequate to deal with the minor remaining flows to the secondary stations.

Well Watford, Milton Keynes, Rugby, Nuneaton, Tamworth, Coventry, Sandwell, Wolverhampton, Chester & North Wales cannot be used by phase 1 and Stoke, Macclesfield, Wilmslow, Stockport cannot be used by phase 2. We already have an indicative service level released - how about basing assumptions on that and not pie-in-the-sky thinking?

Indeed they can't.

But they can't justify 3tph to Manchester simply to support Stoke, Macclesfield, Wilmslow and Stockport.... unless we want some sort of shortened 4 car pendolino or something.

 

[si404]

1 of those 7 trains at the moment is the LM service, none of your options cover that.

3x Manchester, 1x Liverpool, 3x Birmingham is 7. The 3 train itineraries that HS2Ed gave were only the post-HS2 'classic' service between London and those destinations - giving an exhaustive WCML post-HS2 timetable would be a very long post. LM services didn't need to come into it.

That plan (which doesn't seem likely, given the material that exists from lobbying groups, though nothing is set in stone for post-HS2 WCML service pattern - see my response to HS2Ed's post) gives 4 paths on the fasts south of Rugby for additional services to various WCML destinations.

This is especially good news for the places that while bypassed by HS2 are currently bypassed by WCML trains between London and Birmingham, Liverpool, Manchester and Scotland - Watford, Tamworth, Milton Keynes, Nuneaton, etc.

 

[Philip Elliott]

Well since the vast majority of the passengers from Manchester and Birmingham trains will be completely removed the trains should prove adequate to deal with the minor remaining flows to the secondary stations.

Birmingham - London is less than half of the EBW patronage or in other words, the majority will still need the existing service.

What you are proving is the dangers of over capacity - the beauty of the current service is that flows cross-subsidise both ways - the demand isn't enough for 3tph to Birmingham or Manchester only either.

Since frequency drives demand not capacity the result will be less patronage. So much for "serving the intermediate stations better".

 

[Cab2Cab]

Hi all, watching the news tonight about the HS2 something about a being tunnel excavated under east midlands airport, is there any truth in this?

It also stated that HS2 is heading towards Toton, does anybody know the route of the HS2 out of Notts?

And finally any updated websites with route on.

Cheers

 

[ainsworth74]

From earlier in this thread:

Cameron apparently due to present the Phase 2 route in the Commons this coming Monday;

- which explains the delay; yesterday's Euro speech had to be got out first.

route leaked to the Leicester press by the leader of Leicestershire County Council.

Plans to run a £32 billion high-speed rail route through Leicestershire could jeopardise a project that will create 6,000 jobs, it has been warned.

On Monday, Prime Minister David Cameron is expected to announce details of the route of phase two of the HS2 scheme.

The first phase will see 225mph passenger trains running between London and Birmingham, while phase two will see lines branch out in a Y-shape to both Leeds and Manchester.

Leicestershire County Council leader Nick Rushton said he has been told the Leeds-bound section will cut through the county passing through a huge tunnel underneath East Midlands Airport.

Coun Rushton said he understood it would re-emerge in the middle of a site earmarked for a £300 million rail distribution depot, to the north of the airport, which would employ 6,000 people, planned by developers Roxhill. He said: "This line will cut right through north west Leicestershire.

"It will enter at Appleby Magna and broadly follow the route of the M42 corridor. When it gets to Diseworth, it will disappear down a great tunnel and come back up exactly where the Roxhill development will be.

"It will wreck that very important employment opportunity."

Coun Rushton said he did not think it would be possible for both schemes to go ahead. He said: "The developers would contribute millions to improving the road infrastructure, so if it doesn't happen there will be no Kegworth bypass and none of the motorway junction improvements. The dualling of the A453 will not happen either."

Coun Rushton spoke to the Mercury yesterday ahead of a phone conversation with Secretary of State for Transport Sir Patrick McLoughlin, who briefed him on the scheme.

Coun Rushton said he feared the route would affect communities including Appleby Magna, Measham, Ashby and Lockington where there may be compulsory purchases of homes and businesses.

He said: "I doubt it will be very popular. It would make more sense to run it up the A38 corridor and run it into Derby to use the station there."

After Monday's announcement a consultation is likely to begin in May.

North West Leicestershire District Council leader Richard Blunt said: "It does look like the route will run through the Roxhill site and I doubt we can have both."

North West Leicestershire MP Andrew Bridgen said he did not want to speculate on the route before it was officially announced but has questioned the value of the project.

Neither the HS2 Ltd – a Government-owned firm – or the Department of Transport would comment on the route though both said there would be an announcement imminently. Nobody from Roxhill was available for comment.

 

[WatcherZero]

FT has a story, Crewe will have a station but with a southbound platform only, Heathrow spur if now off the cards pending independent review into future airport capacity.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/c3869ed8-6725-11e2-8b67-00144feab49a.html#axzz2J2XQbkV3

 

[PR1Berske]

From the Daily Telegraph today

"Patrick McLoughlin will unveil the route for the line on Monday, saying it will “service the United Kingdom for the next 100 years” and will “be a great engine for regeneration”.


Speaking to The Daily Telegraph, Mr McLoughlin suggests that those who oppose the £32 billion project should consider its economic benefits. He believes that those in the North will welcome the scheme but is braced for a backlash from countryside campaigners and Tory MPs, with the proposed route from London to Birmingham having met strong opposition.


The line will cut the journey time from Manchester to London to one hour and eight minutes when it opens in 2033. Up to 18 trains an hour will be able to connect England’s major cities.


Forecasts suggest the West Coast Main Line will be full by the middle of the next decade and Mr McLoughlin says the need for more capacity is the project’s driving force.

One of the biggest flashpoints may be in Cheshire, where the line will pass through the constituency of George Osborne. Mr McLoughlin said: “I’m afraid we will upset some people, but I appreciate that and we’ve got to try and do as much as we can to alleviate the damage wherever we can.


“You can’t build a brand new line and not have problems. There will be some areas where you are going to have to negotiate. But we will be announcing several new stations which I think will be great engines for regeneration, and I think by us announcing it now, the local authorities on the route can plan and get the best advantage out of High Speed 2.”"

 

[stockport1]

once the core is there then some shorter sections connecting to the spine could be handy.
im thinking manchester-liverpool,manchester leeds,manchester-sheffield,
leeds-york etc etc

which classic lines if any could be converted to HS running to extend the HS network?

 

[steamdrivenand]

once the core is there then some shorter sections connecting to the spine could be handy.
im thinking manchester-liverpool,manchester leeds,manchester-sheffield,
leeds-york etc etc

which classic lines if any could be converted to HS running to extend the HS network?

What about the southern end?
Denham-Bristol
Ealing-Southampton
Heathrow-Plymouth
Amersham-Swansea
Waddesdon-MKC
The possibilities are endless

 

[steamdrivenand]

I think someone has posted a Telegraph article about Mondays announcement on another thread. However when I read the full article through in a hard copy of the paper I spotted some info that I don't remember seeing in the other post.

After advising that Toton Yard will become a station and that Meadowhall will be used for Sheffield, it then says 'The western branch will go via Crewe with stations proposed for Man Picc. and Man Air.' So that confirms what the Leader of East Cheshire Council was saying a couple of weeks ago, that it was 85% certain the line would go through Crewe'.

That raises questions as to whether it actually goes through Crewe Station, following the WCML trackbed, or goes 'near' Crewe with a spur link in and out of the station.

If they're just going to slide it beside the WCML they'll presumably have to straighten some bends on the way from Lichfield. There's masses of space south of Crewe where the old goods yard stood, but surely they'd want to integrate any station, rather than build a separate HS one south of the existing. Ironically the first phase of a project to revamp Crewe Station commenced a fortnight ago, costing £6m. I guess there might be room to squeeze two HS lines under Crewe Station bridge, but it probably means reducing the number of Classic lines and thereby reducing overall capacity. And how will they cope with five other lines to cross as they pass through?

I can't wait for Monday to see what they've come up with.

 

[Kettledrum]

FT has a story, Crewe will have a station but with a southbound platform only, Heathrow spur if now off the cards pending independent review into future airport capacity.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/c3869ed8-6725-11e2-8b67-00144feab49a.html#axzz2J2XQbkV3

What's the point of a south-bound platform only?

If you live in Crewe, you can travel to London, but you can't come back.

What's the sense in that?

 

[Chris125]

once the core is there then some shorter sections connecting to the spine could be handy.
im thinking manchester-liverpool,manchester leeds,manchester-sheffield,
leeds-york etc etc

which classic lines if any could be converted to HS running to extend the HS network?

There's no need to 'convert' lines as Classic Convertible trainsets will be able to use the existing railway network in a similar fashion to Eurostar sets.

As for allowing the larger 'captive' sets, which are likely to be off-the-peg European designs, HS2 Ltd found that converting existing lines to the required loading gauge isn't viable and issues like platform height would probably make it impractical anyway.

Chris

 

[Phlebas]

What's the point of a south-bound platform only?

If you live in Crewe, you can travel to London, but you can't come back.

What's the sense in that?

It is presumably a south facing spur. So you can travel to/from the south via HS2 but not northwards. ie London - Manchester trains will bypass Crewe whereas CC trains to/from Liverpool etc will be HS2 to Crewe then WCML.

 

[Chris125]

What's the point of a south-bound platform only?

If you live in Crewe, you can travel to London, but you can't come back.

What's the sense in that?

Probably a misunderstanding, the likely explanation being that Crewe isn't served by HS2 services to Manchester, but those to Liverpool and Scotland probably via a spur off the new line - that means you can only get a train south from Crewe that will use the High Speed Line.

Chris

 

[steamdrivenand]

Probably a misunderstanding, the likely explanation being that Crewe isn't served by HS2 services to Manchester, but those to Liverpool and Scotland probably via a spur off the new line - that means you can only get a train south from Crewe that will use the High Speed Line.

Chris

That makes sense Chris and therefore it's what I've thought for a while, there'll be a spur onto the WCML somewhere south of Crewe and the main HS2 will run on due north missing Crewe Station. Whether that'll just be a near miss, running alongside the WCML or a few miles east will be interesting to see. The reference to 'southbound' means there'll be no return spur north of Crewe back onto HS2, though I suppose there's no reason they can't build a triangle in future to run trains northwards if necessary.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

That makes sense and therefore it's what I've thought for a while, there'll be a spur onto the WCML somewhere south of Crewe and the main HS2 will run on due north missing Crewe Station.

A report on a local radio station this evening stated that this line would pass through the constituency boundaries of the the Chancellor of the Exchequer, the Rt. Hon. George Gideon Oliver Osborne.

 

[Haydn1971]

Probably a misunderstanding, the likely explanation being that Crewe isn't served by HS2 services to Manchester, but those to Liverpool and Scotland probably via a spur off the new line - that means you can only get a train south from Crewe that will use the High Speed Line.

Chris

Good call, exactly my thought before reading your post - taking the HS2 line through Crewe would add unnecessary minutes onto the jupourney time vs a more direct HS2 route

 

[steamdrivenand]

A report on a local radio station this evening stated that this line would pass through the constituency boundaries of the the Chancellor of the Exchequer, the Rt. Hon. George Gideon Oliver Osborne.

It's going to be interesting to see whether they run south and east of Knutsford or slip to the west and run something back north of the town. North is probably not on with Tatton Park in the way, so my money is on Toft, Ollerton, Knolls Green, Styal. It will also be interesting to see whether the line then goes on on towards Didsbury or terminates with another spur further north for Manchester central.

I notice the Telegraph piece refers to Manchester Piccadilly as the site for the central HS station. Whether that was a slip of the journalistic pen or not will be known in 48 hours.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

May I as a resident of Cheshire East ask you if I am to understand your route in the quote above as being from the north of Congleton as being one that passes northwards through the three areas of Peover Heath, Marthall and Knolls Green ?

My posting above made earlier this month on the thread is beginning to ring bells again.

 

[si404]

Good call, exactly my thought before reading your post - taking the HS2 line through Crewe would add unnecessary minutes onto the jupourney time vs a more direct HS2 route

Still does even though Crewe is on a spur - the Birmingham-Manchester time quoted in the Wail today is 8 minutes more than this time last year.

South of Crewe also is rather a long way south for the link to the WCML. Compared to previous possibilities like Weaver Junction and Golborne/Culceth, it is pretty poor for the core cities thanks to a town (in a marginal constituency) of just over 60k and it's rich hinterland, many of whom get to vote on the current Chancellor's continuing in Parliament.

When it comes to Crewe, bare in mind that the July 2012 specification only had a call at Carlisle on Birmingham - Scotland trains: London trains would have skipped it, despite the city being 100 miles from Glasgow and Preston.

 

[steamdrivenand]

Pondering on HS2 North I'm wondering whether they intend to run any trains around the top of the 'Y' e.g. from Manchester to Leeds and vice versa. I wonder what the journey time would be for say Meadowhall to Manchester Airport compared to current Classic routes? Indeed is the junction to Phase 1 designed to allow such routing or is it all south/north?
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My posting above made earlier this month on the thread is beginning to ring bells again.

I think your post may have been prophetic Paul.

BTW maybe the Cheshire East Council Leaders project of an underground Crewe Station isn't so far fetched as that would get the line through Crewe itself without demolishing most of the town (shame). Mind where he got the tram idea from I still haven't figured.

 

[rebmcr]

There's no need to 'convert' lines as Classic Convertible trainsets will be able to use the existing railway network in a similar fashion to Eurostar sets.

As for allowing the larger 'captive' sets, which are likely to be off-the-peg European designs, HS2 Ltd found that converting existing lines to the required loading gauge isn't viable and issues like platform height would probably make it impractical anyway.

Chris

And there was me hoping for a 400kph grade-separated Grand Union enveloping Warrington, with lines to Liverpool, Scotland, Manchester, and The South.

 

[Kettledrum]

BTW maybe the Cheshire East Council Leaders project of an underground Crewe Station isn't so far fetched as that would get the line through Crewe itself without demolishing most of the town (shame). Mind where he got the tram idea from I still haven't figured.

Crewe station is approx 1 mile outside the town centre, so perhaps he is thinking of a short shuttle tram to connect the station to the town centre.

I can't see the HS2 station being far from the existing station, because the big benefit of having a station at Crewe is the links with the rest of the railway network for passengers.

As for, it being a new underground station - I can't see it. There is lots of old railway land there, and whilst some of it has been built on, the newer buildings are big warehouses and industrial units that are not that close together, so could easily be demolished to make lots of extra space if needed.

The older buildings on the other side of the station are densely packed terraced houses, but I imagine the new high speed patforms would miss most of these.

 

[steamdrivenand]

I can't see the HS2 station being far from the existing station, because the big benefit of having a station at Crewe is the links with the rest of the railway network for passengers.

I'm wondering whether a separate station is needed at all. After all the mention of 'southbound only' suggests a spur with the HS line running somewhere nearby. Effectively that means Compatible trains only through Crewe Station and that might be accommodated within the existing station area.

As I understand it the first phase of the station redevelopment which commenced a few weeks ago will improve access and provide another entrance that's off the bridge and to the east (opposite B&Q). I believe there are other phases planned for platform/track/signalling etc and it's in those phases that any changes to allow Compatible use could be achieved.

Presumably the HS2 Compatibles would enter and leave the station in both directions as if they were WCML trains which might cause pathing issues but with a comprehensive refit that could be sorted.

 

[HSTEd]

Birmingham - London is less than half of the EBW patronage or in other words, the majority will still need the existing service.

Are you counting people who disembark at Birmingham International in that figure, since there will be a profusion of HS services to there as well.

What you are proving is the dangers of over capacity - the beauty of the current service is that flows cross-subsidise both ways - the demand isn't enough for 3tph to Birmingham or Manchester only either.

Since frequency drives demand not capacity the result will be less patronage. So much for "serving the intermediate stations better".

The as I understand it the following "intermediate" non HS2 stations have services on ICWC to London using trains to one of the HS destinations:

Wolverhampton (off peak 1tph)
Sandwell and Dudley (off peak 1tph)
Coventry (3tph)
Rugby (1tph)
Milton Keynes (2tph)
Watford Junction (1tph)
Wilmslow (1tph)
Crewe (1tph*)
Stockport (3tph)
Macclesfield (1tph)
Stoke-on-Trent (2tph)

Right, a single Wolverhampton Train would call at:

Wolverhampton, Sandwell and Dudley, Birmingham, Birmingham International, Coventry, Rugby, Milton Keynes Central, Watford Junction, Euston

That Provides the current off peak level of service to all West Midlands Specific non-HS destinations apart from Coventry.

A single Manchester Train would call at:

Manchester Piccadilly, Stockport, Macclesfield, Stoke-on-Trent, Milton Keynes Central, London Euston

That provides the current level of service to Macclesfield and brings MKC up to its current level of service.

This means that 6 paths have been replaced with 2, with the following losses:

Coventry goes from 3tph to 1tph
Stockport goes from 3tph to 1tph
Stoke on Trent goes from 2tph to 1tph
Wilmslow looses its service entirely (currently 1tph).
Crewe goes from 3tph to 2tph (but may gain compatibles).

You propose we throw away two additional paths an hour to give Coventry 3tph instead of 1tph when every other destination sees no change in its frequencies whatsoever?

Wilmslow would take a path simply to serve it without any benefits to any other stations, I am not convinced that it could support the service effectively by itself.

Stockport would require two additional paths to maintain its service and with the Manchester-London journey time being so quick, it becomes drastically faster to double back via Manchester on the High Speed line, which will have for already stated reasons, buckets of capacity.

The four paths per hour that we save by doing this could be used for numerous things that might bring benefits to the "damaged" stations.
I think it is far better overall.

 

[GooGav]

Hi,

I live in Goostrey, and am worried. In fact, I don't think I've ever looked forward to a Monday so much!

Looking at the news articles and speculation online to try and piece together possible routes, I don't understand how on the one hand HS lines need to be as straight as possible for speed purposes, yet there is a report that it will run at some point alongside the M56. Coming from Crewe, I can see how - as Cheshire East Council want - it could run along the M6, but then it would have to curve around to the right as it came to the M56. I am a novice about his kind of thing, so sorry if I've come across as stupid.

Any peace of mind you could give to a worried resident would be much appreciated.