Why did we go for ticket barriers at mainline stations?

[northwichcat]

Last week I came across my first ever ticket barrier at a mainline station for a domestic service in Europe - which was at Fiumicino Aeroporto station where you scan the QR code on your ticket to get through the barrier, meaning it works whether your ticket was issued at the ticket office, the ticket machine, you printed it at home or you have a mobile ticket. People seemed to move through the barriers much faster than they do in Britain, despite a lot of people going through them being tourists.

Why did we:
1. Have a roll out of ticket barriers at stations which aren't served by a Metro style service like Merseyrail services are, when other countries like Germany seem to get by fine using ticket validation and fines to prevent ticket-less travel and ticket reuse?
2. Go for ticket barriers where you physically insert a ticket and if you don't have a standard ticket then you have to be manually let through? At the time the first barriers were installed web/telesales tickets where you had a seat reservation e.g. Advance tickets were issued on larger tickets but then they changed them to issue two separate tickets, which of course means you could insert an Advance ticket for travel in the evening in the morning and because the barrier doesn't see the time of the booked train it can't check anything more than the date is correct.

 

[Clip]

A cynical view would be that barriers reduce the need for on train sguards and RPIs in their droves so should prevent ticketless travel.


Of course that doesnt stop folk from using tickets that they shouldnt for travel but I guess its a start.

 

[DarloRich]

A cynical view would be that barriers reduce the need for on train sguards and RPIs in their droves so should prevent ticketless travel.


Of course that doesnt stop folk from using tickets that they shouldnt for travel but I guess its a start.

that is terribly cynical - and I would imagine almost entirely correct

(also it offers a substantial reduction in salary payments and terms and consdtions!)

 

[table38]

I wonder if you could argue that barriers also discourage certain "undesirables" away from the platforms at stations (not just to keep them out, but also to keep them away from areas where they could easily hurt themselves eg. by falling on to the track)

I suspect that "undesirables" may also explain why there are pay barriers at "land side" station toilets, which are often free "air side", such as at Leeds.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

I've read several times in separate sources that the real reason is to "funnel" everyone entering and leaving the stations in such a way as to get them all on CCTV.

 

[gordonthemoron]

donesn't Amsterdam Centraal have barriers? or is that just the metro?

Re: Merseyrail, I'd say that the barriered stations do have a metro service, and most stations aren't barriered

 

[thelongestroad]

Whereas ticket barriers are a deterrent they are no substitute for proper onboard checks.

It's not uncommon for a number of people not having tickets to appear on a service originating from a gated station.

 

[northwichcat]

Re: Merseyrail, I'd say that the barriered stations do have a metro service, and most stations aren't barriered

I was meaning stations only served by Merseyrail are the kind of stations you might expect to be barriered but other mainline stations with barriers (e.g. Lincoln, Chester, Huddersfield or Blackpool North) don't exactly have Metro style services.

 

[CaptainHaddock]

I wonder if you could argue that barriers also discourage certain "undesirables" away from the platforms at stations (not just to keep them out, but also to keep them away from areas where they could easily hurt themselves eg. by falling on to the track)

I suspect that "undesirables" may also explain why there are pay barriers at "land side" station toilets, which are often free "air side", such as at Leeds.

The down side of barriers is that people changing trains will be less inclined to patronise the "land side" retail outlets, thus depriving businesses of income.

My partner and I often travel from Sheffield to Skipton and always used to stop off to buy a paper and have a coffee on Leeds concourse but now having to queue up for ages and explain why your ticket won't work the barriers on the way out and then again on the way back in means it's just not worth the hassle.

 

[Emyr]

I suspect that "undesirables" may also explain why there are pay barriers at "land side" station toilets, which are often free "air side", such as at Leeds.

Piccadilly has toilets in the "Mall" space and in the "far waiting space" that leads to P13/14. They both have pay barriers.

Surely they should be incentivising rail users to use the normal plumbed-in facilities, rather than filling up the CETs onboard, or more likely (given the local stock) dump their crap all over the sleepers.

 

[SPADTrap]

Piccadilly has toilets in the "Mall" space and in the "far waiting space" that leads to P13/14. They both have pay barriers.

Surely they should be incentivising rail users to use the normal plumbed-in facilities, rather than filling up the CETs onboard, or more likely (given the local stock) dump their crap all over the sleepers.

I'm not sure they care otherwise tanks would have been installed already?

 

[WatcherZero]

Piccadilly has toilets in the "Mall" space and in the "far waiting space" that leads to P13/14. They both have pay barriers.

Surely they should be incentivising rail users to use the normal plumbed-in facilities, rather than filling up the CETs onboard, or more likely (given the local stock) dump their crap all over the sleepers.

Requiring a fee helps Network Rail pay for their upkeep and discourages vandalism.

 

[HSTEd]

Also worth noting is that Japan appears to have gone to the other extreme with barriers essentially everywhere.

 

[JonathanH]

I was meaning stations only served by Merseyrail are the kind of stations you might expect to be barriered but other mainline stations with barriers (e.g. Lincoln, Chester, Huddersfield or Blackpool North) don't exactly have Metro style services.

We don't have the demarcation of services between "metro" and "mainline" that might happen elsewhere. Lincoln, Chester, Huddersfield all have local services from nearby unstaffed stations where the guard will find it difficult to get round everyone boarding. Longer-distance services at Chester and Huddersfield serve local flows.

Gates at somewhere like Blackpool North prevent people boarding trains for short trips to Layton, Poulton-le-Fylde and Preston with no intention of paying.

 

[northwichcat]

We don't have the demarcation of services between "metro" and "mainline" that might happen elsewhere. Lincoln, Chester, Huddersfield all have local services from nearby unstaffed stations where the guard will find it difficult to get round everyone boarding. Longer-distance services at Chester and Huddersfield serve local flows.

Surely ticket barriers are most effective when everyone has had an opportunity to buy a ticket. If there are a lot of unstaffed stations and people won't have had the opportunity to buy tickets then having people on the platforms who can both inspect and sell tickets would be more effective, rather than getting a bit crowd of passengers at the barrier who have no idea what to do because they'd not been given an opportunity to buy a ticket and can't see where to buy one from.

 

[HSTEd]

But you won't be able to challenge every single person when a trainload of people comes through.

This way you only 'challenge' people who don't have tickets.

 

[northwichcat]

But you won't be able to challenge every single person when a trainload of people comes through.

This way you only 'challenge' people who don't have tickets.

And of course we know barriers do accept tickets which should be refused and do refuse tickets which should be accepted.

 

[HSTEd]

And of course we know barriers do accept tickets which should be refused and do refuse tickets which should be accepted.

Yes - but they only do this on a relatively small number of occasions compared to the total utilisation of the ticket barriers.

And people would do this even if they were checking tickets manually.
Unless you think RPIs on minimum wage would have a complete and total knowledge of the ticket regulations?

 

[David Goddard]

Yes - but they only do this on a relatively small number of occasions compared to the total utilisation of the ticket barriers.

And people would do this even if they were checking tickets manually.
Unless you think RPIs on minimum wage would have a complete and total knowledge of the ticket regulations?

But the barrier is programmed by a computer so should have complete and total knowledge of the regulations.

 

[northwichcat]

But the barrier is programmed by a computer so should have complete and total knowledge of the regulations.

In fantasy land yes.

In the real world a team of developers would have started working on a project and then once it's able to handle the main ticketing types the barriers will be put in to usage and the developers never fully finish the project because DfT won't fund the project completion.

 

[Drsatan]

Another reason why barriers should not be used at stations which do not have a 'metro-style' service (for example, Merseyrail or London Overground) is because passengers on long-distance services are more likely to be carrying large amounts of luggage, or pushing bicycles.

If you have a cup of coffee in one hand, and a suitcase in the other, chances are you will have to pause to rummage through your pockets to fetch the ticket. Of course, you could hold the ticket in the same hand your coffee is in, but then there is a risk you may drop the ticket.

Barriers aren't suitable for stations with small entry & exit thoroughfares, such as Bristol Temple Meads. Even at 20:00 on a Sunday evening, while changing trains there, I estimated it would take passengers three or four minutes to go through the barrier, not including the possibility of tickets being rejected for any number of reasons.

Note also that Bristol does NOT enjoy a 'metro-style' service.

 

[CC 72100]

Note also that Bristol does NOT enjoy a 'metro-style' service.

However on lines such as the Severn Beach line, trains are very well used and yet no stations have ticket machines. A conductor can only do so much of a train when it is particularly busy and with close together stops, which means that many passengers arrive at Bristol TM ticketless.

No barriers = most would most likely walk out the door. Nothing physically stopping them from doing so.

Just considering Exeter SD for a moment - which could arguably fall into a similar category to Bristol TM with regards to having a reasonable amount of long distance services, as somebody who I spoke to the other day said (when discussing taking the train for short distances, especially in the evening when barriers may be left open) "well you may as well take the train given that it's free." :roll:

 

[Cherry_Picker]

I'd imagine companies look at the bottom line once barriers are installed. I know revenues at Birmingham Moor Street quadrupled once barriers were installed. You could argue that station has a "metro" style service with a half hourly long distance train to London thrown in on top but still, the extra money was there to be counted and I presume the same is true of any station which has installed barriers even if it only gets intercity trains.

 

[JonathanH]

Another reason why barriers should not be used at stations which do not have a 'metro-style' service (for example, Merseyrail or London Overground) is because passengers on long-distance services are more likely to be carrying large amounts of luggage, or pushing bicycles.

If you have a cup of coffee in one hand, and a suitcase in the other, chances are you will have to pause to rummage through your pockets to fetch the ticket. Of course, you could hold the ticket in the same hand your coffee is in, but then there is a risk you may drop the ticket.

Barriers aren't suitable for stations with small entry & exit thoroughfares, such as Bristol Temple Meads. Even at 20:00 on a Sunday evening, while changing trains there, I estimated it would take passengers three or four minutes to go through the barrier, not including the possibility of tickets being rejected for any number of reasons.

Note also that Bristol does NOT enjoy a 'metro-style' service.

The original barrier installations had space for luggage to be pushed through while you used the gate. We now have wide gates. Apart from the fact that the wide gates don't shut quickly enough to stop tailgating, they deal perfectly with luggage / bicycles.

Does it matter if it takes three minutes for passengers to get through barrier gates. There are other places where turnstiles are used in similar circumstances. Do you think football grounds should be ungated? Do you think airports should be ungated? Gatwick Airport now has automatic ticket gates for the station and the airport departure hall. What is the difference?

 

[starrymarkb]

donesn't Amsterdam Centraal have barriers? or is that just the metro?

Re: Merseyrail, I'd say that the barriered stations do have a metro service, and most stations aren't barriered

It does. I understand they are rolling out across major Dutch Stations. Not sure if they have gone live yet

 

[satisnek]

Unfortunately, ticket barriers are a necessary evil. Back in the old days every major station had manned barriers and even at smaller stations (like Kidderminster) tickets were collected from all arriving trains. Thus the result was that even though you may have had free access to trains, the chances were that you wouldn't be able to get out of your destination station. Everyone knew this and therefore bought a ticket before boarding.

All this changed in the mid-1980s when BR rolled out its 'open station' policy. This may have saved a fortune in staff costs but the side-effect was to create a big problem for 21st century TOCs, in that it resulted in an entire generation believing that they could simply board a train and buy a ticket on it, and of course on busy services this is not possible.

Now to be fair, the vast majority of this generation simply pay up with no argument when asked, but when Central Trains produced those 'name and shame' posters towards the end of its franchise the average age of those caught was very, very telling.

Hence today's gatelines, a cheap and cheerful, automated and not particularly convenient version of what stations used to have.

 

[Rick1984]

ticket gates at an airport is ridiculous, I hate trying to get through them with large luggage, especially if the attendant insist on you putting card through reader rather than looking at ticket and letting you through oversize gate.

 

[3141]

Ticket barriers are not just sensible but essential, and I'm always amused when the subject comes up and contributors invent some outlandish reason for whingeing about them in one way or another.

Of course no system is perfect. You might have a suitcase in one hand and a cup of coffee in another??? Ha ha ha. You might, but most people don't, and if you've just got off a long-distance service you had plenty of time to drink your coffee. The machine might make a mistake? Yes it might, and so might a human. The machine is far quicker at reading the ticket than a person, especially when the person has to read it upside down.

Rail passengers should pay for their journey. Without barriers more get away with not paying than if barriers are there. Guards or inspectors on trains don't always have time to check every ticket. Even with staff waiting at the end of the platform it's not difficult to get through without a fully valid ticket, unless the checking is so thorough that the passengers start complaining about being held up.

Perhaps over the next few months we'll see a certain political party adopting a policy of removing ticket barriers on the grounds that they're not British. Should get them a few votes from some people on this site.

 

[dysonsphere]

There seems to be a big problem with prepay and collect tickets. As in I need to get from my local station to a differant station to get the ticket. Having said that the conductor has no problem with the home printed paperwork, mind you its only 1 stop.

 

[PeterC]

In the real world a team of developers would have started working on a project and then once it's able to handle the main ticketing types the barriers will be put in to usage

And in the real world the marketing types will add new products or change the rules on existing ones without any regard for the need to update the barriers.