EU, Immigration and UKIP

[RichmondCommu]

...which, as research has shown so very many times, including today's report, represents a tiny minority of the minority that are immigrants to this country.

So when some UKIP supporters focus so ardently on what is, by many measures, a very small problem, it's understandable, if not excusable in some cases, that accusations of racism get thrown around.

I concur. However the likes of the Daily Mail and The Express love to focus on the negatives of freedom of movement which in turn plays into the hands of UKIP.

As a life long Labour voter I'm loathed to say this but nevertheless Labour policy on immigration has helped UKIP.

 

[Antman]

Well, you're free to look over their report, including their sources and references, do the calculations yourself and see what you come up with. Until such time as you do so, I'd say it's safer to put faith in the results of that report than your anecdotal non-evidence.

This argument that migration pushes down wages for low paid workers is rubbish. There's plenty of British people that work for the minimum wage, too. The stagnation in wages is down to business and government. Business doesn't want to pay more, on the whole. Government (well, one of its executive agencies) sets the minimum wage. I have no doubt that migrants or no migrants, if the minimum wage were to be abolished tommorow, there'd be plenty of businesses that would take the opportunity to start recruiting at a lower rate than before.

Migrants are an easy target for so many of the ills in society, but most of the time the blame is so sorely misplaced.

For you to suggest that migration pushing down wages is rubbish is..........rubbish! It is an irrefutable fact that the more people you have chasing any job strengthens the employers hand.
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Voting UKIP doesn't make people racists. Many people who are voting UKIP have had enough of people heading to the UK to take advantage of the attractive benefits on offer in this country.

You're spot on however it is easier for certain people just to play the racist card rather than put forward any valid argument against UKIP.

 

[jon0844]

Brits are obviously missing a trick here. There are millions of UK citizens living in prosperous parts of the country, not needing to move in order to access western European wages. They are in an even better position than EU-immigrants as they learn English as a first language. Many of them get highly educated at university (fees and maintenance paid by parents in some cases) to give them a reasonable chance of getting some kind of job, and probably ultimately a graduate job earning above average pay.

EU-immigrants save money by house or room sharing, but many UK residents benefit from living rent free in the house that they grew up in.

I think one problem we have is that 'in the old days' it was common for families to live in one house, and that was obviously cheaper than having everyone leave home and get their own place as soon as possible. It's still a lot more common in some communities (e.g. Greek, Turkish, possibly Italian?) but that's changing with every new generation, and the supposed stigma of being seen to still live at home.

Now, of course, house prices being as they are, people are perhaps not leaving home as quickly - but plenty of people did before.

And it's easier to live in poorer conditions if you're not planning to settle here for life. It's a job for a lot of people, and not much different (I'd imagine) to construction workers that travel the world for (much better) money and will live in caravans etc.

The other point is that we're not going to attract people here from other well developed EU states if it's a low paid job and you have to slum it to get by. But if you come from a state where you can live on far less, it makes perfect sense to suffer for a bit to go back a LOT richer.

 

[Starmill]

You're spot on however it is easier for certain people just to play the racist card rather than put forward any valid argument against UKIP.

I think this is a little harsh. I agree 'the racist card' may be being over-used... but I'm tempted to agree with the people who use it on the basis that a) UKIP do not appear to stand for anything that I can support and b) I have yet to see any valid argument that they have put forward!

This in combination with more than slightly insular policymaking and some xenophobic scandals makes one see what people who call UKIP racist are getting at.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

I do agree he was treated harshly.We're hardly unique in that. For example if you are given the equivalent of indefinite leave to remain and get involved with an imprisonable offence the same rules apply.

I think what is happening is that due to the influx from other EU states (which EU rules prevent us doing anything about until MPs regrow a backbone and assert the supremacy of parliament), non EU citizens are suffering from harsh treatment.

You are correct that there is a massive difference between how EU citizens are treated and how non-EU citizens are treated: While EU citizens are protected by freedom-of-movement rules, non-EU people face draconian restrictions, which I'm pretty sure most people would, if they knew about them, say were unreasonable, and which, frankly, do cause massive suffering.

Incidentally, if UKIP clearly made that distinction, instead of just calling for greater immigration restrictions (implied: for everyone, which would seem to mean making the situation even worse for non-EU people), then I'd probably have rather more respect for them.

 

[radamfi]

I think one problem we have is that 'in the old days' it was common for families to live in one house, and that was obviously cheaper than having everyone leave home and get their own place as soon as possible. It's still a lot more common in some communities (e.g. Greek, Turkish, possibly Italian?) but that's changing with every new generation, and the supposed stigma of being seen to still live at home.

Now, of course, house prices being as they are, people are perhaps not leaving home as quickly - but plenty of people did before.

And it's easier to live in poorer conditions if you're not planning to settle here for life. It's a job for a lot of people, and not much different (I'd imagine) to construction workers that travel the world for (much better) money and will live in caravans etc.

The other point is that we're not going to attract people here from other well developed EU states if it's a low paid job and you have to slum it to get by. But if you come from a state where you can live on far less, it makes perfect sense to suffer for a bit to go back a LOT richer.

It is also possible for Brits to share a big house, or God forbid, share with people of other nationalities. Play them at their own game.

It is also feasible for Brits to move abroad once they've saved enough money. It is quite fashionable to move to somewhere even more expensive, like Australia, meaning they have to work there to survive, but if you don't need to work you can go anywhere that will let you in. You could probably take £50,000 to Bulgaria and not work again.

Of course, most Brits are brainwashed into assuming they have to live a traditional middle class, consumer lifestyle. There is another option.

 

[meridian2]

Maybe you should ask the authors?
I'm more inclined to believe a research report, complete with data and quoted sources, from a professor of economics at a well-respected institution, who is also an advisor to the Home Office, than the opinion of a bloke on an internet forum for rail enthusiasts.

So would I, but a 'bloke on a internet forum' is the one that matters in terms of winning over people to this argument, and I'm more sceptical of people who accept a report just because it has 'data and quoted sources' than argue it's validity.

 

[Oswyntail]

"Racist" is a highly-emotional word, and is being widely used when discussing UKIP, not, IMHO, because it is necessarily accurate, but because it is about the only word that has that emotion. Their policies are not racist per se, but enough of their candidates have spouted racist interpretations of their policies for us to be justified in wondering.
However, IMHO, the whole "immigration is the biggest question for most in Britain" statement is itself misleading, and is a surrogate argument standing in for one that is less tangible, less easy to express. We are all facing a period of change, leaving behind the assumptions that we will all be better off this time next year (which we have had since the sixties, generally), and having to face the fact that improvements, if any, will be slower coming. It is rather like young people leaving home and realising that now only they will do the housework. We are feeling unhappy, and look around for scapegoats, and "immigration" is a traditional one. The biggest mistake the Conservatives made was to refer to this necessary readjustment as "Austerity", another emotionally charged word. Sadly, other parties are playing on the emotion, not the reality.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Obviously it's terrible that he has lost his life and hopefully the court case will get to the bottom of exactly what happened.

As I understand it Mr Mubenga was jailed for two years for ABH, so it sounds like a bit more than a pub brawl. Presumably he would have known that any criminal convictions could see him deported but he still took the course of action that he did?

Presumably British citizens living in many other countries would also face deportation in these circumstances?

After some searching, I haven't been able to find any more details of the conviction, so this is all a bit speculative, but: I agree, two years does seem to imply it was a serious 'pub brawl'. On the other hand, it was ABH not GBH. I can't find any indication that it was a pre-meditated incident, or that he had any previous convictions - so it would appear to be a 'moment of madness' kind of crime, rather than something indicative of eg. a career criminal.

On that basis, I can't see that you could argue there's any public interest in deporting someone in that situation - especially when it leaves children fatherless (and incidentally makes it likely that the mother will end up on benefits, with no father to work and provide an income!). It seems to me that if he's served his punishment, and there's no particular reason to think he's likely to commit another offence, then that should be the end of it.

I don't think what might happen to British Citizens in other countries is that relevant, since what the UK does ought be based on what is right, fair and effective, not on 'other countries do X so it's OK for us to do X too. Probably some countries would deport a UK person in this situation, others wouldn't.

In my view, the particular problem with the UK system with this deportation is that deportation tends to be basically automatic after a prison sentence - there's no real consideration of individual circumstances - and that's basically a Government response to tabloid scare stories about foreign criminals and wanting to look tough on immigration.

I don't think there's any reason to think Jimmy Mubenga would have known that a criminal conviction could lead to deportation. If you're not actually planning to commit crimes, then it's not the kind of thing you're likely to think about - and besides, Government policy on deportations isn't exactly common knowledge.

 

[EM2]

Colonel Gaddafi was good for immigration control as he helped stop North Africans coming to Britain, Ukip candidate Mark Reckless has said.

Colonel Gaddafi was good for immigration control as he helped stop North Africans coming to Britain, Ukip candidate Mark Reckless has said.

The former MP, who defected from the Tories triggering the by-election in Rochester, said the former Libyan leader had stopped boats taking migrants across the Mediterranean to Italy.

Ukip leader Nigel Farage agreed with the comments and said the dictator, accused of killing hundreds of his own people, brought ‘stability’ to the country. He claimed helping remove Gaddafi was one of David Cameron’s biggest mistakes.
Gaddafi fan: Mark Reckless, who defected to Ukip in September, spoke out in support of the late Libyan dictator, saying Colonel Gaddafi was good for immigration control

At a rally in the Kent constituency, Mr Reckless said: ‘Whatever people say about Gaddafi, one thing is he didn’t allow those boats to come across.

‘He had an agreement with Italy that stopped it. Since he’s gone we’ve no idea what’s going on in Libya, it’s too dangerous for anyone to go there.’

Asked if he agreed, Mr Farage replied: ‘Of course.’ The Ukip leader insisted that the ‘bad guys’ were being replaced by ‘even worse guys’ and said action in Libya had been Mr Cameron’s biggest mistakes.

He added: ‘We bombed them, that’s what we did. That’s how this government helped Libya. It got rid of somebody, albeit an Arab nationalist dictator, who actually gave a level of stability to the area.’

Mr Reckless’ remarks were compared to the famous last excuse for Facism, ‘say what you like about Mussolini, he made the trains on time.’
'Oh, Reckless': Ukip leader Farage did not seem at all unhappy with Mark Reckless' support of the Colonel, and agreed with his new candidate, saying removing Gaddafi was one of David Cameron’s biggest mistakes

'Oh, Reckless': Ukip leader Farage did not seem at all unhappy with Mark Reckless' support of the Colonel, and agreed with his new candidate, saying removing Gaddafi was one of David Cameron’s biggest mistakes

Labour MP Chris Bryant said last night said: ‘First Farage says he admires Putin, then Reckless praises Gaddafi. Why don’t they go the whole way and say they support Kim Il Sung, Genghis Khan and Stalin and be done with it?’

Colonel Gaddafi died after the UN security council approved bombing raids led by Britain, France and the U.S. designed to assist rebel militias battling against forces loyal to Gaddafi on the ground.

He was eventually captured and shot dead by the victorious rebels in 2011.

During his rule his government supplied weapons to the IRA and other terrorist groups, was behind the Lockerbie bombing – the biggest act of terrorism in Britain history, which killed 270 people in 1988 – and the 1984 murder of WPC Yvonne Fletcher.

Tens of thousands of migrants each year cross from North Africa to Europe, many in dangerous wooden boats.

Last October 359 people were killed when a boat making the crossing sank off the Italian island Lampedusa.

Senior Tories had declared the Rochester and Strood by-election on November 20 a ‘must-win’, but‎ Mr Reckless has a 15 point lead over his former party according to the latest opinion poll.

Mr Cameron had pledged to ‘throw the kitchen sink’ at the attempt to hold the seat and halt the Ukip surge.

There are warnings that the Prime Minister could face a leadership challenge if the Conservatives fail to win.

Former leadership contender David Davis was last week reported to be taking soundings about a possible plot to depose Mr Cameron if the seat is lost.

Mr Davis is said to have told fellow MPs that there is a ‘window’ of opportunity to organise a vote of no confidence in Mr Cameron between the by-election and Christmas.

The contest comes after Douglas Carswell became the first elected Ukip MP last month.

 

[talltim]

Oh right so if it were not for UKIP and the media nobody would have noticed how the country is being swamped by mass immigration?:roll:

Even with UKIP and the mass media I haven't noticed how the country is being swamped by mass immigration. The only increase in number of foreign people I've noticed in the past few years is Chinese students, who pay to be here and will probably go back to China when they have finished.

 

[Clip]

Even with UKIP and the mass media I haven't noticed how the country is being swamped by mass immigration. The only increase in number of foreign people I've noticed in the past few years is Chinese students, who pay to be here and will probably go back to China when they have finished.

And that will all depend on where you live. Go ask people in Kent seaside towns which were and still are the first stopping off point for illegal immigrants when they get here and ask them if they have ever felt swamped. The answer will be yes.

Whole swathes of the towns there had their hotels and B&Bs full to the brim with immigrants both legal and illegal that the townsfolk were up in arms at the councils(Im looking at you Thanet) for allowing it to happen.

So just because you havent exsperienced it doesnt mean that it has not happenned and the people affected should not have a voice. Unfortunatly and more increasingly that voice is that of UKIP.

 

[Tetchytyke]

It's simply ridiculous but entirely predictable from an organisation so far left as UCL.

University College London are only "far left" if you're the sort of person who thinks Ronald Reagan was a bit too much of a filthy commie pinko.

You're spot on however it is easier for certain people just to play the racist card rather than put forward any valid argument against UKIP.

UKIP are a funny bunch. The leaders are all Tory toff stockbroker wideboys, but they're clever enough to understand that people won't vote for that. They know people at the bottom are struggling and want someone to blame, so UKIP choose to blame the other people at the bottom. Classic divide-and-rule, and it works.

I don't think Farage is a xenophobe or a racist but I do think he's a canny politician attempting to appeal to racists and xenophobes. Many of the grassroots level UKIP supporters have come across from the BNP- the UKIP rise in EU elections has tallied with the collapse in the BNP vote- and only the most blinkered would argue that the BNP are anything other than racist. I think Farage is trying to appeal to those people.

Voting UKIP doesn't make people racists. Many people who are voting UKIP have had enough of people heading to the UK to take advantage of the attractive benefits on offer in this country.

I think plenty of UKIP voters are racist- plenty of them have come over from the BNP. UKIP's founder, Alan Sked, claims it is now a far-right party. The chairman of UKIP's Thanet branch- where Nigel Farage will stand- Martyn Heale used to be in the National Front.

But plenty aren't, and calling them all racist is lazy.

The problem is that people want someone to blame for the fact that the economy has tanked for the 99% at the bottom. UKIP are blaming the Poles and Bulgarians coming here, rather than blaming the Tory/New Labour kleptocracy that's stolen all the money and the employers who exploit the labour market with illegal wages and zero-hours contracts. But given that UKIP is run by a stockbroker and has its roots in the billionaire banker James Goldmsith's Referendum Party, this isn't exactly a surprise.

 

[Greenback]

It is also possible for Brits to share a big house, or God forbid, share with people of other nationalities. Play them at their own game.

It is also feasible for Brits to move abroad once they've saved enough money. It is quite fashionable to move to somewhere even more expensive, like Australia, meaning they have to work there to survive, but if you don't need to work you can go anywhere that will let you in. You could probably take £50,000 to Bulgaria and not work again.

Of course, most Brits are brainwashed into assuming they have to live a traditional middle class, consumer lifestyle. There is another option.

You speak much sense with this post, radamfi. I sometimes think of myself as a type of economic migrant. I moved to Reading, lived in a hovel and saved up until I had enough money to return to south Wales and buy my own house. I can see that I was probably brainwashed into achieving a goal of owning property, but I don't think being a house owner has done me any harm, except for the couple of years I was saving up for a deposit.

It may not be a coincidence that I support free movement within the EU, I don;t see it as much different to someone from a poorer area doing as Tebbit so famously suggested, getting on their bike to work in London before going home later on when times or circumstances improve.

And that will all depend on where you live. Go ask people in Kent seaside towns which were and still are the first stopping off point for illegal immigrants when they get here and ask them if they have ever felt swamped. The answer will be yes.

Whole swathes of the towns there had their hotels and B&Bs full to the brim with immigrants both legal and illegal that the townsfolk were up in arms at the councils(Im looking at you Thanet) for allowing it to happen.

So just because you havent exsperienced it doesnt mean that it has not happenned and the people affected should not have a voice. Unfortunatly and more increasingly that voice is that of UKIP.

There have definitely been a lot of immigrants in this area. Many have now returned home, but those who have stayed have made a contribution to the economy and the area. There is a lovely Polish lady who serves in a local cafe. She's been here since 2004, works hard, has married a local man and is putting down roots.

There is also a family down the road from us, who both work hard and do opposite shifts in a low paid meat packing factory so that they can look after the little ones.

I do have a slightly different view of illegal immigrants, though!

 

[EM2]

And that will all depend on where you live. Go ask people in Kent seaside towns which were and still are the first stopping off point for illegal immigrants when they get here and ask them if they have ever felt swamped. The answer will be yes.

Whole swathes of the towns there had their hotels and B&Bs full to the brim with immigrants both legal and illegal that the townsfolk were up in arms at the councils(Im looking at you Thanet) for allowing it to happen.

So just because you havent exsperienced it doesnt mean that it has not happenned and the people affected should not have a voice. Unfortunatly and more increasingly that voice is that of UKIP.

But that isn't the country being swamped, it's some parts of the country.
The Cotswolds and some parts of Surrey and Berkshire are home to a load of conservative media luvvies, but I don't see them where I live. Is the country swamped with them?

 

[Clip]

But that isn't the country being swamped, it's some parts of the country.
The Cotswolds and some parts of Surrey and Berkshire are home to a load of conservative media luvvies, but I don't see them where I live. Is the country swamped with them?

Im sorry, what I should have done is not give a sample section of the country as an example and one that I knew of from experience but at least I should have travelled the length and breadth of the country to find this out.


Of course by saying 'it all depends on where you live' meant nothing.

i apologise and next time I will give a better sample when professing a view to someone elses point.

 

[EM2]

You're talking to someone who lives in the most ethnically-diverse district in the country, and where white British people make up less than 20% of the population. I see no 'swamping'.

 

[Antman]

And that will all depend on where you live. Go ask people in Kent seaside towns which were and still are the first stopping off point for illegal immigrants when they get here and ask them if they have ever felt swamped. The answer will be yes.

Whole swathes of the towns there had their hotels and B&Bs full to the brim with immigrants both legal and illegal that the townsfolk were up in arms at the councils(Im looking at you Thanet) for allowing it to happen.

So just because you havent exsperienced it doesnt mean that it has not happenned and the people affected should not have a voice. Unfortunatly and more increasingly that voice is that of UKIP.

You're spot on about Thanet and many towns on the south coast have excessive numbers of migrants and UKIP seem to be the only party addressing the problem.

 

[Clip]

You're talking to someone who lives in the most ethnically-diverse district in the country, and where white British people make up less than 20% of the population. I see no 'swamping'.

You may well do but then again people would say that by your very statement of only 20% of the population are white British then that very much is 'swamping'.

 

[Oswyntail]

You may well do but then again people would say that by your very statement of only 20% of the population are white British then that very much is 'swamping'.

What percentage are non-white British? I certainly don't feel "swamped" in Bradford, where there is a huge "immigrant" (i.e 2-3 generation British) population with strong Yorkshire accents

 

[EM2]

The census says that 89% of Thanet's population is English, or, if you prefer, that 11% is not. The national average is that 13% of the population is not English. If you add the other Britons, then the British-born population of Thanet is 91.4%.
http://localstats.qpzm.co.uk/stats/england/south-east/thanet

89.0% of people living in Thanet were born in England. Other top answers for country of birth were 1.2% Scotland, 0.9% Wales, 0.7% Ireland, 0.4% India, 0.3% Northern Ireland, 0.2% South Africa, 0.2% United States, 0.2% Philippines, 0.2% Zimbabwe.

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You may well do but then again people would say that by your very statement of only 20% of the population are white British then that very much is 'swamping'.

Why? There are plenty of Britons that aren't white. What about the black Britons, or the Britons of Asian descent? Or do you think that anyone that's not a white Briton should be classed as an immigrant?
It's been shown that areas of low immigration (e.g. Clacton) are the areas where immigration is most thought to be an issue.

 

[Tetchytyke]

And that will all depend on where you live. Go ask people in Kent seaside towns which were and still are the first stopping off point for illegal immigrants when they get here and ask them if they have ever felt swamped. The answer will be yes.

Yet 95% of Thanet's population is white and the net international migration to Kent (as a whole) in 2012 was 0.2% of the total population (around about 2000 people if you want to count them all).

A 0.2% change in population may be many things, but a deluge is not one of them.

It is fascinating how UKIP tend to be strong in places like Clacton, where the population is predominantly white. Maybe because it is, as Nigel Farage once said at a party meeting in 1997, that "the nig nogs will never vote for us".

 

[WelshBluebird]

One thing I find pretty weird is that a lot of the UKIP support comes from areas where immigration is pretty low and certainly are not causing the issues UKIP likes to go on about. A lot of it is more the fear of change than actually any real problems.

Of course, I am not saying in certain areas there is an issue with immigration causing strain on services etc, but in many areas with high UKIP support / anti immigration feeling, it simply is not the case.

 

[radamfi]

It quite frankly appalls me that we have unrestricted immigration from countries within the EU which we share no language or culture with (eg France, Lithuania) while countries that share most elements of our culture, speak English and have the same head of state (eg Barbados and Jamaica) are subject to heavy restriction. It should be the other way round.

The UK deliberately blocked Commonwealth immigration long before EU immigration became popular.

I would dispute, however, that we have no cultural ties with our neighbours.

Just a few things I can think of at the top of my head:

Towns are built compactly

Football is very popular

Comprehensive railway networks

These things we have in common with the rest of Europe, and are quite different in countries that are allegedly culturally similar to the UK e.g. Australia, US, Canada.

Even regarding language, English is closely related to German and especially Dutch.

 

[Clip]

You can throw stats at me all you want - that does not change peoples perception and 11% of a small population for the island is quite high and as someone who lived there during the first time people were jumping on lorries that they did indeed become swamped with immigrants. In fact some people in teh smaller villages and towns there still believe that they are.

Places like Thanet were used as holding areas before these people were dispersed elsewhere in the country and some of the places they were housed like the Nayland rock - once a great Margate hotel - had no one else living there apart from immigrants. This is a hotel that is placed bang on the sea front on teh main road from the west of Thanet into Margate and also right by the station as well as places like Cliftonville which again had its hotels and B&Bs full to the brim of immigrants both legal and illegal.

And as I said that is sitll the perception that is held by a lot of people in the place with a lot fo resentment towards Ramsgate as they didnt seem to have the influx that Margate did.

Im not saying this is right nor wrong but is my view and experience of what people in the example I gave are thinking. And if thats a bit much for you to bear then so be it.

 

[WelshBluebird]

You can throw stats at me all you want - that does not change peoples perception

Isn't that part of the problem though?
A debate about immigration does need to happen. But it needs to be driven by facts and reality rather than peoples perceptions (which are often way out of touch with what is actually going on).

 

[Clip]

Isn't that part of the problem though?
A debate about immigration does need to happen. But it needs to be driven by facts and reality rather than peoples perceptions (which are often way out of touch with what is actually going on).

Quite. But people have long lasting memories and they wont change them either which is what I was alluding to in #162

Even now you can go to Cliftonville and you will actually see a whole raft of non British born people happily going about their business and fair play to them. Walk down the road into Margate and you will hear that the whole town is 'swamped' with immigrants and will show Cliftonville as the example of that.

go further into the depoths of Thanet and they will be saying the same things because of what you now see in Cliftonville so as far as the residents are concerned the whole island has been and still is swamped with immigrants and throwing up a concencus result from 2011 in which you cannot be sure that everyone answered truthfully is no way to try and prove a point either.

 

[EM2]

... rather than peoples perceptions (which are often way out of touch with what is actually going on).

They are on just about everything, from teenage pregnancy to benefit fraud.
British public wrong about nearly everything, survey shows

A new survey for the Royal Statistical Society and King's College London shows public opinion is repeatedly off the mark on issues including crime, benefit fraud and immigration.

The research, carried out by Ipsos Mori from a phone survey of 1,015 people aged 16 to 75, lists ten misconceptions held by the British public. Among the biggest misconceptions are:

- Benefit fraud: the public think that £24 of every £100 of benefits is fraudulently claimed. Official estimates are that just 70 pence in every £100 is fraudulent - so the public conception is out by a factor of 34.

- Immigration: some 31 per cent of the population is thought to consist of recent immigrants, when the figure is actually 13 per cent. Even including illegal immigrants, the figure is only about 15 per cent. On the issue of ethnicity, black and Asian people are thought to make up 30 per cent of the population, when the figure is closer to 11 per cent.

- Crime: some 58 per cent of people do not believe crime is falling, when the Crime Survey for England and Wales shows that incidents of crime were 19 per cent lower in 2012 than in 2006/07 and 53 per cent lower than in 1995. Some 51 per cent think violent crime is rising, when it has fallen from almost 2.5 million incidents in 2006/07 to under 2 million in 2012.

- Teen pregnancy is thought to be 25 times higher than the official estimates: 15 per cent of of girls under 16 are thought to become pregnant every year, when official figures say the amount is closer to 0.6 per cent.

Among the other surprising figures are that 26 per cent of people think foreign aid is in the top three items the Government spends money on (it actually makes up just 1.1 per cent of expenditure), and that 29 per cent of people think more is spent on Jobseekers' Allowance than pensions.

In fact we spend 15 times more on pensions - £4.9 billion on JSA vs £74.2 billion on pensions.

Hetan Shah, executive director of the Royal Statistical Society, said: "Our data poses real challenges for policymakers. How can you develop good policy when public perceptions can be so out of kilter with the evidence?

"We need to see three things happen. First, politicians need to be better at talking about the real state of affairs of the country, rather than spinning the numbers. Secondly, the media has to try and genuinely illuminate issues, rather than use statistics to sensationalise.

"And finally we need better teaching of statistical literacy in schools, so that people get more comfortable in understanding evidence."

Bobby Duffy, the managing director of Ipsos Mori Social Research Institute, said: "A lack of trust in government information is also very evident in other questions in the survey - so 'myth-busting' is likely to prove a challenge on many of these issues. But it is still useful to understand where people get their facts most wrong."

 

[jon0844]

Of course, most Brits are brainwashed into assuming they have to live a traditional middle class, consumer lifestyle. There is another option.

I totally agree, but clearly you also (from the way you wrote the post) know already that most people won't ever make the move to somewhere cheaper (and where you could quite possibly enjoy a higher standard of living).

So many people that moan about immigration don't even seem to realise that they have the same freedom to go anywhere else in the EU!
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Colonel Gaddafi was good for immigration control as he helped stop North Africans coming to Britain, Ukip candidate Mark Reckless has said.

Not sure that's a good thing overall, but the same can be said about how Saddam Hussein kept Iraq 'in check' when he was in power. Again, not a good thing for an awful lot of people given how he did it.
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I do have a slightly different view of illegal immigrants, though!

Me too.

Thing is, illegal immigrants are the key problem we have - but politicians dare not say that, as they'll definitely be accused of racism then. So it's 'safe' for them to be more general, even though they all know that the people coming from Eastern Europe are all perfectly legal, and paying taxes and contributing to the economy through spending (even if a lot of money is sent home).

The last Government made a catastrophic cock up in terms of managing illegal immigrants, and keeping tabs on where people were - as well as the pathetic raids that rounded up illegals, only to then bail them and lose them again.

I'm not sure the current Government has done much to change this either, but nobody seems to want to talk about it.

 

[gordonthemoron]

quite Jon Morris, even Farage doesn't mention them