Plaid Cymru: We'd electrify all the main Welsh lines

[pemma]

Plaid Cymru has unveiled its manifesto for the 2015 Westminster elections, vowing to fight for more funds to upgrade Wales' transport system, including electrifying all its railways.

The nationalists say that HS2 only connects English cities and want Wales to also get additional funding in line with this. The party, to appear alongside six other party leaders in a TV debate on Thursday, says the Welsh Government should have full control of funding for railways, with "the aim of all major lines being electrified by 2034".

Plaid Cymru MPs say they could have influence in a 'balanced parliament' with no party with a majority. The party would argue for funding to protect bus services, and would seek to expand Traws Cymru into "a dedicated Welsh national coach company, linking our towns and cities with regular services, especially where train links are not an option".

On roads, the party supports a lower-cost 'blue route' upgrade to the M4, claiming that the 'black route' favoured by the Labour controlled Welsh Government "would prevent other transport projects from taking place across Wales". And it would bring the Severn Bridges into public ownership to cut tolls and re-invest any profits in Welsh transport infrastructure.

http://www.transportxtra.com/magazi...857&utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

I wonder what the benefit:cost ratio of electrifying the HOWL is?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Being mindful of what occurred over the winter with the storm damage on the Cambrian Coast Line, will they ensure that when that line is electrified, that all matters felt necessary to protect any items connected with the said electrification will be so enacted.

 

[krus_aragon]

I think you've misinterpreted a poorly phrased article. The article quoted misses out the word major in the first paragraph (it's there in the title and second paragraph.

To quote directly from Plaid's manifesto:

We support the electrification of railways in Wales, with the aim of all major lines being electrified by 2034 and will ensure electrification of the North Wales Main Line in the next Control Period.

I don't read that as "electrify every piece of track".

 

[pemma]

I think you've misinterpreted a poorly phrased article.
...
I don't read that as "electrify every piece of track".

I found the article via a Tweet from TransportXtra which said

"Plaid Cymru would electrify all Wales' rail links and start national coach firm"

However, I noticed they've since added a revised Tweet (since I posted the thread) saying:

"Plaid Cymru would electrify all Wales' major rail links and start national coach firm"

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

"Plaid Cymru would electrify all Wales' major rail links and start national coach firm"

Only by picking the UK government's pocket for another £1.2 billion a year.
All part of the victim culture in Cardiff (and Edinburgh).
I wonder how they'll cope with their portion of Network Rail's debt?

 

[Bald Rick]

At the risk of alienating my father in law and many people on this forum...

Hasn't the current Government already committed to electrify all the major rail links in Wales? And then some?

 

[rf_ioliver]

At the risk of alienating my father in law and many people on this forum...

Hasn't the current Government already committed to electrify all the major rail links in Wales? And then some?

AFAIU, no, the North Wales Coast is still under discussion.

Haven't read the manifesto yet, but I assume this means Chester to Holyhead, Valleys and the SWML; but beyond Swansea and the Marches line possibly?

Mods / OP: can we change the title of this thread to include the word "main" to accurately reflect what is proposed?

t.

Ian

 

[pemma]

AFAIU, no, the North Wales Coast is still under discussion.

I think Bald Rick was implying North Wales Coast isn't major.

Haven't read the manifesto yet, but I assume this means Chester to Holyhead, Valleys and the SWML; but beyond Swansea and the Marches line possibly?

The manifesto gives no further details.

Of course when politicians use a term like 'main' without going in to details it allows them to change their plans without breaking their manifesto. They might as well say 'some'.

Mods / OP: can we change the title of this thread to include the word "main" to accurately reflect what is proposed?

It's said that since 13:57.

 

[PHILIPE]

I have read another piece quoting Plaid as saying "We would electrify every mile of rail in Wales".

 

[MidlandMainlie]

I have read another piece quoting Plaid as saying "We would electrify every mile of rail in Wales".

Is it April 1st already. It is going to be difficult enough to build a business case for the North Wales Coast line with scarce electrification resources, any other line in Wales is way down the list of priorities compared to lots of lines in England or Scotland.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I have read another piece quoting Plaid as saying "We would electrify every mile of rail in Wales".

Perhaps they have just discovered a new gold mine in the Dolgellau area and they will be using the proceeds from the sale of the gold to the Indian jewellery market, as there is a never-ending demand for that particular metal over there....

 

[class26]

AFAIU, no, the North Wales Coast is still under discussion.

Haven't read the manifesto yet, but I assume this means Chester to Holyhead, Valleys and the SWML; but beyond Swansea and the Marches line possibly?

Mods / OP: can we change the title of this thread to include the word "main" to accurately reflect what is proposed?

t.

Ian

In Aprils Modern Railways the North Wales main line has a "poor value for money" business case.

 

[thealexweb]

In Aprils Modern Railways the North Wales main line has a "poor value for money" business case.

Didn't we know that was the case? Wasn't part of the allure of North Wales electrification that Class 313s could be dumped on them delaying the DMU shortage.

 

[Grumbler]

They are going to wire the Festiniog, Talyllyn, Vale of Rheidol etc.? Double-Fairlie electric locomotives? Hilarious!

 

[Envoy]

It is rather odd that Plaid Cymru are against HS2 being as that will provide quicker links between mid & north Wales and London. (Birmingham would be the change point for mid Wales & Crewe for north Wales).

Regarding the south of Newport M4: we know that the Newport tunnels cause massive delays and this section is very overloaded as it carries traffic from Bristol & beyond as well as that heading for the Midlands via the A449/M50. Throw in the local stuff as well plus the surges of traffic that occur for major events in Cardiff and it is easy to see that a new south of Newport M4 is desperately needed. The cheapskate option favoured by PC is unlikely to be sufficient.

At least Labour & the Conservatives are agreed on one thing - that the black route option is by far the best and I would go along with that. In fact, the Conservatives planned such a route about 20 years ago but Labour's Rhodri Morgan came to power and cancelled it claiming it was not needed. (Just a pity that a new airport was not built at Llanwern to replace Cardiff & Bristol which are in difficult to reach out of the way locations).

 

[NotATrainspott]

It is rather odd that Plaid Cymru are against HS2 being as that will provide quicker links between mid & north Wales and London. (Birmingham would be the change point for mid Wales & Crewe for north Wales).

Regarding the south of Newport M4: we know that the Newport tunnels cause massive delays and this section is very overloaded as it carries traffic from Bristol & beyond as well as that heading for the Midlands via the A449/M50. Throw in the local stuff as well plus the surges of traffic that occur for major events in Cardiff and it is easy to see that a new south of Newport M4 is desperately needed. The cheapskate option favoured by PC is unlikely to be sufficient.

At least Labour & the Conservatives are agreed on one thing - that the black route option is by far the best and I would go along with that. In fact, the Conservatives planned such a route about 15 years ago but Labour's Rhodri Morgan came to power and cancelled it claiming it was not needed. (Just a pity that a new airport was not built at Llanwern to replace Cardiff & Bristol which are in difficult to reach out of the way locations).

Plaid aren't happy that Wales wouldn't be getting any Barnett consequentials from HS2, since it counts as a UK-wide project, but they support the concept of high speed rail and the concept of a high speed rail line between London and the North. All HS2 Ltd needs to run services to North Wales is electrification, but if it included it in their plans, it would have to add it to the budget.

 

[Llanigraham]

They are going to wire the Festiniog, Talyllyn, Vale of Rheidol etc.? Double-Fairlie electric locomotives? Hilarious!

Yawn!!
Why don't people read what the proposals really are?
It says MAIN lines, not branches or private narrow gauge lines!!

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The manifesto actually says (won't allow copying):

from Plaid Cymru manifesto, p41: http://issuu.com/plaid/docs/plaid_cymru_westminster_manifesto_2_cbbe51990ad93a/13?e=1420648/12107296
We support the electrification of railways in Wales, with the aim of all major lines being electrified by 2034, and will ensure the electrification of the North Wales Main Line in the next control period [ie CP6, 2019-24].
While electrification is being rolled out, we will make the best use of stock by rolling out additional services in diesel-operated areas and increase the number of services in west Wales, mid Wales and north Wales.

It also mentions support for a South Wales Metro, feasibility studies for reopening closed lines (mentioning Carmarthen-Aberystwyth) and a Welsh transport smart card.
Nothing, of course on cross-border services or the Borders half of the Wales & Borders franchise.
I wonder if the Marches line is considered "major"?
All this would be funded by a major part of an extra £1.2 billion annually, devolved from the UK government (although HMG would not then have to fund enhancements in Wales).

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Say they did manage to electrify all routes in Wales, what DMU units would that free up for cascade to other places that wouldn't be completely knackered and life expired by the time of the completion of electrification?

 

[HSTEd]

The entire Class 175 fleet and assorted sprinters.

Also Pacers will go on forever, so lots of them.

 

[Gareth Marston]

The manifesto actually says (won't allow copying):


It also mentions support for a South Wales Metro, feasibility studies for reopening closed lines (mentioning Carmarthen-Aberystwyth) and a Welsh transport smart card.
Nothing, of course on cross-border services or the Borders half of the Wales & Borders franchise.
I wonder if the Marches line is considered "major"?
All this would be funded by a major part of an extra £1.2 billion annually, devolved from the UK government (although HMG would not then have to fund enhancements in Wales).

In their submission to the Welsh Government on the draft national transport plan Plaid refer to the "Marcher line" and the need to electrify to speed up north wales to South Wales trains.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

In their submission to the Welsh Government on the draft national transport plan Plaid refer to the "Marcher line" and the need to electrify to speed up north wales to South Wales trains.

Yes, but I'm sure they would not pay for the (long) bits in England.
90 miles I think from Pontrilas to Chirk (not to mention Chester or Shrewsbury-Crewe).
That's a bigger programme than TP electrification.
All or nothing I would imagine.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Yes, but I'm sure they would not pay for the (long) bits in England.
90 miles I think from Pontrilas to Chirk (not to mention Chester or Shrewsbury-Crewe).
That's a bigger programme than TP electrification.
All or nothing I would imagine.

Not as complicated though ie junctions etc

 

[TheKnightWho]

Not as complicated though ie junctions etc

The expensive bits are the clearance works, rather than the wires themselves. Does anyone know what would be needed?

I'm not sure assuming that the WG wouldn't pay for the English bits of the line is fair: after all, they stand to gain a lot from it, even though it's technically in England.

 

[Blamethrower]

They could 'do a Switzerland ' and build hydroelectricity plants to make the network self sufficient.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The expensive bits are the clearance works, rather than the wires themselves. Does anyone know what would be needed?

There's a long tunnel at Dinmore (2 bores, 1054 yards) to worry about, and a few short ones (Balderton, Wrexham, Ruabon, Chirk, Ludlow, Red Hill, Pontrilas).
Plus remodelling and resignalling Shrewsbury, a very big job. Similar at Chester if it hasn't been wired already.
There are also numerous arch-profile bridges, mostly for local roads and farms.
Several significant viaducts too (eg over the Dee, Ceiriog, Severn and Uskx2) and some heritage sections.
The landscape is pretty special over much of the line's length (AONBs and the like) and would need to be protected.

 

[Yew]

They could 'do a Switzerland ' and build hydroelectricity plants to make the network self sufficient.

And in the process destroy the environment, and write off a big chunk of the adventure tourism economy that helps support north wales.

 

[Llanigraham]

And in the process destroy the environment, and write off a big chunk of the adventure tourism economy that helps support north wales.

Somewhat off-topic, but I don't follow your logic. Hydro schemes can be built without any effect on tourism, as has been proven in the Elan Valley.

 

[Envoy]

Hydro power? Hmm…. They could build a tidal barrage power system across the Severn 2 miles downstream of the M4 bridge. Then a 'shortcut railway' could be placed on top linking Magor with the line that goes straight to Bristol Parkway & thus you get power and have a crossing that avoids the old tunnel.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Hydro power? Hmm…. They could build a tidal barrage power system across the Severn 2 miles downstream of the M4 bridge. Then a 'shortcut railway' could be placed on top linking Magor with the line that goes straight to Bristol Parkway & thus you get power and have a crossing that avoids the old tunnel.

I for one would not have liked to be on such a train described on the route above when last winter's storms were in full spate.