Passengers detrain themselves in Bristol area (26/09)

[Llanigraham]

This is what happened....

The train which was travelling towards Bristol was the usual two passengers short of empty prior to arrival at Clifton Down.

There are NO permit to travel, nor ticket machines on any station on the Branch due to repeated theft.

The service from Bristol to Avonmouth reported hugely overcrowded platforms at stations towards Montplier, a decision was made to issue not to call orders for the incident train for Redland and Montpilar due to the train being extremely overcrowded at Clifton.

When the Avommouth train arrived at Redladn ASB occurred which delayed its progress towards Clifton.

The usual process for Bristol bound trains is to wait time at Clifton then draw down to the single line protecting signal, when the service is running RT they usually pass before a signal stop is needed.

However thanks to the ASB of the people (not passengers, as they've not paid) at Redland the signal stop was extended, not usual for Bristol services to be at a stand for five minutes.

The guard on the incident train made the usual announcement, and further explained that due to overcrowding at Redland the train would not call, passengers should change at Montpiler. For their own safety as you could physically not fit anymore people on the train.

During the signal stop, attempts where made to access both the front and rear cabs (150/1).

After a period of time someone within the train decided to force open the train doors and alight onto the still 'live' running line.

This of course was seen as some kind of 'revolution' among the student types so the trickle became a flood.

Emergency call put out and the Avonmouth line was blocked, with the next train just leaving Redland.

Both crew members remained on train for their own safety as they were threatened and abused throughout the incident.

BTP called and deal with the incident.

The service was suspended for several hours until the situation could be brought under control.

We aren't taking about an hour in a sealed no AC train, we have 5-10 minutes with information as to why.

The crew, police and company did well. Shame can't be said for the people who had mo regard for their won safety nor the law of the land.

NX

Thank you for a full and proper explanation of what actually happened, especially the threats to staff.

 

[Dave1987]

...if it's an accurate version of events. For one thing, I'd be impressed if passengers were "trying to get into the cab" as that would mean- on a 150/1- that they'd already broken in to the secure vestibule and were breaking a second door.

I suspect the truth is more that, due to the overcrowding, people were trying to get a bit more space for themselves. I've seen passengers do it on the 313s before. Inexcusable, but a little bit different from getting in the cab and decking the driver.

As for "abuse", I'm sure passengers will have been effing and blinding at being stuck on an overcrowded train for no good reason.

Firstly I will say it again if the train was *that* crowded why did they even board the train? No one forces you to board.

Secondly there is no reason what so ever for being abusive to staff.

I think it's pretty shocking how some people are making it sound like its perfectly acceptable to force the doors on a train and walk down the "live" running lines if you feel you have been stood still too long. Even safety critical staff with PTS training never go onto live running lines unless you have to. Yes the whole situation was not acceptable and a full review needs to take place into the circumstances involved BUT it also needs to be made clear that it is not safe for passengers to just force doors and walk down the track.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think it's pretty shocking how some people are making it sound like its perfectly acceptable to force the doors on a train and walk down the "live" running lines if you feel you have been stood still too long. Even safety critical staff with PTS training never go onto live running lines unless you have to. Yes the whole situation was not acceptable and a full review needs to take place into the circumstances involved BUT it also needs to be made clear that it is not safe for passengers to just force doors and walk down the track.

It depends what you mean by "acceptable".

It seems clear that in this case it wasn't acceptable (notwithstanding that I think the train should have given the overcrowding been held in the platform pending the signal, assuming it is visible from the platform, just to make things easier for the passengers and avoid any possible problem). But if I were trapped on an overcrowded train with no aircon, sealed windows and no toilets for a long period, I would certainly consider the use of the egress (if only to open the doors for ventilation), and would happily go to Court to defend my actions if the BTP decided further action was appropriate.

Edit: Though I wouldn't be stupid enough to alight onto, or into the loading gauge of, a running line.

It really depends on the circumstances. The railway does not have a good record at this at all, even if in this case it seems it was just unnecessary thuggery and rebelliousness that caused the problem.

 

[bramling]

...if it's an accurate version of events. For one thing, I'd be impressed if passengers were "trying to get into the cab" as that would mean- on a 150/1- that they'd already broken in to the secure vestibule and were breaking a second door.

I suspect the truth is more that, due to the overcrowding, people were trying to get a bit more space for themselves. I've seen passengers do it on the 313s before. Inexcusable, but a little bit different from getting in the cab and decking the driver.

As for "abuse", I'm sure passengers will have been effing and blinding at being stuck on an overcrowded train for no good reason.

As I've said, I think trying to blame either the TOC or the passengers is misguided. What happened is a combination of both. If the train had stayed in the station, knowing what was going on elsewhere, then none of this would have happened. If the organisers had done their job properly it wouldn't have happened. If the passengers hadn't piled on to an overcrowded train it wouldn't have happened.

With hindsight, yes in this particular situation it would probably have been preferable for the train to have remained in the platform.

However if every train waited in a platform in case a red signal ahead might not clear, this would add up to a lot of delay - virtually all of the time for no good reason. Can the relevant signal be seen from Clifton Down platform anyway? Was the incident with the Avonmouth train known about in time for a message to reach the Bristol-bound train? Given the train was supposedly so overcrowded, we can assume peopl were probably left behind on Clifton Down platform - in which case perhaps the train crew thought it was safer to leave the platform as soon as possible before even more people turned up?

What could the railway have done to avoid this? Anticipated the event and arranged crowd control at Clifton Down? Possibly, but it has already been posted that this event might have been difficult to anticipate.

Sounds like a right bunch of idiots on the train, it's not like they were held for a long period of time at all. By the looks of it they were simply ****e off at the train being overcrowded (collectively their fault), ****ed off at a small delay (also collectively their fault), and then did something exceptionally stupid and detrained into the path of another train. If events really happened like this, it's a pity they didn't have a closer near-miss with the other train - a brush with death might have made these fools a little wiser for the future. (Although no doubt that would have been someone else's fault too...)

 

[Cinc026]

May I point out that those threatening staff were in a distinct minority, having witnessed the event myself? Not to justify their actions, obviously unacceptable, but let's not generalise all 200 students as being disrespectful thugs because that's simply untrue. The majority were simply trying to get to the festival punctually and safely. Most people aboard were simply distressed from the overcrowding. Please, please, can we not lay our disdain and blame onto one demographic when at least 2 parties were to blame for the incident (I hold the students, train company and festival organisers equally responsible)

Bramling - incorrect. Everyone from the platform made it onto the train. The train wasn't detrained into the PATH of another train. Very confused at where you're getting your information from. You are being very vindictive given your apparent ignorance of what actually happened. I really am sick and tired of this disdainful attitude towards young people. Yes we make mistakes, yes we are fallible beings, but ultimately we want to stay safe as well. We live and we learn, and in this situation whilst the students involved may have been foolish, ultimately found themselves in a regrettable situation which they had a partial (significant) hand in themselves. I doubt any one of them would want this situation to occur again, and of course they will learn from their mistake. However, your mutual willingness to cast them all aside as idiotic criminals I actually find very disturbing. A pitiful and hateful attitude.

A lot of the people on board that train are not used to busy commuting trains like many of you on this forum are. Many of them rarely travel by train, let alone in those conditions. Whilst I do not advocate or condone their behaviour or expect situations like this to occur, it is important to try and understand WHY people acted in the way they did, rather than slamming them for it before fully understanding the facts of the situation. Yes - most of the passengers on board that train were probably ignorant to what was acceptable in that situation but most of them had probably never been in a situation like it. Most of them wouldn't have much knowledge of railway laws, how trains work, how lines operate etc. etc., which most of you on this forum do. It's as much a matter of context as right or wrong, and I am sick to death of you all criticising my peers and casting them aside as horrible thugs and criminals when most of them are lovely people that found themselves in a pretty dire situation.

"...it's a pity they didn't have a closer near-miss with the other train - a brush with death might have made these fools a little wiser for the future." Would you like to go for a pint? You seem like a fantastic bloke. Do you always think before you say things or only occasionally do you use your head?

 

[Llanigraham]

May I point out that those threatening staff were in a distinct minority, having witnessed the event myself? Not to justify their actions, obviously unacceptable, but let's not generalise all 200 students as being disrespectful thugs because that's simply untrue. The majority were simply trying to get to the festival punctually and safely. Most people aboard were simply distressed from the overcrowding. Please, please, can we not lay our disdain and blame onto one demographic when at least 2 parties were to blame for the incident (I hold the students, train company and festival organisers equally responsible)

Bramling - incorrect. Everyone from the platform made it onto the train. The train wasn't detrained into the PATH of another train. Very confused at where you're getting your information from. You are being very vindictive given your apparent ignorance of what actually happened. I really am sick and tired of this disdainful attitude towards young people. Yes we make mistakes, yes we are fallible beings, but ultimately we want to stay safe as well. We live and we learn, and in this situation whilst the students involved may have been foolish, ultimately found themselves in a regrettable situation which they had a partial (significant) hand in themselves. I doubt any one of them would want this situation to occur again, and of course they will learn from their mistake. However, your mutual willingness to cast them all aside as idiotic criminals I actually find very disturbing. A pitiful and hateful attitude.

A lot of the people on board that train are not used to busy commuting trains like many of you on this forum are. Many of them rarely travel by train, let alone in those conditions. Whilst I do not advocate or condone their behaviour or expect situations like this to occur, it is important to try and understand WHY people acted in the way they did, rather than slamming them for it before fully understanding the facts of the situation. Yes - most of the passengers on board that train were probably ignorant to what was acceptable in that situation but most of them had probably never been in a situation like it. Most of them wouldn't have much knowledge of railway laws, how trains work, how lines operate etc. etc., which most of you on this forum do. It's as much a matter of context as right or wrong, and I am sick to death of you all criticising my peers and casting them aside as horrible thugs and criminals when most of them are lovely people that found themselves in a pretty dire situation.

"...it's a pity they didn't have a closer near-miss with the other train - a brush with death might have made these fools a little wiser for the future." Would you like to go for a pint? You seem like a fantastic bloke. Do you always think before you say things or only occasionally do you use your head?

Para 1:
It doesn't matter if the abusive were a minority or not; staff should not be subjected to this by anyone!
If the train was overcrowded at Clifton why did so many people try to force their way on?

Para 2:
See the question above. Why did they make the train overloaded?
The train approached a red signal, therefore it was moving towards the path of an on-coming train.
Staying safe is NOT getting off a train onto a live railway track!

Para 3:
I don't see anyone calling your peers "thugs", but their trespass on a railway line is criminal trespass.

I suggest you read again the factual account from a member of staff who seems to have the full information.

 

[Cinc026]

Para 1:

- I agree with you, the abuse of staff is not okay in any situation.
-The train wasn't initially overcrowded; people had been waiting for ~15 minutes for the next (when I arrived - a significant number of people were at the station already and had presumably been waiting too) and by the time the train arrived, too many people boarded what was at the time quite an empty train.

Para 2:

-Whilst the train was overcrowded, as people have pointed out it was no more crowded than the tube at rush-hour. What I think exacerbated the situation was our ignorance of the signal prior to boarding. If this was known to the driver, and knowing how packed the train was, couldn't he have stayed stationary, giving the passengers the choice of safely leaving the train? A matter of initiative and intelligence which was clearly needed at that point
-There are accounts of people having anxiety attacks and fainting as a result of the conditions on the train - it was a pretty spontaneous decision for the doors to be opened in order to try and alleviate the suffering of those who were having a terrible time. It wasn't just w**kers shouting, screaming and being rebellious for the sake of being rebellious, as has been implied an unfathomably ridiculous amount on this forum.

Para 3:

-Lots of people have been knee-jerking, accusing my peers of "thuggery", accusing them of "idiocy" when actually the situation was dire and had anyone else with our limited experience of dealing with such situations been present, I imagine their reactions would have been similar. I agree that it was technically "criminal trespass" but to allege that 200 students here are justifiably "criminal" is surely a myopic point of view given the apparent nature of the situation? Please alleviate your love for the railway for a second here and try and see this from a broader perspective.

Then again, if you'd rather see all of us as intolerably bad people who like messing things up for everyone else then by all means but that's just not the truth. Having spoken to my peers about the issue (I write for Epigram), none of us ever want to experience anything like it. Nor do we cause trouble for the sake of causing trouble, nor do my peers want a criminal smear against their names for the forseeable future, in what is obviously an important time for them career-wise. Do those who had a panic attack on the train, as a result of this cock-up, deserve prosecution as a result of this? Obviously not. Yet some people on this forum are baying for their blood. I hope you can understand that much and our mutual horror at experiencing this reaction.

A member of staff who inevitably has an equally bent perspective in favour of the railway that he/she works for. I inevitably have a bent perspective given that I'm a student of the University of Bristol. Clearly, there are faults on both sides, yet people here seem far too inclined to shunt us all into the corner of brash, thuggy teenagers that will forever make poor decisions. Sick of it. I'm willing for the students to accept some responsibility for what happened, but what I have read here on behalf of the railway has entailed utter obstinacy, preferring to see the issue as being totally the fault of 200 panic-stricken students. That is not on, take your share of the blame as we have.

You lot have dealt and some of you regularly seem to deal with situations like this. It wasn't disrespect for the laws of the land, it was for the most part, ignorance!! It was deemed an emergency by people onboard and I doubt many students who have no experience working with the railway are aware of the exact protocol, and indeed laws and byelaws involved!!!!!!! I don't see how you guys can't understand that! That said, we sure do now!! Mistakes were made by the students on the day as I have conceded in every post that I've made, but the total lack of sympathy at your end I find most shocking. Particularly with some people wishing my peers and friends had come closer to death so as to learn a more profound lesson, *AHEM* Bramling. How is that an OK reaction?

But yeah, you're obviously all right, we're just disrespectful pr**ks who obtain great pleasure from 'inconveniencing' railways and being generally obnoxious. Please, context and perspective are always important.

 

[Tetchytyke]

some people are making it sound like its perfectly acceptable to force the doors on a train and walk down the "live" running lines if you feel you have been stood still too long.

Understanding why someone might do something doesn't mean I condone it.

Clearly they shouldn't have forced the doors and in this case, as with other similar cases, forcing the doors just makes the whole situation ten times worse for everyone.

But if we don't take some time to understand why these things happen, then the same thing is doomed to happen time and time again.

 

[Cinc026]

Arctic gets it! I'm not saying that what happened was the RIGHT course of action, all I'm saying is that what happened was an unfortunate result of many factors that went wrong, fuelled by youthful ignorance and over-excitement, and mis-management in other areas (not just the railway).

The doors weren't forced just because the train was stood still for too long, by the way. As I have said and as you can find out if you read the now extensive source material on this topic, people were having anxiety attacks and others fainting. It was deemed an emergency by said passengers, it wasn't just straight up rebellious behaviour. It's great if you and other commuters who regularly deal with such conditions are capable of managing them - but put 200 young people in a similar situation, not all of whom are used to dealing with said situation - unexpected and unfortunate things are going to happen. Remember that young people try to impress their friends, wouldn't want to be seen as "uncool" or "pathetic" for not boarding a train. In some cases, particularly at University, image comes before sense. Obviously this is stupid, but it's part of the truth. This is why more needs to be done next year to ensure that these young people get to the site safely, with co-ordination between the festival organisers and the necessary transport links. Things need to be read carefully and assessed objectively, bearing every factor in mind. You lot were young once.

 

[sheff1]

When the Avommouth train arrived at Redladn ASB occurred which delayed its progress towards Clifton.

OK, I seem to be the only person who doesn't know what an 'ASB' is .... but, as I don't, can someone enlighten me please.

 

[cjohnson]

Anti-social behaviour?

 

[sheff1]

Anti-social behaviour?

Makes sense. Thanks.

 

[Cinc026]

[deleted]

 

[Dave1987]

Arctic gets it! I'm not saying that what happened was the RIGHT course of action, all I'm saying is that what happened was an unfortunate result of many factors that went wrong, fuelled by youthful ignorance and over-excitement, and mis-management in other areas (not just the railway).

The doors weren't forced just because the train was stood still for too long, by the way. As I have said and as you can find out if you read the now extensive source material on this topic, people were having anxiety attacks and others fainting. It was deemed an emergency by said passengers, it wasn't just straight up rebellious behaviour. This is why we need to read things carefully and assess them objectively.

Sorry but "youthful ignorance and over excitement" has caused a serious and potentially life threatening situation to occur. If the doors were opened because people were having anxiety attacks and fainting then why did they start walking down the track towards the station? If the doors were opened cess side and people literally wanted to escape the crash by standing away from the train your could say that's reasonable up to a point. But they pulled the doors and then started walking back towards the station which is why people are saying about "rebellious students".

 

[Cinc026]

On the most part the doors were opened cess side. Most people got out cess side. The doors were initially opened because people were having anxiety attacks. I suppose everyone just wanted to get away from the chaos on the train, and I also suppose that a presumption was made that given that there was a train on the tracks 200 metres from Clifton station, there was no risk of a crash. Perhaps that was a false presumption but the lack of a crash and the lack of any serious injuries seems to validate it as a safe one to make. I agree that it's a serious and potentially life threatening situation, but this one isn't all on us.

https://twitter.com/EpigramNews/status/648183969083752448/photo/1?ref_src=twsrc^tfw

Most people, aside from 4-5 idiots, are walking cess-side back to the station. This is VISIBLE from the photo. You can also clearly see in the bottom right someone sitting down as a result of the chaos.

http://epigram.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/X-train3.jpg

Again, cess-side. Do I really need to keep linking these? Or do you get the point yet?

 

[Tetchytyke]

If the doors were opened because people were having anxiety attacks and fainting then why did they start walking down the track towards the station?

To get away from the train and the situation?

If the industry doesn't begin to understand why people react like this in this situation, it'll continue to happen.

And the talk of students is just wibble. This isn't an isolated example. Passengers letting themselves off is a fairly regular occurrence on DOO services in south east London, and it isn't drunken students doing it there.

 

[Cinc026]

Also, would you rather them just stand cess-side, adjacent to the dangerous tracks (as has been observed so voraciously on this thread) indefinitely or use their initiative and make their way back to the safety of the station (walking cess-side as most did), escaping the situation and also finding their way home or another safer, more fool-proof yet more expensive route to their destination such as a cab?? Standing there like a lemon is not going to help anyone. Not necessarily the LAWFUL thing to do, but once they had got off the chaotic train you surely can't expect them to just stand there?

 

[Henbury Loop]

Nobody should have exited the train, make whatever excuses you want - that was a ludicrous decision.

I hope each and every person that did so, concious or not gets prosecuted for the dangerous act.

 

[Cinc026]

Nobody should have exited the train, make whatever excuses you want - that was a ludicrous decision.

I hope each and every person that did so, concious or not gets prosecuted for the dangerous act.

Thank god you're not the one making the decisions.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Nobody should have exited the train, make whatever excuses you want - that was a ludicrous decision.

I hope each and every person that did so, concious or not gets prosecuted for the dangerous act.

And they quite possibly will, BTP certainly seems to be making those sorts of noises. But whether they *should* or not they *did*. That's something the railway will need to look at for the future.

If passengers always did what they should do, the railway would be a whole lot easier to run.

 

[Cinc026]

[deleted]

 

[Henbury Loop]

Looks like you had great fun on the railway back in July too!

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?p=2232131

 

[Cinc026]

A 1 off. Wasn't actually personally involved in this 1 either.

 

[Dave1987]

And they quite possibly will, BTP certainly seems to be making those sorts of noises. But whether they *should* or not they *did*. That's something the railway will need to look at for the future.

If passengers always did what they should do, the railway would be a whole lot easier to run.

I whole heartedly agree.

 

[Henbury Loop]

A 1 off. Wasn't actually personally involved in this 1 either.

Well you certainly have a lot to say to try and justify the incident!

 

[Cinc026]

I accept that mistakes were made by the students, but what I don't get is the vitriol? Could someone please explain why you want everyone involved who suffered at the time to suffer further?

I'm not trying to justify the incident. I'm trying to explain why certain decisions were made. If you had a panic attack, or a heart attack on the train, I'm sure you would want medical attention as soon as possible. You wouldn't want to be surrounded, crammed onto a packed train? All I'm asking for is understanding

 

[bramling]

May I point out that those threatening staff were in a distinct minority, having witnessed the event myself? Not to justify their actions, obviously unacceptable, but let's not generalise all 200 students as being disrespectful thugs because that's simply untrue. The majority were simply trying to get to the festival punctually and safely. Most people aboard were simply distressed from the overcrowding. Please, please, can we not lay our disdain and blame onto one demographic when at least 2 parties were to blame for the incident (I hold the students, train company and festival organisers equally responsible)

Bramling - incorrect. Everyone from the platform made it onto the train. The train wasn't detrained into the PATH of another train. Very confused at where you're getting your information from. You are being very vindictive given your apparent ignorance of what actually happened. I really am sick and tired of this disdainful attitude towards young people. Yes we make mistakes, yes we are fallible beings, but ultimately we want to stay safe as well. We live and we learn, and in this situation whilst the students involved may have been foolish, ultimately found themselves in a regrettable situation which they had a partial (significant) hand in themselves. I doubt any one of them would want this situation to occur again, and of course they will learn from their mistake. However, your mutual willingness to cast them all aside as idiotic criminals I actually find very disturbing. A pitiful and hateful attitude.

A lot of the people on board that train are not used to busy commuting trains like many of you on this forum are. Many of them rarely travel by train, let alone in those conditions. Whilst I do not advocate or condone their behaviour or expect situations like this to occur, it is important to try and understand WHY people acted in the way they did, rather than slamming them for it before fully understanding the facts of the situation. Yes - most of the passengers on board that train were probably ignorant to what was acceptable in that situation but most of them had probably never been in a situation like it. Most of them wouldn't have much knowledge of railway laws, how trains work, how lines operate etc. etc., which most of you on this forum do. It's as much a matter of context as right or wrong, and I am sick to death of you all criticising my peers and casting them aside as horrible thugs and criminals when most of them are lovely people that found themselves in a pretty dire situation.

"...it's a pity they didn't have a closer near-miss with the other train - a brush with death might have made these fools a little wiser for the future." Would you like to go for a pint? You seem like a fantastic bloke. Do you always think before you say things or only occasionally do you use your head?

You don't just let yourself off a train which has been held at a signal for a few minutes. This is *not* normal behaviour, nor acceptable. Like it or not, when you choose to travel by train, you accept certain conditions - which are backed up by law. These conditions are there for everyone's safety -- if you don't like this, don't use a train.

I don't care if the people concerned were young, old, students or otherwise - where did I generalise about young people?

I have seen, dealt with and witnessed at close-hand the clear-up after the uninitiated have found their way onto railway tracks, and the result is not something anyone would wish to experience. It's *not* worth ending up like this to get off an overcrowded train (that the individuals *chose* to board), and certainly not just to get punctually to an event.

I find it disturbing that a surprising number people on here seem to be going some way to condoning these people. I can understand the Kentish Town incident where they were stuck on a crowded hot unventilated broken-town train in a tunnel for a long period with little or no communication. However this incident simply bears no similarity to that.

 

[Dave1987]

I despair. Are you all emotionless automatons incapable of empathy? Is this what life does to people?

So what if one of you was killed by a train on the other running line? Its not about empathy at all, its about a group of people who put themselves in serious danger.

 

[Cinc026]

Okay fine - the students messed up and their actions did not correlate with the reality of the situation. They could have suffered to a greater extent, but I maintain that my peers are not bad people and did not act in the way that they did out of malicious intent. Mistakes were made.

So what if one of you was killed by a train on the other running line? Its not about empathy at all, its about a group of people who put themselves in serious danger.

What if one of them died on the train?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I find it disturbing that a surprising number people on here seem to be going some way to condoning these people.

Explaining behaviour and condoning behaviour aren't the same thing. It is for instance possible to explain the behaviour of someone committing assault (by looking at the trigger factor), but it cannot be condoned nor justified.