Virgin confirm seeking approval for additional calls in Trent Valley

[pt_mad]

Source: Modern Railways Magazine, issue November 2015 page 63

Virgin has confirmed that it is seeking approval to add additional calls at Trent Valley stations and at Rugby from the May 2016 timetable. Mr Whittingham explained: 'We've had a lot of calls from local people asking for more stops, especially at weekends, and people have said that one or two more trains a day would help. More markets need to be built before HS2 opens and so we're looking at how these stations fit into the calling pattern. Any approval will require proof that we will deliver net growth to the market, but now that work has been completed we can take advantage of the engineering time we've gained to add extra stops without impacting on overall journey times as well as speeding up other key services.'

Phil Whittingham is Virgin Trains' Managing Director https://www.virgintrains.co.uk/about/management-team


Surprising after all this time. Maybe the popularity of the LM Trent Valley services has drawn Virgin's attention to that potential market. Either way sounds like it could be great news for the stations involved should it come to fruition.

 

[Bungle965]

Hmmm i wonder if they do get approved what will stop there. At a guess i would probably say the Liverpool Lime Street service.
Sam

 

[pt_mad]

Always thought they could do with at last one off-peak Euston bound service per day from Nuneaton, to polish up some of the day-tripper market.

Also more options for returning from London on a Saturday night. Theres an 1800 call at Nun (from Eus) and 2000. Could do with the 1900 Liverpool passer stopping. Article mentions weekends. Could be an option.

 

[Mag_seven]

I always felt a bit sorry for Nuneaton passengers. They used to have an hourly Intercity service to London, then suffered months of disruption due to the upgrade to end up with an inferior service operated by an LM unit.

 

[The Planner]

From what I have heard this isnt as easy to sort as first thought, bit of jiggling about to be done. Agree that its likely to be a Liverpool that will get stopped, obviously journey time isnt an issue as Rugby carries a bit of a penalty as well as the Liverpools being quite well loaded.

 

[pt_mad]

From what I have heard this isnt as easy to sort as first thought, bit of jiggling about to be done. Agree that its likely to be a Liverpool that will get stopped, obviously journey time isnt an issue as Rugby carries a bit of a penalty as well as the Liverpools being quite well loaded.

As regards Nuneaton they could stop the Manchester - Euston service which passes Nuneaton 1020 weekdays (1A17). The next service to follow this on the fast is a 1036 pass (Chester - Euston service) so next to no changes required.

That would at least give Nuneaton an off-peak Virgin train to London weekdays which they don't currently have - with very little change required.

Weekday Morning off-peak calling pattern would then be:
calls Nun at:
0928 - for London Euston arrives 1049 - L.M. service
1020 - for London Euston arrives 1122 - Virgin Trains service
1036 - for London Euston arrives 1149 - L.M. service
then hourly at xx36 L.M. service


For Saturdays a 1903 stop at Nun (Euston - Liverpool service 1F22 passes Nun 1900) would give Nuneaton a near enough hourly evening return service from London again with next to no change. The next train to follow this on the down fast line is at 1809 (Euston - Chester train) which is the same setup as an hour earlier when the Liverpool actually stops at Nuneaton at 1803.


I'm sure this has all been looked at but its fun to speculate.

 

[Camden]

Liverpool's west coast trains carry more passengers (per train) than those coming from Manchester, so with one train an hour versus three, why is it assumed Liverpool's will stop?

As someone who uses these trains, I'll find it infuriating if they are even fuller. I'm always able to get advance tickets when working in Manchester yet rarely able to to Liverpool.

 

[70014IronDuke]

Surprising after all this time. Maybe the popularity of the LM Trent Valley services has drawn Virgin's attention to that potential market.

Exactly my thoughts on first reading this. And I don't think Virgen WC should be allowed to just cherry pick some of the best passengers from LM as and when they want to.

the TV stations were there in front of their eyes for years, and Virgin management clearly dismissed the potential, preferring longer-distance passengers.

Someone (who? he/she deserves a medal) planned for a semi-fast service when the whole line was upgraded (and mostly four-tracked) and LM took on the risk.

And now - it seems to me - Virgin think they can just come along and scoop the new cream off the top? If I was LM I'd want some compensation if they do.

 

[Mag_seven]

Liverpool's west coast trains carry more passengers (per train) than those coming from Manchester, so with one train an hour versus three, why is it assumed Liverpool's will stop?

As someone who uses these trains, I'll find it infuriating if they are even fuller. I'm always able to get advance tickets when working in Manchester yet rarely able to to Liverpool.

Would agree that it is better to stop one of the three an hour Manchester services than the only one an hour Liverpool service bearing in mind that the Liverpool services have already had an additional stop added at Crewe.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Maybe the popularity of the LM Trent Valley services has drawn Virgin's attention to that potential market.

Couldn't be anything to do with much lower fares LM charge could it...?

 

[70014IronDuke]

I always felt a bit sorry for Nuneaton passengers. They used to have an hourly Intercity service to London, then suffered months of disruption due to the upgrade to end up with an inferior service operated by an LM unit.

Well, yes and no.

It's true that the new service means far fewer full inter-city type services to London (and Stafford/Crewe/Liverpool), but in terms of general connectivity, Nuneaton has surely never had it so good?

Previously most of the Liverpools calling were non-stop to Euston, so any Nuneatonite seeking to get to Rugby, Northampton, Milton Keynes (less so), had a miserable task.
As for other TV line stations - the possibility was largely non-existent.

Once the LM service began, the wander-lust Nuneatoner - along with all the others on the route - can get to Rugby/M Keynes/Stafford/Stoke and to each other station every hour.

It's an astonishing improvement, and long overdue, I would suggest.

 

[Camden]

Would agree that it is better to stop one of the three an hour Manchester services than the only one an hour Liverpool service bearing in mind that the Liverpool services have already had an additional stop added at Crewe.

Ironically that's actually handy, as I can get one of the (emptier) Manchester trains and change at Crewe where there are now more onward calling services as a result.

No such advantage to trent valley stations though.

 

[pt_mad]

Would agree that it is better to stop one of the three an hour Manchester services than the only one an hour Liverpool service bearing in mind that the Liverpool services have already had an additional stop added at Crewe.

Could it be though that when Norton Bridge junction is finished, there will be 2 x Liverpool services per hour?

Also the 0846 Nuneaton - Euston service is a Manchester - Euston service so its not saying they definatly wouldn't stop one or two ex-Manchester's in the Trent is it?

 

[Camden]

Could it be though that when Norton Bridge junction is finished, there will be 2 x Liverpool services per hour?

Also the 0846 Nuneaton - Euston service is a Manchester - Euston service so its not saying they definatly wouldn't stop one or two ex-Manchester's in the Trent is it?

My understanding is that there were already supposed to be two an hour, but the train accident involving one of their fleet scuppered that. I haven't heard anything since. It really is a nuisance to have just one train an hour, and ridiculous for such a large city.

 

[pt_mad]

My understanding is that there were already supposed to be two an hour, but the train accident involving one of their fleet scuppered that. I haven't heard anything since. It really is a nuisance to have just one train an hour, and ridiculous for such a large city.

Surely its not just that they are 1 train set short from having a 2 x hourly Liverpool service? Otherwise they could have retained the Pretendolino on the West Mids service and used the relief train set to allow for a second Liverpool.

 

[Camden]

Surely its not just that they are 1 train set short from having a 2 x hourly Liverpool service? Otherwise they could have retained the Pretendolino on the West Mids service and used the relief train set to allow for a second Liverpool.

No idea. Given the amount of effort spent pushing the London to Manchester cheap seats, perhaps having a service which requires no promotional effort appeals! Let's face it, if there are more bums on seats on one train then it equals higher profits than if they had to run three.

All I know is, it's infuriating!

 

[pt_mad]

No idea. Given the amount of effort spent pushing the London to Manchester cheap seats, perhaps having a service which requires no promotional effort appeals! Let's face it, if there are more bums on seats on one train then it equals higher profits than if they had to run three.

All I know is, it's infuriating!

Exactly! And it appears that the xx15 Manchester - Euston service has nothing following it fast line through the Trent for another 16 minutes (off-peak). So it could take a 4 minute penalty for a stop.

This is however one of the fast Stockport, Stoke, MKC only ones.



Could the Chesters not be a viable possibility for stops? Noting that it would seem more likely in the Northbound direction as there is space on the fast line following them.

 

[Camden]

Possibly, although those themselves always seem quite full when I've seen them.

Re the Manchester fast, perhaps that might make sense also in that it provides an interchange for Birmingham?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

It will take more than 1 extra Pendolino for 2tph Liverpools (and they might have to be shared with Preston).
No more Pendolinos till after 2018 anyway (if then).

Isn't it likely that Rugby and Nuneaton will get alternate stops?
I don't think Virgin are talking about regular hourly off-peak stops.
Alliance will be stopping in the Trent Valley (when they get trains).

 

[thenorthern]

Me thinks Virgin are worried they are going to lose revenue to Alliance Rail holdings as they are planning to stop at Nuneaton, Tamworth and Lichfield Trent Valley on their Blackpool services post 2018.

I will be interested in how the new timetable would be planned out as in my opinion there should be 2 Trent Valley stopping services between Rugby and Stafford each hour but I doubt that this is what Virgin Trains is planning.

 

[30907]

In pre upgrade days, Rugby and Nuneaton were served by long distance TV services, Tamworth and LIchfield just had a couple of trains each.
The original Virgin proposals with 140mph running would have allowed this too, but reducing top speed to 125mph meant cutting stops to preserve headline times and, more important, to allow something near the original planned frequency.
Hence the Crewe service, which was a bolt-on to give the TV stations a reasonable London service (more frequent but slow) - and which LM presumably now want to protect from competition.

 

[swt_passenger]

I don't think Virgin are talking about regular hourly off-peak stops.

Clearly not. The Modern Railways quote in the first post refers to only one or two additional calls per day.

 

[The Planner]

As regards Nuneaton they could stop the Manchester - Euston service which passes Nuneaton 1020 weekdays (1A17). The next service to follow this on the fast is a 1036 pass (Chester - Euston service) so next to no changes required.

That could work as it doesn't clash at Rugby.

Looking at the down direction again, the suggestion of sticking a Nuneaton in the Chester/Holyhead could work as you should be able to get out infront of the Manchester but it puts it very close to the LM stop and would likely require the Brum Liverpool to go slow line from Stafford.

Putting it in the xx.20 Manchester off Euston would be tight as the Glasgow would get close. The xx.40 should work. The xx.00 would be tight with the Liverpool behind it. That is without checking if it works at Colwich, Crewe or Cheadle Hulme.

 

[Ianno87]

Exactly! And it appears that the xx15 Manchester - Euston service has nothing following it fast line through the Trent for another 16 minutes (off-peak). So it could take a 4 minute penalty for a stop.

This is however one of the fast Stockport, Stoke, MKC only ones.

The xx15 Manchester-Euston (arr zz23) is followed on minimum headway from Ledburn Jn by the yy25 Northampton-Euston LM service (normally diagrammed for 110mph units, but timed at 100mph.)

If the Manchester had 4 minutes put into it by adding a Nuneaton call, you'd have to put the LM in front at Ledburn instead. This is probably doable by departing Northampton earlier, as the unit already works through from Brum and stands for around 11 minutes or so.

The Down xx20 Euston-Manchester could replicate this as it could just about call at Nuneaton and be away in front of the xx30 Euston-Glasgow (the xx23 Euston-Brum being between them as far as Rugby), before diving out of the way at Colwich.

It would be through Stoke about 3-4 minutes later which might cause problems *but* the Norton Bridge works could help by giving some flexibility in the XC paths on the corridor.

 

[Morgsie]

This is all about competition and Virgin West Coast responding to Alliance Rail and the success of the London Midland services in the Trent Valley.

This has to go through the formal processes like what happened with Shrewsbury and Blackpool and it will be interesting to see the responses from Network Rail and the Office of Rail and Road is regarding these proposals.

The devil is in the details

 

[Bevan Price]

That could work as it doesn't clash at Rugby.

Looking at the down direction again, the suggestion of sticking a Nuneaton in the Chester/Holyhead could work as you should be able to get out infront of the Manchester but it puts it very close to the LM stop and would likely require the Brum Liverpool to go slow line from Stafford.

.

LM running slow line between Stafford & Crewe adds no time penalty since the slow line limit north of Norton Bridge was raised to 100 mph. Of course it would be better if Stafford to Norton Bridge could also be raised to 100 mph.

Any gain in time by running at 110 mph on the fast lines is cancelled out by having to reduce speed to cross between slow & fast lines north of Stafford station.

 

[The Planner]

The xx15 Manchester-Euston (arr zz23) is followed on minimum headway from Ledburn Jn by the yy25 Northampton-Euston LM service (normally diagrammed for 110mph units, but timed at 100mph.)

If the Manchester had 4 minutes put into it by adding a Nuneaton call, you'd have to put the LM in front at Ledburn instead. This is probably doable by departing Northampton earlier, as the unit already works through from Brum and stands for around 11 minutes or so.

Good point, I didnt go as far as Ledburn.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Any gain in time by running at 110 mph on the fast lines is cancelled out by having to reduce speed to cross between slow & fast lines north of Stafford station.

We will come to rue the day that Doxey wasn't sorted, madness that it wasn't.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Me thinks Virgin are worried they are going to lose revenue to Alliance Rail holdings as they are planning to stop at Nuneaton, Tamworth and Lichfield Trent Valley on their Blackpool services post 2018.

I will be interested in how the new timetable would be planned out as in my opinion there should be 2 Trent Valley stopping services between Rugby and Stafford each hour but I doubt that this is what Virgin Trains is planning.

Now LM are running quicker services to the Trent Valley at their bargain basement fares, I doubt everyone would switch to far more expensive VT to save a few minutes even if they did.

 

[Class 170101]

The xx.00 would be tight with the Liverpool behind it. That is without checking if it works at Colwich, Crewe or Cheadle Hulme.

But thats two services from Euston to Nuneaton (almost) one behind the other leaving London. The LM 110mph service would be empty.

 

[Bletchleyite]

But thats two services from Euston to Nuneaton (almost) one behind the other leaving London. The LM 110mph service would be empty.

I doubt it. If anything the VT would be nearly empty because of the extent to which LM undercut their fares.