Rolling stock announcement regarding TPE (updated)

[Bletchleyite]

Does anyone know why the 1546 from Manchester Pic to Blackpool now leaves a minute earlier and skips Salford Crescent and Buckshaw Parkway? Is it because they're crappy 156s or because of the tunnel works? It's a double 156, rammed, and late due to extended dwell times... who could have predicted that

That just goes to show how much rail demand in the North has gone up over the years. I used to be a frequent user of that train about 15 years ago (or one about that time) on a Wednesday afternoon, and it used to be a double 156 and everyone had a table to themselves.

 

[samj]

Many changes to the Blackpool line in October. Finally getting the Hazel Grove service extended as a replacement which brings back a few Blackpool-Buxton services. Only two direct services a day between Liverpool and Blackpool

 

[Blindtraveler]

is this due to the wires going live?

 

[Starmill]

I don't think they will be going live, but the new alignment two-track tunnel will open at Farnworth by then.

 

[northwichcat]

The October changes relate to conditions of the Northern Direct Award. Northern were given a guarantee that they wouldn't lose any of their DMUs without receiving replacement trains. However, DfT decided to let TPE loan 6 x 156s on a daily basis and allocated Northern some extra 319s as replacements. For Northern to use the 319s they will have to split most Liverpool South Parkway-Blackpool trains, as the Blackpool wires won't be ready until 2017. (Although the Preston-Blackpool will be closed for quite a while from December 2016.)

 

[Greybeard33]

It was stated at the beginning of this thread that TPE's four remaining 170s would go to Chiltern in February 2016. It is now Feb 2016, and I have not seen an announcement of a delay to the transfer, or of any plan for TPE to get replacement stock. Does anyone know anything?

I guess the worst case scenario is that two double 185 diagrams on North TPE will have to be short formed so that single 185s can take over each of the double 170 diagrams on South TPE?

 

[Buspilot]

For Northern to use the 319s they will have to split most Liverpool South Parkway-Blackpool trains, as the Blackpool wires won't be ready until 2017.

Which is exactly what happens now. Change at Preston on to/from already frequent existing services from Blackpool. Not a problem.

 

[edwin_m]

It was stated at the beginning of this thread that TPE's four remaining 170s would go to Chiltern in February 2016. It is now Feb 2016, and I have not seen an announcement of a delay to the transfer, or of any plan for TPE to get replacement stock. Does anyone know anything?

It has been mentioned in another thread that extension of Chiltern service to Oxford main station has been delayed, so perhaps the 170s are not needed so soon after all.

 

[Starmill]

Which is exactly what happens now. Change at Preston on to/from already frequent existing services from Blackpool. Not a problem.

It only happens now because the post you quoted is so old that at the time, 1tph was a through train.

 

[WatcherZero]

It has been mentioned in another thread that extension of Chiltern service to Oxford main station has been delayed, so perhaps the 170s are not needed so soon after all.

The loss of the 170's only been delayed from April to July.

 

[Greybeard33]

The loss of the 170's only been delayed from April to July.

Yes - from another thread:

Info from one of the managers who attended.

(snip)

Last news I heard (last week) was that the plan was that fewer 185s would be subleased to Northern on the North West side than originally intended which would allow more 185 diagrams on the south route. No news on dates though.

EDIT : I am told 11th July or thereabouts is when they go. A farewell tour is planned for 3rd July. Shuffle rounds at Northern including some Hazel Grove services being operated by 319s frees up some units apparently, which means they need less 185s, thus more 185s stay at TPE. Believe only 3 (possibly 4) 185s to be subleased to Northern.

 

[Class 170101]

The loss of the 170's only been delayed from April to July.

Just a thought that occurred to me could Chiltern not borrow the 172s from LOROL from May to December 2016 instead of pinching TPE 170s in July?

LOROL will need fewer DMUs between May and September and from September to December no DMUs at all by account of the Gospel Oak to Barking blockade for electrification.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

The loss of the 170's only been delayed from April to July.

Then we will get the 442's!

 

[northwichcat]

Which is exactly what happens now. Change at Preston on to/from already frequent existing services from Blackpool. Not a problem.

They kept a few through services, which in the winter timetable includes the ones which people would usually use to get to and from the Illuminations.

How it works in summer when there are many families and many suitcases being conveyed is a different matter. Note that some people will have already changed at Lime Street to join a Preston service and then will then have to change again at Preston.

 

[Bovverboy]

It was stated at the beginning of this thread that TPE's four remaining 170s would go to Chiltern in February 2016. It is now Feb 2016, and I have not seen an announcement of a delay to the transfer, or of any plan for TPE to get replacement stock. Does anyone know anything?

I guess the worst case scenario is that two double 185 diagrams on North TPE will have to be short formed so that single 185s can take over each of the double 170 diagrams on South TPE?

Since the TPE 170 fleet was reduced to four units, the daily turnout has been one double and one single. However, in capacity terms, that equates to two 185s.

 

[James_D]

Interesting point on the original press release posted by the OP:

Services between Manchester, West Yorkshire, North Yorkshire, Yorkshire Coast, Humberside and the Northeast
All services will be operated with a minimum of 3 carriages or 181 seats, whereas at present some services on the route are operated by 2 carriage trains with 116 seats.

Now correct me if i'm wrong, and this may have been old and innacurate information but with the Pacers going, that leaves just the 156's at Heaton and the 158's coming in for the Northern Connect services, obviously both 2-car units. Has there been some thought given to adding one of the spare 153's onto some of the 156's perhaps?

 

[northwichcat]

Now correct me if i'm wrong, and this may have been old and innacurate information but with the Pacers going, that leaves just the 156's at Heaton and the 158's coming in for the Northern Connect services, obviously both 2-car units. Has there been some thought given to adding one of the spare 153's onto some of the 156's perhaps?

The 153s at Northern are leaving.

That quote relates to TPE not Northern and 116 seater 2 car refers to the TPE 170s which are going to Chiltern.

 

[Greybeard33]

Since the TPE 170 fleet was reduced to four units, the daily turnout has been one double and one single. However, in capacity terms, that equates to two 185s.

For passengers whose current 4-car double 170 is replaced by a 3-car 185, it will be cold comfort that some other services have gone from 2-car to 3-car.

 

[Starmill]

For passengers whose current 4-car double 170 is replaced by a 3-car 185, it will be cold comfort that some other services have gone from 2-car to 3-car.

This already happened on a few Hull services when the first 170s went. They've never recovered.

 

[Bovverboy]

Originally Posted by James_D, from a DfT press release
Services between Manchester, West Yorkshire, North Yorkshire, Yorkshire Coast, Humberside and the Northeast
All services will be operated with a minimum of 3 carriages or 181 seats, whereas at present some services on the route are operated by 2 carriage trains with 116 seats.

That quote relates to TPE not Northern and 116 seater 2 car refers to the TPE 170s which are going to Chiltern.

The quote actually comes from a press release dated 8 January 2015, and relates to the intended transfer of the 170s away from the Hull and possibly other TPE routes (as originally intended, direct to Chiltern).

Originally Posted by Bovverboy
Since the TPE 170 fleet was reduced to four units, the daily turnout has been one double and one single. However, in capacity terms, that equates to two 185s.

For passengers whose current 4-car double 170 is replaced by a 3-car 185, it will be cold comfort that some other services have gone from 2-car to 3-car.

We don't know for sure that the double 170 will be replaced by a single 185, although I think it will be. If it is, it only returns the situation to that of May 2015, prior to which I'm sure all diagrams on Airport - Cleethorpes were covered by single 185s.
The following journeys (M/F) went on to a single 185 (ex double 170) from 16 May 2016, and I haven't heard that civil war has broken out.
0708 SHF - MIA
0855 MIA - CLE
1226 CLE - MIA
1555 ex MIA (was to DON, now CLE)
Of the journeys currently covered by a double 170, the following were covered by a single 170 until May, so a single 185 is still a considerable overall improvement.
0712 SHF - CLE
0926 CLE - MIA
1255 MIA - CLE
1625 ex CLE (was to DON, now MIA)
Which leaves the following as having been double 170-operated since May 2015.
1742 DON - MIA
1955 MIA - SHF
Loadings on individual journeys can be varied by adjustments to timings and/or stopping patterns, it's done all the time.

 

[keith1879]

For passengers whose current 4-car double 170 is replaced by a 3-car 185, it will be cold comfort that some other services have gone from 2-car to 3-car.

South transpennine services will all be formed of 6 car double 185s when the new services/stock are in place. Hull services will be 5 coach trains.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

Hull is retaining 185's as they will be used on the 'semi fasts' to picc along with the cleethorpes and middlesbrough routes. Leaving the mk5 and AT300's to cover LIV-EDB/SCA and MIA-NCL while the CAF EMUs LIV/MIA-EDB/GLC

The full confirmation of what and how will be allocated where is still to be revealed,

 

[Greybeard33]

South transpennine services will all be formed of 6 car double 185s when the new services/stock are in place. Hull services will be 5 coach trains.

Yes, but this thread is about the consequences of the cascade of TPE's 170s to Chiltern, which will be completed next month. TPE's new CAF stock is not scheduled to arrive before 2018.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The quote actually comes from a press release dated 8 January 2015, and relates to the intended transfer of the 170s away from the Hull and possibly other TPE routes (as originally intended, direct to Chiltern).

We don't know for sure that the double 170 will be replaced by a single 185, although I think it will be. If it is, it only returns the situation to that of May 2015, prior to which I'm sure all diagrams on Airport - Cleethorpes were covered by single 185s.
The following journeys (M/F) went on to a single 185 (ex double 170) from 16 May 2016, and I haven't heard that civil war has broken out.
0708 SHF - MIA
0855 MIA - CLE
1226 CLE - MIA
1555 ex MIA (was to DON, now CLE)
Of the journeys currently covered by a double 170, the following were covered by a single 170 until May, so a single 185 is still a considerable overall improvement.
0712 SHF - CLE
0926 CLE - MIA
1255 MIA - CLE
1625 ex CLE (was to DON, now MIA)
Which leaves the following as having been double 170-operated since May 2015.
1742 DON - MIA
1955 MIA - SHF
Loadings on individual journeys can be varied by adjustments to timings and/or stopping patterns, it's done all the time.

Adjustments to timings and stopping patterns normally only occur at the twice-yearly timetable changes, and even then changes that significantly vary loadings between individual services are rare.

My point was that 3x2-car units are similar. capacity-wise, to 2x3-car only when operated in 6-car formation, which is not currently the case with the TPE 170s.

An increase in capacity from 2-car to 3-car is only a considerable improvement if the 2-car service was previously full and standing. Was/is that the case with the off-peak/contra-peak single 170 workings, or is it a case of "making a virtue out of necessity"?

"Civil war" may not have broken out over the substitution of a 3-car 185 for a 4-car 170 on some South TPE services in May, nor is it likely when the remaining 4-car 170 services are substituted next month, but some of these are peak commuter services liable to become even more overcrowded. Demand may well have grown since they were last 185-worked before May 2015.

 

[Bovverboy]

Adjustments to timings and stopping patterns normally only occur at the twice-yearly timetable changes, and even then changes that significantly vary loadings between individual services are rare.

A timetable change twice a year might not seem very often, but, equally, loadings on a particular journey are not inclined to vary from minute to minute anyway. If a particular journey gets to the point where it needs attention, whether that by by way of adjustment to the timetable or capacity enhancement, then the likelihood is that the situation has been developing for a year or two.

My point was that 3x2-car units are similar. capacity-wise, to 2x3-car only when operated in 6-car formation, which is not currently the case with the TPE 170s.

I've gone back through your posts of the last twelve months and more, and can't find where you've said anything like the above.

An increase in capacity from 2-car to 3-car is only a considerable improvement if the 2-car service was previously full and standing. Was/is that the case with the off-peak/contra-peak single 170 workings, or is it a case of "making a virtue out of necessity"?

You seem to be going a bit against your own argument here. You're saying (effectively) that passengers going from a double 170 to a single 185 are going to be resentful of others going from a single 170 to a single 185, but now you seem to be saying that the latter situation is no big deal anyway.

"Civil war" may not have broken out over the substitution of a 3-car 185 for a 4-car 170 on some South TPE services in May, nor is it likely when the remaining 4-car 170 services are substituted next month, but some of these are peak commuter services liable to become even more overcrowded. Demand may well have grown since they were last 185-worked before May 2015.

Quite, but I'm sure the situation of a journey needing attention is something which is under constant review. Some journeys on the TPE South Pennine route are already covered by double 185s - three I know about are 1654FO MIA - CLE, 0911SuO SHF - MIA, and 1054SuO MIA - CLE, but I believe there are others.
Journeys might not get doubled when we might think they ought to be, but that will always be the case.

 

[Greybeard33]

I've gone back through your posts of the last twelve months and more, and can't find where you've said anything like the above.

Sorry I caused you so much trouble! I was merely attempting to clarify my post #288 above, which was responding to your statement that:

Since the TPE 170 fleet was reduced to four units, the daily turnout has been one double and one single. However, in capacity terms, that equates to two 185s.

The three 170s have six carriages between them, and so do the two 185s. However, in capacity terms they do not equate unless in 6-car formations. A single 185 has more capacity than a single 170 but less than a double 170.

Quite, but I'm sure the situation of a journey needing attention is something which is under constant review. Some journeys on the TPE South Pennine route are already covered by double 185s - three I know about are 1654FO MIA - CLE, 0911SuO SHF - MIA, and 1054SuO MIA - CLE, but I believe there are others.
Journeys might not get doubled when we might think they ought to be, but that will always be the case.

I am sure TPE keeps the loadings on its services under constant review, but until it gets additional trains all it can really do about overcrowding in the M/F peaks is to "rob Peter to pay Paul".

It may be arguable as to whether or not the two additional 185s are an adequate replacement for the three 170s on South TPE, but I think it is incontrovertible that the withdrawal of those two 185s from sublease to Northern in May and July 2016, and the consequent internal Northern DMU cascade to substitute more 156s on Manchester Airport - Blackpool/Barrow/Windermere services, has caused/will cause loss of capacity on various services across the Northern network, as discussed in several other threads. See for example Part of Northern/TPE solution to replace Chiltern bound 170s revealed, Changes to Hazel Grove/Chinley from May and Northern Class 185 Diagrams from May 2016. Windermere is one of the biggest losers. Since 16 May it no longer has M/F direct services to Manchester Airport, and from 11 July many of the M/F Windermere - Oxenholme shuttle services will be operated by a Sprinter (presumably 2-car) instead of a 3-car 185.

 

[Bletchleyite]

How long will it take to get the wires to Windermere? I notice that work has already started. Then presumably a 319 can be used, thus freeing up Sprinters.

As for Sprinters vs 185s, a 2-car 156 as built has only 7 fewer seats than a 3-car 185.

 

[Class 170101]

from 11 July many of the M/F Windermere - Oxenholme shuttle services will be operated by a Sprinter (presumably 2-car) instead of a 3-car 185.

Not much of a loss and probably quicker if the Sprinter Differentials have been kept.

 

[Greybeard33]

Not much of a loss and probably quicker if the Sprinter Differentials have been kept.

It would seem that not all forum members agree with you...

Who in their infinite wisdom decided that there was not enough demand for day trippers from Manchester to Windermere on the remaining service provision (somewhere about 0930 from Manchester Airport) with the opportunity for the first class provision in the Class 185 units that my good lady wife and I have always used in the past.. There was the opportunity to visit the lake for a pleasure cruise or just to enjoy the shops and museums and from the bus stop outside the station, buses ran to Ambleside, etc.

Perhaps we will have to settle for visits to Grange-over-Sands and Ulverston instead in the future...

Timings are unchanged between Oxenholme and Windermere, just slower on the WCML from/to Lancaster/Preston.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

How long will it take to get the wires to Windermere? I notice that work has already started. Then presumably a 319 can be used, thus freeing up Sprinters.

According to the Hendy Enhancements Delivery Plan March 2016 Update, the Indicative date for Oxenholme to Windermere Electrification GRIP 3 completion is March 2017. GRIP 6 start (start on site) is TBC, as are all subsequent dates.

 

[Bovverboy]

Originally Posted by Greybeard33
from 11 July many of the M/F Windermere - Oxenholme shuttle services will be operated by a Sprinter (presumably 2-car) instead of a 3-car 185.

As for Sprinters vs 185s, a 2-car 156 as built has only 7 fewer seats than a 3-car 185.

As built, I think the seating difference would have been only six - 163 (156) v 169 (185). Unfortunately, that's where the similarity ends. A 185 has, in addition to the 169 fixed seats, 12 tip-up ones, and much greater potential to accommodate standing passengers. The seating of a 156 has been reduced to c.150, presumably to accommodate an accessible toilet (which a 185 has anyway, as well as an additional standard one) and bicycle space. Were the first-class section of a 185 converted to standard (in order to compare like with like) the seating capacity would be increased by at least five.
All in all, a 156 is a poor substitute for a 185, but what sort of capacity is actually needed on the Windermere branch? I have to say I've no idea, I've never made the journey.

 

[Starmill]

In high summer, particularly weekends and bank holidays, and whenever the sun shines, a 3-car 185 is barely enough for the Windermere traffic.