Porterbrook Cl.769 'Flex' trains from 319s, initially for Northern

[CosherB]

All of this discussion on the back of a rumour ...... I'll believe it when I see it. hock:

 

[D365]

All of this discussion on the back of a rumour ......

That's the RUK way!

 

[158722]

No, a 4-car 150 formation with an engine out produces 639kW.

Also for accuracy (though helping my argument none ) a 4-car class 150 is around 150 tonnes in weight (150/1s are a bit heavier than 150/2s), while a 4-car Bi-mode class 319 will likely be closer to 160.

Class 150 vehicles are around 36t aren't they, so 145t for a 4-car set. A 4-car 319 is 140t, with comments noted elsewhere that this potential trial with MAN engines (of up to 530hp each) would add an extra 5t per DTSO, giving a D319 of something around the 150t mark.

Apart from the possible Windermere trial/use, would a reasonable suggestion for D319 use not be services where they can replace pairs of Pacers? Manchester to Rose Hill, Marple, Wigan via Atherton, Manchester to Southport, for example. D319 performance isn't likely to be brilliant, but sufficient to be comparable with Pacers, which as we know especially with the 142s, have the clock ticking against them towards 2020, but with numerous problems with the expected 15x/16x cascades due to electrification delays. Surely D319s wouldn't be expected to remain as 100mph capable (at least on diesel), but rather more 75mph Pacer replacements given there doesn't look like much chance of enough 15xs being available to see them cast off as planned?

 

[D60]

Around 21 months ago on the cl.230 thread, I suggested doing a 230-job on 507/508 units of which there were some redundant examples around at that time... having in mind some of the clear limitations of the D-train proposal, and the potential of such a conversion for Preston-Ormskirk, Kirkby-Wigan for instance...
But the suggestion fell on stony ground...
And some things change over time...
And some things stay the same..!

 

[northwichcat]

Around 21 months ago on the cl.230 thread, I suggested doing a 230-job on 507/508 units of which there were some redundant examples around at that time... having in mind some of the clear limitations of the D-train proposal, and the potential of such a conversion for Preston-Ormskirk, Kirkby-Wigan for instance...
But the suggestion fell on stony ground...
And some things change over time...
And some things stay the same..!

The redundant 508s were badly corroded, while the Merseyrail ones aren't still in good nick. With the 319s it's their reliability letting them down rather than the body work.

 

[JaJaWa]

All of this discussion on the back of a rumour ...... I'll believe it when I see it. hock:

As was said many times about the D Trains

 

[61653 HTAFC]

The redundant 508s were badly corroded, while the Merseyrail ones aren't still in good nick. With the 319s it's their reliability letting them down rather than the body work.

Would 315s be in a better state perhaps? They've been worked at least as hard as the 507/508s but I imagine the tunnel sections on Merseyside and slightly colder, wetter climate would see the 5xx units deteriorate quicker. Being aluminium I'd expect they'd be lighter than 319s, and having more motored axles would help with acceleration and dealing with leaf-fall or ice.

 

[NorthernSpirit]

So would the bi-mode results be called class 219?

I suppose that it would be.

Should ever a class 150 get the bimode treatment then maybe we could see a class 250, as with a 158 what about a ElectricExpress class 258 and if we're really desperate a class 244 EDMU ElectroPacer.

If a 377 or one of the other units in the Electrostar range gets converted to bimodes, it'd probably make sense to number them as class 277's / 27x's.

 

[Bletchleyite]

A Pacer with a pantograph? Good lord. It'd knock the wires down.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I suppose that it would be.

Should ever a class 150 get the bimode treatment then maybe we could see a class 250, as with a 158 what about a ElectricExpress class 258 and if we're really desperate a class 244 EDMU ElectroPacer.

If a 377 or one of the other units in the Electrostar range gets converted to bimodes, it'd probably make sense to number them as class 277's / 27x's.

Except it wouldn't. The units may well be renumbered in the 2xx range, but as there haven't been bi-mode units historically, they don't really have a logical place in the system (though the system has as many exceptions as rules, of course!).

Have numbers been reserved for the Anglia Stadler bi-modes yet? I'd expect new-build, non-IC bi-modes to go into the 6xx range (so they almost certainly won't!).

 

[superkev]

Would 315s be in a better state perhaps? They've been worked at least as hard as the 507/508s but I imagine the tunnel sections on Merseyside and slightly colder, wetter climate would see the 5xx units deteriorate quicker. Being aluminium I'd expect they'd be lighter than 319s, and having more motored axles would help with acceleration and dealing with leaf-fall or ice.

I thought aluminium diddnt corrode.
K

 

[43096]

Would 315s be in a better state perhaps? They've been worked at least as hard as the 507/508s but I imagine the tunnel sections on Merseyside and slightly colder, wetter climate would see the 5xx units deteriorate quicker. Being aluminium I'd expect they'd be lighter than 319s, and having more motored axles would help with acceleration and dealing with leaf-fall or ice.

313-315/507/508 aren't really suitable as they have two motor coaches (the DMSOs). The advantage of a 319 is that it has most of the traction equipment on one car, which ought to make the design easier.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

A Pacer with a pantograph? Good lord. It'd knock the wires down.

I hope that no-one mentions any Class 242 units on this thread...

 

[dgl]

I hope that no-one mentions any Class 242 units on this thread...

Nah, they are almost definitely/probably/might/never will be going to be used as stock for an open access service to London Waterloo and LHCS for ATW you need to keep up

Now if you could insert the pantograph coach from another mk3 based EMU then you might be going somewhere!

 

[northwichcat]

Nah, they are almost definitely/probably/might/never will be going to be used as stock for an open access service to London Waterloo and LHCS for ATW you need to keep up

Now if you could insert the pantograph coach from another mk3 based EMU then you might be going somewhere!

242s are off the cards. Paul Nuttall has just appeared on the TV saying the Pacers will be used to transport all the Romanians back to Romania in 2020 and they'll be keeping the Pacers unless they choose to ship them back at their own cost - which is unlikely.

 

[dgl]

242s are off the cards. Paul Nuttall has just appeared on the TV saying the Pacers will be used to transport all the Romanians back to Romania in 2020 and they'll be keeping the Pacers unless they choose to ship them back at their own cost - which is unlikely.

I thought that any country would pay any amount to get rid of the damn things, well Iran didn't but I class them as a special case.

And anyway I would have thought that any mention to the Romanians of being transported back on pacers would make them leave pretty quickly of their own accord.

 

[northwichcat]

well Iran didn't but I class them as a special case.

Iran paid us for the 141s and then took a dislike to all western countries. They obviously thought the west had screwed them over by selling them pretend trains!

 

[dgl]

Iran paid us for the 141s and then took a dislike to all western countries. They obviously thought the west had screwed them over by selling them pretend trains!

It was a secret plot to get the Iranian people to revolt against the government.

Who needs assassins when you've got 141's!

 

[Bevan Price]

No, we're going to be doing it at about 50mph, so we only need enough power to get there at a reasonable rate. Not to run at 100mph. Coincidentally, that's probably going to be about the same amount of power as you need to move a 9-car 800 at 20mph

Crikey, if raw power was what we needed, the 185s wouldn't shut down an engine when running on the branch.

What the Windermere branch needs is a train that can manage an all stations round trip every hour. A Class 185 can just about manage that (even with one engine shut down.) However, I have my doubts that even an all-electric 319 could manage such a schedule. Adding the weight of a diesel engine would make that worse. The main problem is that the low-speed acceleration of a 319 is rather slow - from 0 to 25 mph, even a Class 150 or 156 is faster. Moreover, especially in wet weather, 319s are prone to slipping, and it can get very wet in the Lake District.

 

[Bletchleyite]

What the Windermere branch needs is a train that can manage an all stations round trip every hour. A Class 185 can just about manage that (even with one engine shut down.) However, I have my doubts that even an all-electric 319 could manage such a schedule. Adding the weight of a diesel engine would make that worse. The main problem is that the low-speed acceleration of a 319 is rather slow - from 0 to 25 mph, even a Class 150 or 156 is faster. Moreover, especially in wet weather, 319s are prone to slipping, and it can get very wet in the Lake District.

An all-stations trip appears to take 19 minutes, which seems to me to give plenty of scope to even slow it down slightly (not that that would be great, but I mean it wouldn't be a problem). Ten minutes layover in the hour should be quite adequate - most bus services don't even allow that, and when it's running shuttles it's a completely self contained branch line with absolutely nothing to get in its way.

I really don't understand why they operate the cack-handed timetable they do and not a simple hourly clockface all-stations one based around the times of the through services, TBH. Same with Barrow.

(Reference: https://www.tpexpress.co.uk/mediafile/100077746/h_minitt_wdmguide_14dec2014-16may2015.pdf)

 

[randyrippley]

I read somewhere that EDMUs were considered for Waterloo-Exeter, and laughed out of the window.
So whats changed to make an EDMU viable now?

 

[Class 170101]

A Pacer with a pantograph? Good lord. It'd knock the wires down.

Surely you mean it would bone shake them down

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Maximum line speed on the 10-mile Windermere branch is 60mph.
I don't think the wires currently cover all the branch platform.
A bi-mode 319 would also suit Preston-Lancaster-Morecambe (55max on the 2-mile branch, plus 2 miles on the main line).
Presumably they would have to switch modes while stationary.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Maximum line speed on the 10-mile Windermere branch is 60mph.
I don't think the wires currently cover all the branch platform.
A bi-mode 319 would also suit Preston-Lancaster-Morecambe (55max on the 2-mile branch, plus 2 miles on the main line).
Presumably they would have to switch modes while stationary.

Would also suit Barrow well. That entire mini-network of former NorthWest Express middle-distance services is absolutely textbook perfect for bi-mode operation.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Maximum line speed on the 10-mile Windermere branch is 60mph.
I don't think the wires currently cover all the branch platform.
A bi-mode 319 would also suit Preston-Lancaster-Morecambe (55max on the 2-mile branch, plus 2 miles on the main line).
Presumably they would have to switch modes while stationary.

Would also suit Barrow well. That entire mini-network of former NorthWest Express middle-distance services is absolutely textbook perfect for bi-mode operation.

Depending on fuel capacity/range, Leeds-Morecambe would be ideal too. Though 4 cars would be overcapacity for all but the summer season. A 3-car version would be handy but 319s aren't the ideal units to shorten due to equipment needing moving from the trailer.

 

[swissrailpassion]

Henley and TV branches, Newbury and Oxford seem strong candidates.

 

[randyrippley]

Depending on fuel capacity/range, Leeds-Morecambe would be ideal too.

Over those hills? I doubt if you could install enough diesel power to do anything but crawl.

 

[mwmbwls]

The speculative bubble has grown apace, At what point can we expect some official announcement.

Following a parliamentary question for one of the Railway Barons in the House of Lords perhaps - for example Bill Bradshaw putting something like this:
" Further to the recent announcements of the curtailment of existing electrification projects and the absence of concrete start dates for other planned electrification schemes, can the government confirm that as a contingency measure that it has approved the examination of concepts to evaluate the feasibility of the installation of "last mile" diesel engines in existing electrical multiple units?"

Alternatively write to /text to your MP and asking that the same question be put.

 

[D6975]

Maximum line speed on the 10-mile Windermere branch is 60mph.
I don't think the wires currently cover all the branch platform.
A bi-mode 319 would also suit Preston-Lancaster-Morecambe (55max on the 2-mile branch, plus 2 miles on the main line).
Presumably they would have to switch modes while stationary.

The last time I went to Windermere the journey time was considerably increased by the need to crawl past level crossings. Is this still the case or has something been done/going to be done to sort them out.

 

[Clarence Yard]

The speculative bubble has grown apace, At what point can we expect some official announcement.

When we know it works. This solution has been touted by Porterbrook for some time and it is known that one TOC has been wanting the DfT to give permission for up to (rumoured) four prototype sets to be financed, for use by that TOC.

Other TOCs/owning groups are obviously aware of what has been proposed and have been seeing where else they could be used. I have a list of such lines for one particular TOC sitting on my desk at work.