Virgin Trains can't serve coffee without bags?

[AndyW33]

Yes, just to confirm, railway buffet cars have been putting your purchases in small paper carrier bags with handles for around 40 years now, so absolutely nothing to do with blame culture, compensation culture or any other culture. If you've ever tried getting from a Mk1 buffet car back to your seat in a Mk1/early Mk2 coach, you'd know the internal doors weren't powered. You always needed one hand to open them, some were so stiff you needed both. And the riding on a pre-upgrade WCML that had seven bells knocked out of the track by unmodified 86s meant that several hands would have been useful to keep yourself steady even if you had the luxury of Mk3 stock and a Mk3 buffet. Even today, when everything at least nominally has powered doors, it doesn't follow that they are all working properly, and the door open buttons aren't at a height which makes them easy to press while carrying a cup of hot liquid in each hand.

 

[sheff1]

One time I was in the carriage next to the buffet car, and was sitting at the end of the carriage such that you only had to walk through the vestibule and you were at the counter. Went to get a coffee, woman serving went to put it in a bag. Said I didn't need one and she said she had to give me a bag. When I indicated where I was sitting she still insisted that I had to use a bag.

I have had this when I have been sitting in the bay of seats right by the counter, not even any vestibule involved. After she put the coffee in the bag, I took it out and had placed in on the table before she even realised that the bag was still sitting on the counter.

I have no problem being offered a bag (on a train or in a shop), but am not impressed when someone tells me I must use a bag, when I have absolutely no need of one.

 

[sheff1]

Yes, just to confirm, railway buffet cars have been putting your purchases in small paper carrier bags with handles for around 40 years now,

Is it really 40 years ?

I well remember trying to get back to my seat with those flimsy plastic cups which really needed you to be wearing welders gauntlets to carry. The coffee was rubbish as well, but no worse than the stuff on sale at the stations back then.

 

[GatwickDepress]

I have had this when I have been sitting in the bay of seats right by the counter, not even any vestibule involved. After she put the coffee in the bag, I took it out and had placed in on the table before she even realised that the bag was still sitting on the counter.

I have no problem being offered a bag (on a train or in a shop), but am not impressed when someone tells me I must use a bag, when I have absolutely no need of one.

That's very petulant of you. If you were literally sitting there, you could have simply given the bag back to her. Staff don't enforce those rules for a giggle.

 

[Bertie the bus]

Yes, just to confirm, railway buffet cars have been putting your purchases in small paper carrier bags with handles for around 40 years now, so absolutely nothing to do with blame culture, compensation culture or any other culture. If you've ever tried getting from a Mk1 buffet car back to your seat in a Mk1/early Mk2 coach, you'd know the internal doors weren't powered. You always needed one hand to open them, some were so stiff you needed both. And the riding on a pre-upgrade WCML that had seven bells knocked out of the track by unmodified 86s meant that several hands would have been useful to keep yourself steady even if you had the luxury of Mk3 stock and a Mk3 buffet. Even today, when everything at least nominally has powered doors, it doesn't follow that they are all working properly, and the door open buttons aren't at a height which makes them easy to press while carrying a cup of hot liquid in each hand.

The problem was, with that nasty Maxpax coffee or whatever it was and cheap plastic cups where the lid didn’t fit very well, if you only had one cup in the bag it would usually fall over when opening the door or steadying yourself and boiling hot brown liquid would dribble out of the bottom. So putting it in a bag was probably more hazardous than carrying the cup.

 

[Colly405]

I had it only the other month, morning rush hour train from BPW to PAd, hoards crowded around the open door on the platform waiting to board, and someone dropped a full cup of coffee just bought from Upper Crust. Lid flew off when it hit the platform, and the coffee went all over the trouser legs of about 4 of us.

 

[al78]

I'm moving on from this because my blood pressure is in danger of exceeding all other risks here - not aimed at anyone in particular; just a perception of ludicrous corporate over-cautiousness designed to accommodate those among us who seem unable to behave sensibly in their environment!

Perhaps this forum should have a warning label. Over exposure to this forum can cause stress related disorders.

I can kind of see the issue regarding bags protecting others from spillages on bumpy sections. I would still question how many passengers per year on average are seriously injured by hot drinks in flight, as it does appear a bit OTT. Myself, I normally get something to eat with the coffee so the bag makes coffee and cake much easier to carry, I would like the option of declining a bag if I didn't feel the need for one. There is enough garbage piling into landfill as it is.

 

[Joe Paxton]

Lyons Coffee Bags are pretty good tbh

Nah, it's just not right!

 

[route:oxford]

It's not rocket science.

When a cup is in held in the hand whilst walking, it's generally held at in a way that the tip of the cup is around nipple height. When a food bag is held whilst walking, it's generally held in a way that the base of the cup is at knee level.

There is a considerable difference in the consequences if vessel containing hot fluid is launched from nipple height to that of one contained in a bag launched from knee height.

The unexpected motion of a vehicle may also result in the involuntary grasp of the cup.

 

[Ediswan]

In the mid 1980s on London-Leicester trains, it could be hard work to get a hot drink back to you seat intact. The timetable was such that some services got a clear run with no scheduled stops, arriving at Leicester well ahead of the public timetable. Nobody complained about the relatively rough ride as they knew it worked to their advantage. Driver got a short tea break as well (observed). No paper bags then.

 

[godfreycomplex]

We could have samovars at the end of every carriage like in the CIS I suppose.
Or; and here's a radical idea; just have water; it's better for you and unlikely to scald anyone you happen to be daft enough to spill it over.
I have spoken.

 

[jopsuk]

I'm moving on from this because my blood pressure is in danger of exceeding all other risks here - not aimed at anyone in particular; just a perception of ludicrous corporate over-cautiousness designed to accommodate those among us who seem unable to behave sensibly in their environment!

You don't seem to accept that it's not about protecting the people carrying the hot drinks. It's about protecting everyone else. Do you take the "level crossings are perfectly safe if you use them properly" line too?

 

[westv]

Of course the answer to the hot drink bag problem is to always travel 1st class.

 

[Chris M]

Of course the answer to the hot drink bag problem is to always travel 1st class.

Or just not drink hot drinks. I really don't understand why people like putting hot liquid in their mouth.

 

[Joe Paxton]

Or just not drink hot drinks. I really don't understand why people like putting hot liquid in their mouth.

OK people of the world... that thing a great many of you do, and your ancestors did for millenia before you... it's got to stop now, because Chris M on a British railway web forum just doesn't understand it!

Et voila, the drink in a bag question is now redundant!

 

[Darandio]

Or just not drink hot drinks. I really don't understand why people like putting hot liquid in their mouth.

Excellent. All you have to do now is convince the couple of billion people per day who consume hot drinks that they are wrong.

 

[infobleep]

Not in Scotland!

So do Virgin charge 5p when in Scotland? If is their a GPS telling them at what point they have crossed boarder or would they start charge from and to Carlisle just to be safe?

 

[Darandio]

So do Virgin charge 5p when in Scotland? If is their a GPS telling them at what point they have crossed boarder or would they start charge from and to Carlisle just to be safe?

East Coast certainly didn't when passing through Dunbar a couple of weeks ago.

 

[infobleep]

There is no requirement to charge for carrier bags (including paper) in Scotland when they are used to carry:



Taken from the Zero Waste Scotland. http://www.zerowastescotland.org.uk/litter-flytipping/carrier-bag-charge-guidance

In England, the following applies:



Taken from https://www.gov.uk/guidance/carrier-bag-charges-retailers-responsibilities

How interesting and answers my question. So there are times when you could be charged for a paper bag in Scotland but wouldn't in the UK and there are times when you'd be charged for a plastic bag in the UK but wouldn't be in Scotland!

 

[221129]

So do Virgin charge 5p when in Scotland? If is their a GPS telling them at what point they have crossed boarder or would they start charge from and to Carlisle just to be safe?

No of course not.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You don't seem to accept that it's not about protecting the people carrying the hot drinks. It's about protecting everyone else. Do you take the "level crossings are perfectly safe if you use them properly" line too?

They are. The problem is people don't. I'm quite happy for them to Darwin themselves, but it's not fair on the train crew and passengers.

 

[Llanigraham]

How interesting and answers my question. So there are times when you could be charged for a paper bag in Scotland but wouldn't in the UK and there are times when you'd be charged for a plastic bag in the UK but wouldn't be in Scotland!

Don't forget that we in Wales also have our own rules too.

And please note that the UK includes Scotland! Perhaps you meant england?

 

[Busaholic]

Sorry, I haven't read through all the replies. Just to say that on the WCML in B.R. days my wife got scalded as a standing passenger by tea being carried by another passenger when the train lurched, such that she still has the marks on her hand, to go with the cat scratch she also got in the 1970s when transporting our beloved moggy from Euston to Preston.

 

[jopsuk]

They are. The problem is people don't. I'm quite happy for them to Darwin themselves, but it's not fair on the train crew and passengers.

Rather my point! We need protection from idiots, and we can't rely on people going "no, it's fine, I can carry a hot drink without spilling it" as the Dunning-Kruger effect kicks in and you've got people injured because someone claimed to have cat like poise and reactions

 

[thenorthern]

With the paper bag exemption I think because Virgin Trains, CrossCountry and TransPennine Express are all companies registered in England and Wales they wouldn't be subject to the same rules as if they were a Scottish company in Scotland.

 

[Llanigraham]

With the paper bag exemption I think because Virgin Trains, CrossCountry and TransPennine Express are all companies registered in England and Wales they wouldn't be subject to the same rules as if they were a Scottish company in Scotland.

It doesn't matter where the company is registered, it is where it is trading at. So an English based business with a shop in Scotland has to abide by Scottish laws about bags. Ditto for Wales.

 

[krus_aragon]

I've often returned the empty bag for reuse.

Likewise: folded up pristinely, good as new.

 

[krus_aragon]

Irrelevant - the process of handing a hot drink across up to three occupied seats while in flight and at the mercy unpredictable clear air turbulence doesn't involve a large risk of spillage?? Good grief, how have we got to this preposterous position of nannying!!

It's a lesser risk than leaning over three seats with a teapot in your hand: hence why you're asked to pass your cup along to the steward.

 

[theironroad]

I'd imagine there is either some exemption for bags used on trains, public transport etc for public safety or it's classed as a bag to protect food which, like those little plastic bags for vegetables in supermarkets and delicatessen products, are exempt.

 

[Signal Head]

Don't forget that we in Wales also have our own rules too.

And please note that the UK includes Scotland!

At the moment it does