Merseyrail - What's the point of Hunts Cross?

[Gathursty]

You could terminate Merseyrail at Liverpool South Parkway and avoid the (upto) 8 crossovers per hour on the mainline before reaching Hunts Cross.

Hunts Cross is served in line with other Northern Rail stations and isn't faraway from Liverpool SP by foot or by bus.

I just don't see the point of all the crossovers to terminate at Hunts Cross.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There's a lot less point of it now LPY exists. Prior to LPY the point of it was mainline interchange, primarily, I think.

 

[The Planner]

How would you work it at South Parkway? The crossover is more than ½ mile back towards Cressington.

 

[M28361M]

How would you work it at South Parkway? The crossover is more than ½ mile back towards Cressington.

It might require a tweak to the timetable but it's perfectly doable - indeed for three weeks during the upcoming Lime Street closure all ME trains will reverse at South Parkway using this crossover.

While Hunts Cross has lost its interchange role there are still lots of locals using it. I suspect it would be considered unacceptable to permanently remove the 4 trains per hour to Liverpool Central when the Northern service to Lime Street, at best, is only 2tph.

How feasible would it be to remodel the junction so that Merseyrail trains don't interfere with other services?

 

[185]

My opinion. But, if Merseytravel the PTE was more forward thinking, the question would be... what could we do with this stub line?

i) extend to Gateacre
ii) extend via a dive-under to Liverpool Airport via Speke
iii) divert all DMUs and make Warrington C- Liverpool 3rd Rail Merseyrail

Sadly the massive growth next door flew past Merseyrail due to the squabbling and obsession with Merseytram.

 

[HSTEd]

More useful to electrify to Warrington, using whatever system is cheaper, cut back the northern locals and run Merseyrail only on that section.
West Allerton and Mossley Hill services can be picked up by the Crewe-Liverpool London Midland Service.

 

[Chester1]

This topic comes up occasionally and people argue in favour of a third rail extension despite ORR having a strong policy against authorising third rail extensions. The best realistic option is AC electrification between Liverpool South Parkway and Trafford Park and running 4tph between Lime Street and Warrington Central with 2tph continuing to Oxford Road. That would ease pressure on Liverpool Central and increase recovery time while still providing a good service for Hunts Cross and improving journey times from most stations. I doubt any electrification of the line will be funded for the foreseeable future.

 

[HSTEd]

This topic comes up occasionally and people argue in favour of a third rail extension despite ORR having a strong policy against authorising third rail extensions.

The wind on this is changing now however - even Network Rail now admits that third rail is cheaper in some cases than 25kV (and on a route much longer than this, see the Kent Route Study Draft technical appendix).

ORR will actually be forced to defend its position, and it is my opinion that data provided by ORR themselves (which I have discussed before) makes the position indefensible.

The best realistic option is AC electrification between Liverpool South Parkway and Trafford Park and running 4tph between Lime Street and Warrington Central with 2tph continuing to Oxford Road. That would ease pressure on Liverpool Central and increase recovery time while still providing a good service for Hunts Cross and improving journey times from most stations. I doubt any electrification of the line will be funded for the foreseeable future.

With the current disaster that is the 25kV electrification programme - this is hardly realistic.
I doubt you would get much change from £500m for electrification of the entire route at 25kV.

And forcing an additional change for people who want to follow well developed travel patterns using the current Merseyrail service would be extremely unpopular, especially given the time saving is marginal at best.

 

[jamesst]

You could terminate Merseyrail at Liverpool South Parkway and avoid the (upto) 8 crossovers per hour on the mainline before reaching Hunts Cross.

Hunts Cross is served in line with other Northern Rail stations and isn't faraway from Liverpool SP by foot or by bus.

I just don't see the point of all the crossovers to terminate at Hunts Cross.

To be fair there's been rumours of just that happening for a while now, let's wait and see what happens once Lime Street is finished and the new Northern timetable in place

 

[twpsaesneg]

The wind on this is changing now however - even Network Rail now admits that third rail is cheaper in some cases than 25kV (and on a route much longer than this, see the Kent Route Study Draft technical appendix).

ORR will actually be forced to defend its position, and it is my opinion that data provided by ORR themselves (which I have discussed before) makes the position indefensible.


With the current disaster that is the 25kV electrification programme - this is hardly realistic.
I doubt you would get much change from £500m for electrification of the entire route at 25kV.

And forcing an additional change for people who want to follow well developed travel patterns using the current Merseyrail service would be extremely unpopular, especially given the time saving is marginal at best.

I'd be interested to know what figures NR are basing DCCR electrification on - East London Line is the only recentish scheme I can think of, and that wasn't exactly typical.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This topic comes up occasionally and people argue in favour of a third rail extension despite ORR having a strong policy against authorising third rail extensions. The best realistic option is AC electrification between Liverpool South Parkway and Trafford Park and running 4tph between Lime Street and Warrington Central with 2tph continuing to Oxford Road. That would ease pressure on Liverpool Central and increase recovery time while still providing a good service for Hunts Cross and improving journey times from most stations. I doubt any electrification of the line will be funded for the foreseeable future.

The large number of local stations on the CLC compared with other routes in the area would make electrification, ideally 25kV, of particularly strong benefit.

 

[185]

And forcing an additional change for people who want to follow well developed travel patterns using the current Merseyrail service would be extremely unpopular, especially given the time saving is marginal at best.

Capacity and service frequency on the current DMU route are not great. The running time from many stations on the CLC has noticeably slowed in recent years.

I think that if a well planned, simple interchange at W Cen is introduced - publicised correctly, I don't see an issue with (eventually) having two, 15min clock face faster electric services. The split service would protect reliability on both local services - thus a) 3rd rail Liv-W Cen and b) 25kv W Cen-Manchester. Capacity would be increased on an already full route.

A new split, island platform would be created extended over a part of the car park, Kirkby style with buffer stops separating the 4car Northern / 3car Merseyrail train lengths - easy level access walking transfer between sets. A third, through platform would remain for occasional bidirectional use, stock moves or diversionary running.

Both PTE's should be funding the electrification projects as each primarily benefits local train services their areas, and the service growth would easily repay the investment.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I can also see the argument for that, which would be almost as good. The ICs can go via the other route, with Bank Quay being the station for those if you want them. I'd expect, though, people would still use Merseyrail/Northern's frequent services because of the frequency rather than speed if going to Liverpool or Manchester from Warrington.

It does create an issue for Edge Hill, Mossley Hill and West Allerton. Any scope to add a bay at South Parkway (or is it quiet enough) to simply have a Lime St-South Parkway EMU (dual voltage) local service, perhaps half hourly? Or you could even turn it round in the Hunts Cross bay, swapping Merseyrail to the main platforms?

Either way there would be a massive benefit to electrification on the CLC because of the high number of stations.

 

[Kite159]

I can also see the argument for that, which would be almost as good. The ICs can go via the other route, with Bank Quay being the station for those if you want them. I'd expect, though, people would still use Merseyrail/Northern's frequent services because of the frequency rather than speed if going to Liverpool or Manchester from Warrington.

It does create an issue for Edge Hill, Mossley Hill and West Allerton. Any scope to add a bay at South Parkway (or is it quiet enough) to simply have a Lime St-South Parkway EMU (dual voltage) local service, perhaps half hourly? Or you could even turn it round in the Hunts Cross bay, swapping Merseyrail to the main platforms?

Either way there would be a massive benefit to electrification on the CLC because of the high number of stations.

You could probably get away with using the slow-line platforms at South Parkway to terminate the new local services [similar to the current South Parkway - Lime Street - Preston 319s]

The CLC line is like a diesel island, high accelerating EMUs would make sense to give a more robust timetable

 

[ivanhoe]

You could terminate Merseyrail at Liverpool South Parkway and avoid the (upto) 8 crossovers per hour on the mainline before reaching Hunts Cross.

Hunts Cross is served in line with other Northern Rail stations and isn't faraway from Liverpool SP by foot or by bus.

I just don't see the point of all the crossovers to terminate at Hunts Cross.

I can assure you it's more than a short walk between the two stations. Like about 40 minutes walking time. The bus routes are about half hourly as well.

 

[rebmcr]

With the current disaster that is the 25kV electrification programme - this is hardly realistic.
I doubt you would get much change from £500m for electrification of the entire route at 25kV.

All I ever see you post is political messages oh behalf of the Third Rail Party!

Manchester-Liverpool 25kV electrification went very well indeed. Eternally using the GWML setbacks to generalise all OHLE installations is getting very tired at this point.

 

[HSTEd]

All I ever see you post is political messages oh behalf of the Third Rail Party!

Manchester-Liverpool 25kV electrification went very well indeed. Eternally using the GWML setbacks to generalise all OHLE installations is getting very tired at this point.

It still cost drastically more than 25kV was supposed to, as did the Chase line works, the case for 25kV being cheap was dead long before the GWML went pear-shaped.

West Allerton and Mossley hill could be served by London midland.

 

[MarkyT]

An extra crossover or two could be installed around LPY for revering.

Another option would be to reconfigure lines and junctions between LPY and Hunts Cross so the Merseyrail trains run and terminate on the south side of the station, not conflicting with Liverpool - Warrington Central trains at all.

Yet another much more ambitious but holistic scheme would be for Merseyrail trains to take a sharp right just east of LPY and ramp up to join the near pair from Edge Hill, then share the that pair of AC electrified tracks towards Widnes with freights, stopping at reopened Speke and Ditton stations en route. Other stations on the line continuing on through Widnes South and Sankey Bridges to Warrington could also be reopened and the line electrified:

1. For the Merseyrail trains
2. For electrified freight trains to the various south Liverpool freight facilities, enabled by the oft suggested west-south chord at Warrington. The line via Runcorn would thus lose most freight, except for some local trips to and from the various sidings in the immediate Runcorn area, and would in future become almost exclusively dedicated to longer distance passenger expresses, including HS2 Liverpool services and new Halton chord trains to Chester and N Wales, which would be operated by fast units sharing the same limited stop pattern as the HS/IC services from Lime Street to the divergence.

In Warrington there would be low level platforms near Bank Quay and the line could extend a little further east to terminate in the suburbs at Latchford or even extend over the ship canal to near Thelwall for a parkway if the viaduct is in good enough condition to use economically.

Between LPY and Edge Hill I suggest the Runcorn services swap over just south of LPY onto the western pair of the 4 track alignment while the Warrington Central group stays on the east side, removing junction conflicts and allowing the HS/Halton fast pair to be independent all the way into Lime Street (with some reconfiguration at Edge Hill clearly).

In addition to the Merseyrail extension, this idea aims to remove as much freight as possible from the route proposed for HS2 trains to reach Liverpool from Crewe. Clearly they can't be segregated entirely due to the double track section south of Weaver Junction, although there may be options for widening once south of Dutton Viaduct, or electrifiying and diverting the freight via Northwich and Middlewich.

 

[frodshamfella]

You could terminate Merseyrail at Liverpool South Parkway and avoid the (upto) 8 crossovers per hour on the mainline before reaching Hunts Cross.

Hunts Cross is served in line with other Northern Rail stations and isn't faraway from Liverpool SP by foot or by bus.

I just don't see the point of all the crossovers to terminate at Hunts Cross.

It's quite a walk actually from Hunts Cross to South parkway

 

[frodshamfella]

My opinion. But, if Merseytravel the PTE was more forward thinking, the question would be... what could we do with this stub line?

i) extend to Gateacre
ii) extend via a dive-under to Liverpool Airport via Speke
iii) divert all DMUs and make Warrington C- Liverpool 3rd Rail Merseyrail

Sadly the massive growth next door flew past Merseyrail due to the squabbling and obsession with Merseytram.

I agree the future plan should be an extension to Liverpool Airport ..plus a station to serve Speke

 

[Gareth]

Some interesting ideas here. For my tuppence worth...

I would rearrange Hunts Cross as MarkyT has suggested. Platform 3 (the current Merseyrail platform) and a reinstated Platform 4 would be used exclusively by trains going to and from Lime Street via Allerton Junction. Merseyrail would use the southern two platforms (1&2). This would remove any conflicts between the two services through the station. Then, any increase in Merseyrail frequency could include terminating at Hunts Cross, rather than needing to turn back some services at South Parkway.

Extending Merseyrail towards Warrington Central was part of the initial plan. There would then be no stopping trains working through one side of Warrington to the other. I think longer distance services were still envisioned to operate and so the line between Hunts Cross & Warrington Central was never going to be purely Merseyrail.

I still support the basic concept but I think the Merseyrail service would be better terminating at Birchwood. I would expand Birchwood station so it had a new track to the south of the existing complex. The southerly platform would then become an island platform. Merseyrail trains would turn back in the middle plaform, with through trains using the top and bottom. This would allow terminating Merseyrail trains to sit in the middle without blocking through services.

As for the stopping services from Manchester, it may be worth these carrying on to Lime Street as present but west of Birchwood skipping all bar Warrington Central, Warrington West, Widnes & South Parkway on the CLC and then picking up West Allerton, Mossley Hill & Edge Hill. Sankey could be retained with regular Merseyrail services rather than the slated infrequent service it's slated to get after Warrington West opens.

You could four track from Hunts Cross eastwards at least a mile or so. I believe this section was originally four track and the bridge over Mackets Lane appears to be wide enough to allow it. It would reduce to two track somewhere west of Halewood Station, probably just east of Halewood Academy, where the suburban housing estates begin.

Frequency-wise, the minimal could be 2tph Merseyrail (the other 2tph turning back at Hunts Cross) and then 2tph Northern, with the Northern Connect (Manchester Airport) services and the EMT. 3tph Merseyrail would be ideal (with 6tph between Liverpool City & Hunts Cross).

As for electrification, I feel third rail only makes sense if the line becomes part of the isolated network with no mixed services. As that's unlikely, I feel OHLE should be used with Merseyrail trains switching at Hunts Cross. I couldn't imagine wiring just to Birchwood with only Merseyrail services being electric (in which case, you may as well use third rail). It would either all be wired or not at all, I feel. If wired all the way, then all bar the EMT service would be electric. The CLC line could then also be used as a diversion route for electric services on the Chat Moss route.

 

[HSTEd]

I'm not entirely sure why you would continue to run any express services via Warrington Central in the long run.
Surely it would be best to concentrate all the express trains on the one route, allowing for a properly optimised timetable rather than scattering express trains all over the place?
After all express trains operate to both Liverpool and Manchester from Warrington Bank Quay, and the longer journey in the liverpool direction would be partially offset by the superior connectivity offered by Merseyrail.

 

[Gareth]

I agree the future plan should be an extension to Liverpool Airport ..plus a station to serve Speke

I friend of mine favours this as a way to serve the airport. It would involve a tunnel under Woodend Avenue & Western Avenue with an intermediate station, probably located near Speke Boulevard. I think this alignment would miss out Hunts Cross though. Of course, you could have services split between both the airport and Hunts Cross (possibly extended to Warrington) but you'd have to be able to justify a high frequency south of Liverpool Central (possibly all Southport, Ormskirk & Kirkby services) to make it worthwhile; especially to justify the tunnel infrastructure.

 

[Gareth]

I'm not entirely sure why you would continue to run any express services via Warrington Central in the long run.
Surely it would be best to concentrate all the express trains on the one route, allowing for a properly optimised timetable rather than scattering express trains all over the place?
After all express trains operate to both Liverpool and Manchester from Warrington Bank Quay, and the longer journey in the liverpool direction would be partially offset by the superior connectivity offered by Merseyrail.

You could reroute the EMT service to the Chat Moss, assuming capacity and demand allows it. Same with the (what will be) Manchester Airport service. But then you'd have to compensate Warrington with at least another fast service to each Manchester & Liverpool via Bank Quay, plus some sort of link to Manchester Airport. Going via Newton-le-Willows is a bit of a dogleg. The smaller stations either side of Warrington Central would then have a harder time accessing long distance services. They'd probably have to head to Manchester for most of them (rather than get off at Warrington Central and walk to Bank Quay); not too bad for the stations to the east of the split but not good for the likes of Warrington West or Widnes who would have to change at Warrington Central. I feel it would be politically impossible too. Warrington would complain that you couldn't go directly from the stations from the east of the town to the ones in the west (which is partly why I arrived at the Birchwood idea). The line would operate in a much simpler metro-style way on both sides but I'm not sure the benefits of this outweigh the drawbacks.

 

[urbophile]

I can also see the argument for that, which would be almost as good. The ICs can go via the other route, with Bank Quay being the station for those if you want them. I'd expect, though, people would still use Merseyrail/Northern's frequent services because of the frequency rather than speed if going to Liverpool or Manchester from Warrington.

It does create an issue for Edge Hill, Mossley Hill and West Allerton. Any scope to add a bay at South Parkway (or is it quiet enough) to simply have a Lime St-South Parkway EMU (dual voltage) local service, perhaps half hourly? Or you could even turn it round in the Hunts Cross bay, swapping Merseyrail to the main platforms?

Either way there would be a massive benefit to electrification on the CLC because of the high number of stations.

Lime Street to S Parkway is already electrified 25kV. It should be run as a metro style service with at least 4tph and a new (re-opened) station at Smithdown Road. If Merseyrail were to run it they would just need to take over some trains from Northern. However it would be much more useful if the Wapping tunnel were re-opened (as has been proposed many times) and connected to the Northern line via the already constructed link tunnels just south of Central. Dual voltage trains could then run through from Ormskirk or Kirkby to Warrington, which would provide a better service for CLC passengers travelling to the business district around Moorfields, and ease congestion at Central by not having to reverse.

I think Warrington passengers would be rightly miffed if they were deprived of at least a semi-fast service to destinations beyond Manchester. And which way would people suggest sending the Liverpool- Sheffield etc trains if the CLC ceased to be a through line?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think Warrington passengers would be rightly miffed if they were deprived of at least a semi-fast service to destinations beyond Manchester.

They wouldn't be deprived of anything - Bank Quay would simply become the InterCity/express station, Central for local journeys. Which is how it was years ago, wasn't it?

And which way would people suggest sending the Liverpool- Sheffield etc trains if the CLC ceased to be a through line?

Chat Moss. If necessary do some portion working.

 

[Gareth]

The Sheffield trains would simply use the Chat Moss route via Piccadilly, presumably.

 

[HSTEd]

You could reroute the EMT service to the Chat Moss, assuming capacity and demand allows it. Same with the (what will be) Manchester Airport service. But then you'd have to compensate Warrington with at least another fast service to each Manchester & Liverpool via Bank Quay, plus some sort of link to Manchester Airport. Going via Newton-le-Willows is a bit of a dogleg. The smaller stations either side of Warrington Central would then have a harder time accessing long distance services. They'd probably have to head to Manchester for most of them (rather than get off at Warrington Central and walk to Bank Quay); not too bad for the stations to the east of the split but not good for the likes of Warrington West or Widnes who would have to change at Warrington Central.

There are various ways this could be mitigated - are Warrington Central and Warrington Bank Quay currently grouped for ticketing services?
A free transfer bus could be provided if necessary - its a bit annoying the stations are so far apart considering the lines cross each other.

I feel it would be politically impossible too. Warrington would complain that you couldn't go directly from the stations from the east of the town to the ones in the west (which is partly why I arrived at the Birchwood idea). The line would operate in a much simpler metro-style way on both sides but I'm not sure the benefits of this outweigh the drawbacks.

I am not sure that would necessarily be a dealbreaker - if we look at the number of passengers using the Merseyrail stations and the Northern-only ones it is clear that Merseyrail is more heavily trafficked.

After all it is likely that Warrington Central would get all four of the Hunt's Cross trains - 4tph will (partially) draw the sting of having to change and the lack of a semi fast service I would think.

 

[158756]

I feel it would be politically impossible too. Warrington would complain that you couldn't go directly from the stations from the east of the town to the ones in the west (which is partly why I arrived at the Birchwood idea). The line would operate in a much simpler metro-style way on both sides but I'm not sure the benefits of this outweigh the drawbacks.

I think Warrington is key to any changes to the CLC line. It's 4 stations have more passengers than the rest of the non-Merseyrail stations put together. It's main station gets 4 tph to Liverpool and Manchester from the current arrangement, which is all it'd probably get with a split service, but with semi fasts and direct trains across the Pennines. They'll also be keen on retaining links from Birchwood and Padgate to Liverpool and Warrington West to Manchester.

Warrington hasn't thrown its lot in with Liverpool or Manchester in the devolution deals, preferring a Cheshire grouping it will presumably have a big influence in. I doubt they'll be keen on anything perceived not to benefit Warrington.


I'd also question the value of more stops at the small Greater Manchester stations, and also how Mossley Hill and West Allerton would be served - LM won't want them and neither should Liverpool want its already slow service to Birmingham slowed further. Halton Curve maybe?

 

[HSTEd]

I think Warrington is key to any changes to the CLC line. It's 4 stations have more passengers than the rest of the non-Merseyrail stations put together. It's main station gets 4 tph to Liverpool and Manchester from the current arrangement, which is all it'd probably get with a split service, but with semi fasts and direct trains across the Pennines. They'll also be keen on retaining links from Birchwood and Padgate to Liverpool and Warrington West to Manchester.

But Birchwood and Padgate are (relatively) minor stations, and whilst they would have to change at Warrington Central there would be many more trains for them to use. At least two trains per hour at Padgate instead of one now - which then has an always short change onto one of the four trains to Liverpool.
Additionally anyone driving to Birchwood would simply drive to Newton Le Willows, Patricroft or a similar station on the Northern route for fast trains to Liverpool.

How many people do not drive to Birchwood and want to travel to Liverpool - and would find a simple walk-along-the-platform change at Warrington Central too taxing for them?

I'd also question the value of more stops at the small Greater Manchester stations, and also how Mossley Hill and West Allerton would be served - LM won't want them and neither should Liverpool want its already slow service to Birmingham slowed further. Halton Curve maybe?

Leaving aside that the service to Birmingham will be taken over by HS2 in relatively short order anyway - remember that by withdrawing the Lime Street-Manchester via Warrington services we gain access to two paths out of Lime Street, we could spare one to create a seperate all-shacks and fast Crewe-Liverpool service.