Is rail REALLY that bad in the North?

[47802]

In my experience, the answer to the question is no.

The two main gripes seem to be overcrowding and old trains. Whilst I don't dispute there are places in the north where it's possible to experience heavy peak overcrowding, with exceptions I still don't think it's as bad as in the London area. Yes the 17XX out of a major city may be filled to bursting point for the first couple of stops, or maybe a little further on somewhere like the Bolton corridor, but I'd still say people are standing for much shorter distances than in the London area. "Rush hour" in the north is still roughly 1700-1800, whereas in the south east we're now talking about 1530-1930, with many trains still crowded either side of that. Same in the morning, where in the London area it's now quite easy to find full trains as early as 0600.

What I'd say is worse in the north is off-peak overcrowding, especially that associated with events. This is less of an issue in the London area as there is more stock available from the peaks to provide longer off-peak trains across the board, plus the generally longer lengths can absorb fluctuations in demand that little bit better. It's still possible to find heavily overcrowded off-peak trains in the London area at times though.

As for the age of rolling stock, I confess to getting a little tired of hearing about this. My local line in the London area still has trains dating from the mid 1970s, and until recently all the rolling stock dated from BR days. As long as stock is reliable and well maintained I really don't see the issue. I do agree however that some of Northern's rolling stock could and should be presented better.

On balance, given the constraints of financial viability, I feel the north's rail service isn't bad at all. Not perfect by any means, but not nearly as bad as some make out.

Yes there are a few ancient trains on routes around London but the point is they are not Railbuses where you may have to spend a 2 hour journey on them, and most are down for replacement in the next few years.

 

[47802]

It doesn't necessarily, though. People have this impression of every train full and standing on London commuter services, and this just isn't true. I have a near 100% record of a seat when commuting. You just have to avoid the odd overcrowded train.

What's significant about the North's crowding problem is that (on TPE at least) it seems to exist at most times of day.

TPE will get significant extra capacity but I do think some of TPE's capacity problems are manufactured by their cheap ticket sales, a quick look at the website and I can book a cheap advance single from Leeds to Manchester next week even on morning peak trains into Manchester.

 

[Bletchleyite]

TPE will get significant extra capacity but I do think some of TPE's capacity problems are manufactured by their cheap ticket sales, a quick look at the website and I can book a cheap advance single from Leeds to Manchester next week even on morning peak trains into Manchester.

It is probably no coincidence that the place on LM where there is a consistent all-day overcrowding problem (the Crewe services) is also the place where price-dumped Advances and walk-ups are sold.

 

[Moonshot]

Sorry I must have missed something there, what exactly does it sum up? That London has bigger problems than the North? Well indeed it does, but this isn't a North vs South/London debate.

If you mean that the North's service isn't as bad as it is made out, then for parts of the network I would strongly disagree. Things have got better, and will become more so but this doesn't mean the problems will go away. What it will probably mean is that more people will take up the extra capacity as it comes on line (this has certainly been the case with the recent cascades & additional services Northern / TPE have provided), and that the problems of 2017 will still remain in 2020. There are many contributions from many posters on this thread that detail the issues and why investment cannot simply stop because some don't think things are as bad as they are.

Well as I actually work for Northern and I am out and about every day, I think I m better placed than most. I never said investment has to stop ....there is a rolling programme of upgrades etc....which is in all honesty business as usual. On an average shift I work 6 services, only 1 of which will be full and standing for a short time. The rest are easy to work as I can walk through without an issue. An example of this occured earlier this week on a Blackburn to MCV via Todmorden service early afternoon....a 2 car 142 which left on time, picked up passengers on the way and arrived on time. Some 40% of seats empty at destination. And that is pretty much normal for me , it happens day in day out.

 

[Moonshot]

It doesn't necessarily, though. People have this impression of every train full and standing on London commuter services, and this just isn't true. I have a near 100% record of a seat when commuting. You just have to avoid the odd overcrowded train.

What's significant about the North's crowding problem is that (on TPE at least) it seems to exist at most times of day.

I certainly dont have that impression of every train on London commuter services full and standing.....but as with all areas of transport in the UK , there are 2 significant peaks in a working day

TPE is a victim of its own success - demand has probably exceeded expectations. But hey ho isnt hindsight wonderful - 30 years ago nobody was forecasting the 2017 UK network carrying the highest amount of passengers ever recorded.

 

[northwichcat]

Well as I actually work for Northern and I am out and about every day, I think I m better placed than most. I never said investment has to stop ....there is a rolling programme of upgrades etc....which is in all honesty business as usual. On an average shift I work 6 services, only 1 of which will be full and standing for a short time. The rest are easy to work as I can walk through without an issue. An example of this occured earlier this week on a Blackburn to MCV via Todmorden service early afternoon....a 2 car 142 which left on time, picked up passengers on the way and arrived on time. Some 40% of seats empty at destination. And that is pretty much normal for me , it happens day in day out.

The Blackburn to Victoria via Todmorden is not a typical Northern service. There are express bus services between Burnley and Manchester using modern high quality vehicles. Northern need to offer a higher quality service to be able to properly compete with the bus services.

It's also worth remembering Northern's 150s and most 142s have 3+2 seating, so have around 20% more seating than their equivalents in the ATW fleet and most of their equivalents in the GWR fleet, so if an ATW/GWR unit was used instead of around 45 empty seats, there would only be around 15.

It sounds like you have an easy job compared to the guards who get 15:17 Man-Chester and 16:59 Chester-Man and 16:17 Man-Chester and 18:04 Chester-Man who have 3 hours of working services which get standing passengers in both directions!

 

[Bletchleyite]

TPE is a victim of its own success - demand has probably exceeded expectations. But hey ho isnt hindsight wonderful - 30 years ago nobody was forecasting the 2017 UK network carrying the highest amount of passengers ever recorded.

Indeed, though the TPE franchise that ordered the 185s wasn't let on decline, and anybody could have noticed that a 3-car 185 has a substantially lower capacity than a 3-car 158, and realised there would be a problem. Government cost-cutting meant the units couldn't be 4-car with an option to extend to 5. If that hadn't happened, there wouldn't have been a problem (4 car would have been OK to start with, and like the Pendolinos the option would have been taken up to extend).

 

[northwichcat]

Indeed, though the TPE franchise that ordered the 185s wasn't let on decline, and anybody could have noticed that a 3-car 185 has a substantially lower capacity than a 3-car 158, and realised there would be a problem. Government cost-cutting meant the units couldn't be 4-car with an option to extend to 5. If that hadn't happened, there wouldn't have been a problem (4 car would have been OK to start with, and like the Pendolinos the option would have been taken up to extend).

Indeed. A similar issue exists for the LM 172s. Why order new trains to replace non-life expired stock if you're not going increase capacity?

I also recall there being a claim of 'only 5 less standard class seats' when 185s replaced Voyagers on Manchester-Scotland services. No mention of the cut in First Class seating as well, or the fact that up to 5 passengers per service would be much happier getting a seat than standing!

 

[Bantamzen]

Well as I actually work for Northern and I am out and about every day, I think I m better placed than most. I never said investment has to stop ....there is a rolling programme of upgrades etc....which is in all honesty business as usual. On an average shift I work 6 services, only 1 of which will be full and standing for a short time. The rest are easy to work as I can walk through without an issue. An example of this occured earlier this week on a Blackburn to MCV via Todmorden service early afternoon....a 2 car 142 which left on time, picked up passengers on the way and arrived on time. Some 40% of seats empty at destination. And that is pretty much normal for me , it happens day in day out.

I don't doubt that there are plenty of unoccupied seats at certain times, as there is right across the network. But on the flip side as a commuter I travel mainly on trains at close to or in excess of seating capacity, and quite often conformably so. And as a semi-regular user of the North TP I rarely see a service that isn't mostly fully occupied, and even in the off-peaks they can be full to rammed at least between Manchester-Leeds-York, sometimes even back to Warrington & Liverpool. And then there is the not-exclusive-to-the-North Cross Country daily scrum heading from Leeds to the Midlands and back.... <shudder>

Its partly about getting the balance right, making sure that the peaks are suitably supplied wherever possible and not over-providing at quieter times. However just because off-peaks are quieter, doesn't mean that there is no demand out there. With the new and refurbished stock coming on-line Northern have the chance to at least some of that 40%, which will increase revenue flow and help further reduce subsidies. Add in the better connectivity that has been discussed, as well as other infrastructural improvements like platform lengthening, track works to increase speeds, and dare I mention the wires and the Northern / TPE franchises so that TOCs can offer better transit times and punctuality and who knows, perhaps more people can be tempted off the roads on more permanently onto the trains?

 

[Moonshot]

The Blackburn to Victoria via Todmorden is not a typical Northern service. There are express bus services between Burnley and Manchester using modern high quality vehicles. Northern need to offer a higher quality service to be able to properly compete with the bus services.

It's also worth remembering Northern's 150s and most 142s have 3+2 seating, so have around 20% more seating than their equivalents in the ATW fleet and most of their equivalents in the GWR fleet, so if an ATW/GWR unit was used instead of around 45 empty seats, there would only be around 15.

It sounds like you have an easy job compared to the guards who get 15:17 Man-Chester and 16:59 Chester-Man and 16:17 Man-Chester and 18:04 Chester-Man who have 3 hours of working services which get standing passengers in both directions!

Not a typical service ?? Pardon me if I m wrong but isnt that journey just replicated all over the north in that a train painted in Northern colours departs from station A with a driver and guard and passengers and arrives at station B with a driver and guard and passengers. Northerns services ( in common with all others ) do exactly what they say on the tin.

 

[Moonshot]

I don't doubt that there are plenty of unoccupied seats at certain times, as there is right across the network. But on the flip side as a commuter I travel mainly on trains at close to or in excess of seating capacity, and quite often conformably so. And as a semi-regular user of the North TP I rarely see a service that isn't mostly fully occupied, and even in the off-peaks they can be full to rammed at least between Manchester-Leeds-York, sometimes even back to Warrington & Liverpool. And then there is the not-exclusive-to-the-North Cross Country daily scrum heading from Leeds to the Midlands and back.... <shudder>

Its partly about getting the balance right, making sure that the peaks are suitably supplied wherever possible and not over-providing at quieter times. However just because off-peaks are quieter, doesn't mean that there is no demand out there. With the new and refurbished stock coming on-line Northern have the chance to at least some of that 40%, which will increase revenue flow and help further reduce subsidies. Add in the better connectivity that has been discussed, as well as other infrastructural improvements like platform lengthening, track works to increase speeds, and dare I mention the wires and the Northern / TPE franchises so that TOCs can offer better transit times and punctuality and who knows, perhaps more people can be tempted off the roads on more permanently onto the trains?

Indeed.....and add in the fact that we have a "walk on railway " But in any event regardless of what has or has not been happening to both the rolling stock and infrastructure over the last 15 years or so, the numbers of passengers have risen significantly and are still doing so.

 

[northwichcat]

Not a typical service ?? Pardon me if I m wrong but isnt that journey just replicated all over the north in that a train painted in Northern colours departs from station A with a driver and guard and passengers and arrives at station B with a driver and guard and passengers. Northerns services ( in common with all others ) do exactly what they say on the tin.

That rail service has only been running a couple of years, the bus has been running much longer. For most Northern routes the trains have been running for over 100 years - since before buses even existed, never mind before all the buses with high back leather seats, wifi and charging points started being introduced. Any completely new service takes time for passenger numbers to build up - look at the virtually empty Metrolink services running to and from Manchester Airport, while the Metrolink line out to Salford Quays didn't get that many passengers for it's first 15 years of operation but now trams out to Salford Quays can be very busy.

 

[Moonshot]

That rail service has only been running a couple of years, the bus has been running much longer. For most Northern routes the trains have been running for over 100 years - since before buses even existed, never mind before all the buses with high back leather seats, wifi and charging points started being introduced. Any completely new service takes time for passenger numbers to build up - look at the virtually empty Metrolink services running to and from Manchester Airport, while the Metrolink line out to Salford Quays didn't get that many passengers for it's first 15 years of operation but now trams out to Salford Quays can be very busy.

Figures for the likes of Accrington Rose Grove and Burnley show an definite increase in the last couple of years ... thats a fact.

Northern carry something like 250000 passengers a day on 2500 services - if demand was even through the day, that would equate to a single class 142 pacer on each service being full but with no standing passengers ....thats a fact.

Metrolink has expanded over the years and is very busy ....thats a fact.

 

[northwichcat]

Northern carry something like 250000 passengers a day on 2500 services - if demand was even through the day, that would equate to a single class 142 pacer on each service being full but with no standing passengers ....thats a fact.

Not really. You're providing estimates by memory and I'm not convinced you're even quoting figures for the current franchise (opposed to the old one which didn't have the exact same franchise map.)

A 2012 report by ORR said seat occupancy level on Northern was half what is on TPE but was similar to seat occupancy levels on Southeastern, London Midland, NXEA and ATW. However, those figures are obviously now outdated.

Metrolink has expanded over the years and is very busy ....thats a fact.

But like Northern there are services running with plenty of empty seats alongside ones where people are complaining about them being too crowded. The ex-heavy rail routes have had good loadings from day 1, the proper new routes have always started with low loadings, which in the case of Salford Quays has built up significantly over time and in the case of Manchester Airport is yet to happen. You seem to be objecting to the idea that the Blackburn to Victoria via Burnley service is not yet carrying as many passengers as it could when it's the only new rail route operated by Northern.

 

[Northhighland]

As an infrequent user of TPE I would agree with the overcrowding issue. I also have great sympathy for the comparisons between London and the North of England, however what is lacking from an outsiders viewpoint is a body that lobbies for the North in the same way as the Mayor and London assembly does. That puts the North at an immediate disadvantage.

Longer trains would improve the situation greatly. Surely that cant be that difficult to do.

 

[bramling]

As an infrequent user of TPE I would agree with the overcrowding issue. I also have great sympathy for the comparisons between London and the North of England, however what is lacking from an outsiders viewpoint is a body that lobbies for the North in the same way as the Mayor and London assembly does. That puts the North at an immediate disadvantage.

Longer trains would improve the situation greatly. Surely that cant be that difficult to do.

Don't agree with the bit about the mayor. TfL's influence ends at the edge of London. The south east commuter area extends way beyond that.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Don't agree with the bit about the mayor. TfL's influence ends at the edge of London. The south east commuter area extends way beyond that.

And the urban areas have the PTEs and equivalents.

 

[Moonshot]

Not really. You're providing estimates by memory and I'm not convinced you're even quoting figures for the current franchise (opposed to the old one which didn't have the exact same franchise map.)

A 2012 report by ORR said seat occupancy level on Northern was half what is on TPE but was similar to seat occupancy levels on Southeastern, London Midland, NXEA and ATW. However, those figures are obviously now outdated.



But like Northern there are services running with plenty of empty seats alongside ones where people are complaining about them being too crowded. The ex-heavy rail routes have had good loadings from day 1, the proper new routes have always started with low loadings, which in the case of Salford Quays has built up significantly over time and in the case of Manchester Airport is yet to happen. You seem to be objecting to the idea that the Blackburn to Victoria via Burnley service is not yet carrying as many passengers as it could when it's the only new rail route operated by Northern.

I m not objecting to anything .....I m simply pointing out the reality of the Northern Network ( which is the topic of this thread ) today. Clearly there is a lot more to do for the likes of Accrington and Burnley etc to make it more attractive to those who travel by car. In case you are not aware , the line speed between Burnley and Todmorden is mainly40/45 mph.....but as it stands now, thats actually the max speed that units reach in full power up Copy Pit anyway. To shorten the journey by say 15 mins for those passengers would make it a more attractive option for car users.

 

[Moonshot]

Further to my post a bit earlier I was just at the ORR data for Northern.......and for 2016 it works out at 111 passengers per service .....still pretty much the equivalent of a 2 car pacer . A more striking piece of data however was the rate of complaints per 100000 passengers. This has fallen dramatically from 31 to 16.

 

[northwichcat]

Further to my post a bit earlier I was just at the ORR data for Northern.......and for 2016 it works out at 111 passengers per service .....still pretty much the equivalent of a 2 car pacer .

Worth noting it's going up at a time when seating capacity is being reduced for accessibility improvements. The 'ePacer' only has around 80 seats, while the 'refurbished' Northern 150s have around 120 seats.

A more striking piece of data however was the rate of complaints per 100000 passengers. This has fallen dramatically from 31 to 16.

I imagine the introduction of Delay Repay is partly responsible for that. A passenger saying their train was 45 minutes late is no longer a compliant - it's now a Delay Repay claim.

 

[bramling]

It doesn't necessarily, though. People have this impression of every train full and standing on London commuter services, and this just isn't true. I have a near 100% record of a seat when commuting. You just have to avoid the odd overcrowded train.

What's significant about the North's crowding problem is that (on TPE at least) it seems to exist at most times of day.

It's interesting how when overcrowding comes up it's nearly always TPE that gets mentioned. Maybe I've been lucky, however I've never found TPE to be so bad. I'd say something like London Overground is worse. Sure Leeds to Huddersfield in the evening peak is horrific, but this is still a fairly short journey by most standards. At other times I've seen TPE busy but by no means full to the bursting extent many here speak of, except when something has gone wrong and a service has been cancelled or whatever.

I'm not saying the north shouldn't see rail investment, and unlike the south-east a lot of overcrowding could be relatively simply fixed with more rolling stock and some strategic platform extensions. But the constant bitching about how the north gets a bad deal compared to elsewhere I find quite tedious. I think many would be surprised to experience a morning-peak journey into London from many places in the Home Counties or slightly further afield. No cheap car parking, a fight to get on the train, potentially standing for a long period of time like 45 mins to an hour, and then perhaps repeating elements of the experience if using London Underground. The whole experience will probably be a lot more expensive too.

To those who think there is often spare space at the back on London commuter services, try a route like Hertford North to Moorgate in the morning peak. The only spare space is the unused driving cabs! Ditto Uckfield to London Bridge.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's interesting how when overcrowding comes up it's nearly always TPE that gets mentioned. Maybe I've been lucky, however I've never found TPE to be so bad. I'd say something like London Overground is worse.

LO/LU is a metro service with metro configuration.

TPE is IC/Regional Express.

Expectations and needs are very different - standing is to be expected on the former, there should not be any standing on the latter, particularly "off peak".

 

[Senex]

It's interesting how when overcrowding comes up it's nearly always TPE that gets mentioned. Maybe I've been lucky, however I've never found TPE to be so bad. I'd say something like London Overground is worse.

My personal experience of TPE is always well-filled and on the Leeds-Manchester section (especially the first half of it too often unpleasantly over-filled). That has included once standing in First from Durham on a Newcastle starter and once the same from Manchester Airport on a train starting there.

Sure Leeds to Huddersfield in the evening peak is horrific, but this is still a fairly short journey by most standards.

But that standard of overcrowding is not acceptable to passengers making lengthy journeys on a service that claims not to be a suburban operation.

 

[Moonshot]

Worth noting it's going up at a time when seating capacity is being reduced for accessibility improvements. The 'ePacer' only has around 80 seats, while the 'refurbished' Northern 150s have around 120 seats.



I imagine the introduction of Delay Repay is partly responsible for that. A passenger saying their train was 45 minutes late is no longer a compliant - it's now a Delay Repay claim.

You imagine wrong......we had a briefing a few weeks ago.....I can safely say delay repay has been minimal.

Its worth noting that we as staff also get to see KPIs .....there are a whole host of them but one that stood out for me is that we are currently missing revenue and profit targets...that a fact

 

[northwichcat]

You imagine wrong......we had a briefing a few weeks ago.....I can safely say delay repay has been minimal.

I think it's easier to have a conversation with Google than with you. :roll: You pick some terms out of a post and then quote something related to those terms without relating it to what the actual meaning of the post which you are quoting.

I'm saying people won't complain as much because there's a more generous compensation scheme in place now. A Delay Repay submission is not a compliant. If someone complains they are unhappy with Delay Repay then that is a complaint. Given you don't understand the meaning of the 'facts' you are quoting - just stop quoting them!

Its worth noting that we as staff also get to see KPIs .....there are a whole host of them but one that stood out for me is that we are currently missing revenue and profit targets...that a fact

No-one cares whether the franchise is meeting a profit target, except the shareholders and senior management. Old Northern made up to £30m profit a year and it didn't benefit the passengers in any way. If anything the passengers suffered because of it, as more passengers meant more overcrowded services.

 

[Bletchleyite]

But that standard of overcrowding is not acceptable to passengers making lengthy journeys on a service that claims not to be a suburban operation.

Precisely. It might be acceptable for a genuine local service with a seating layout like that on LO (if Northern can't get more rolling stock, should it seriously consider that seating layout for short-distance stopping services perhaps?) - but it's not acceptable for IC, as it is just as likely to be the passengers from Manchester to Newcastle who can't get on, can't get a seat, can't use the bog or whatever.

If there won't be changes to rolling stock nor to service patterns, the only other way I can see to solve it is to offer XC style TMRs (ten minute reservations) available by phone, TVM etc, but not offering these for local journeys. But that is just likely to cause arguments and is not a proper solution.

 

[bramling]

My personal experience of TPE is always well-filled and on the Leeds-Manchester section (especially the first half of it too often unpleasantly over-filled). That has included once standing in First from Durham on a Newcastle starter and once the same from Manchester Airport on a train starting there.


But that standard of overcrowding is not acceptable to passengers making lengthy journeys on a service that claims not to be a suburban operation.

The difficulty is that no matter which way it is spun, TPE is a de-facto commuter service between York and Manchester. Little different to flows like Reading to London or Cambridge to London in my view.

Not ideal by any means, but I still don't think it's any worse an experience than something which would be found in the London area.

 

[coppercapped]

I think it's easier to have a conversation with Google than with you. :roll: You pick some terms out of a post and then quote something related to those terms without relating it to what the actual meaning of the post which you are quoting.

I'm saying people won't complain as much because there's a more generous compensation scheme in place now. A Delay Repay submission is not a compliant. If someone complains they are unhappy with Delay Repay then that is a complaint. Given you don't understand the meaning of the 'facts' you are quoting - just stop quoting them!



No-one cares whether the franchise is meeting a profit target, except the shareholders and senior management. Old Northern made up to £30m profit a year and it didn't benefit the passengers in any way. If anything the passengers suffered because of it, as more passengers meant more overcrowded services.

So if revenue targets are being missed there are not as many passengers being carried or they are making shorter journeys. Either way - there is more room on the trains. What's everyone complaining about?

 

[Bletchleyite]

The difficulty is that no matter which way it is spun, TPE is a de-facto commuter service between York and Manchester. Little different to flows like Reading to London or Cambridge to London in my view.

Not ideal by any means, but I still don't think it's any worse an experience than something which would be found in the London area.

It is certainly vastly vastly worse than LM's faster/longer distance commuter services. And despite its reputation, vastly worse than a lot of Thameslink trains, too, and Southern ones, and SWT.

The chance of a seat on medium to long distance commuter services in the South East is actually pretty good.

Reading is the classic exception, and that is because, like TPE, a InterCity service is being misused as a commuter service. But the grimness of commuting on GWR is not the norm by any means.

 

[northwichcat]

Precisely. It might be acceptable for a genuine local service with a seating layout like that on LO (if Northern can't get more rolling stock, should it seriously consider that seating layout for short-distance stopping services perhaps?) - but it's not acceptable for IC, as it is just as likely to be the passengers from Manchester to Newcastle who can't get on, can't get a seat, can't use the bog or whatever.

If there won't be changes to rolling stock nor to service patterns, the only other way I can see to solve it is to offer XC style TMRs (ten minute reservations) available by phone, TVM etc, but not offering these for local journeys. But that is just likely to cause arguments and is not a proper solution.

If there was a Huddersfield-Leeds S-Bahn style service then it would probably be similar to Altrincham to Manchester on Metrolink. Passengers travelling that far wouldn't be impressed if they had to stand for the entire journey.