Transpennine Route Upgrade and Electrification updates

[edwin_m]

Modern trains with three-phase motors can brake regeneratively virtually to a stop, so I imagine electric cars could too.

 

[Chester1]

If politicians were just to say: --- "Bi-modes buy us time so we do not need to rush electrification and can spread the cost over longer periods and when times are good accelerate the program a little" but in the meantime we will have a nice steady rolling program" - I think people would understand.

We will concentrate on eliminating diesel from big cities first and go from there - I actually think this would be a vote winner, positive spin, be the truth and plain freaking commonsense. But hey - that is just me.

I would go further and say that the priority was wrong. Commuter stopping services benefit more from electrification than main lines. Manchester to Leeds is an exception because of the gradients. It doesn't make a great deal of sense to focus electrification on lines with services that will benefit least from faster acceleration and no diesel fumes.

 

[furnessvale]

Modern trains with three-phase motors can brake regeneratively virtually to a stop, so I imagine electric cars could too.

Electric trains regen back into the wires for immediate use by others.

An electric car would have to regen to batteries. Genuine question, can batteries take that fast surge of charge?

 

[rich r]

I would go further and say that the priority was wrong. Commuter stopping services benefit more from electrification than main lines. Manchester to Leeds is an exception because of the gradients. It doesn't make a great deal of sense to focus electrification on lines with services that will benefit least from faster acceleration and no diesel fumes.

Don't forget though that many of the transpennine services from Manchester and beyond carry on after Leeds to York or Selby. That's totally flat with commuters getting on and off at many small stations along the route - which would suit electrification well.

 

[Moonshot]

Does anyone know what the service levels will be at Greenfield station at May 2018 timetable change?

 

[Chester1]

Don't forget though that many of the transpennine services from Manchester and beyond carry on after Leeds to York or Selby. That's totally flat with commuters getting on and off at many small stations along the route - which would suit electrification well.

I meant the national electrification policy. Leeds to York/Selby should be part of the main TP program. 185s will do a good job in the interim but they cannot beat a fast EMU with low dwell times e.g. 323 or 350.

 

[snowball]

Network Rail again linking vegetation clearance to TP electrification in this tweet and video:

https://twitter.com/NetworkRailNP/status/898182630402924544

 

[Geeves]

Does anyone know what the service levels will be at Greenfield station at May 2018 timetable change?

Should see extras in the peaks to make it half hourly. Off peak will see one TPE service per hour calling that only stops at one other station before Huddersfield. Its not going to be possible to travel to Mossley anymore for example unless you double back on yourself.

 

[snowball]

Video of the track relaying works at Micklefield Junction at Easter:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zuzxruBlvRQ

 

[The Lad]

Standedge tunnel is level, unfortunately with a higher speed in it than at the ends but it wouldn't take a lot of power to get through.

 

[IanXC]

The HS3 Northern Powerhouse Rail thread is here: http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=130416

 

[peggy7123a]

Hi does anyone know which Contractors are involved with Transpennine East and Transpennine West projects and what GRIP stage they are at? Thanks Ian

 

[IanXC]

I'm not entirely clear what GRIP stage this project is as the electrification work has been inserted into the Transpennine Route Upgrade project, which is at a stage much earlier than appointing contractors...

However, this article indicates contractors have been appointed. Although I have read this at some point it appears to be behind a paywall.

https://www.constructionnews.co.uk/...nspennine-rail-upgrade-deals/10018188.article

 

[Chester1]

Has there been any proposals to divert the Leeds-Huddersfield-Manchester stoppping services via Victoria after electrification and merge with another electric service? I was thinking of ways to reduce platforming issues at Piccadilly as trains get longer over the next 10-20 years and can't be double or treble stacked? I guess the issue would be providing Stalybridge with a decent link to Piccadilly but as long as one TPE airport service an hour stopped at Stalybridge then it would be connected but with a longer journey time than now. Just thinking out loud with this one!

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Has there been any proposals to divert the Leeds-Huddersfield-Manchester stoppping services via Victoria after electrification and merge with another electric service? I was thinking of ways to reduce platforming issues at Piccadilly as trains get longer over the next 10-20 years and can't be double or treble stacked? I guess the issue would be providing Stalybridge with a decent link to Piccadilly but as long as one TPE airport service an hour stopped at Stalybridge then it would be connected but with a longer journey time than now. Just thinking out loud with this one!

HS2 will take away the London and Birmingham services from the existing station.
Some of the "HS3" potential alignments have underground loops through Piccadilly and on through the city, emerging at Miles Platting, and also take away Liverpool and Leeds services.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

Has there been any proposals to divert the Leeds-Huddersfield-Manchester stoppping services via Victoria after electrification and merge with another electric service? I was thinking of ways to reduce platforming issues at Piccadilly as trains get longer over the next 10-20 years and can't be double or treble stacked? I guess the issue would be providing Stalybridge with a decent link to Piccadilly but as long as one TPE airport service an hour stopped at Stalybridge then it would be connected but with a longer journey time than now. Just thinking out loud with this one!

Any Ordsall curve service as a connection forward from Victoria? The slightly extended journey time compared with now is one of those prices worth paying. It'll still be quicker than the road journey.

 

[snowball]

I'm not entirely clear what GRIP stage this project is as the electrification work has been inserted into the Transpennine Route Upgrade project

As I understand it the route upgrade is in GRIP 3, which is expected to complete later this year.

which is at a stage much earlier than appointing contractors...

However, this article indicates contractors have been appointed.

Early Contractor Involvement has been commonplace in Highways England road contracts for years. I don't know if it's equally popular with Network Rail.

Although I have read this at some point it appears to be behind a paywall.

https://www.constructionnews.co.uk/...nspennine-rail-upgrade-deals/10018188.article

First time I clicked on it I could read it, second and subsequent times I couldn't. It gives me the option of registering for "limited access" - I haven't explored that yet.

 

[causton]

https://www.constructionnews.co.uk/...nspennine-rail-upgrade-deals/10018188.article

It works once, and once only, it seems.

Here it is!

COMMENT
Contractors have been chosen for up to £2.5bn of rail enhancements between York and Manchester, Construction News understands.

MORE FROM: JVS WIN HUGE TRANSPENNINE RAIL UPGRADE DEALS
Network Rail is believed to have chosen joint ventures to deliver two packages of work on the TransPennine route upgrade.

A joint venture of Amey and Bam Nuttall is understood to have been named preferred bidder for the largest package, covering civils and electrification upgrades west of Leeds.

An alliance between VolkerRail, Murphy and Siemens is believed to be preferred bidder for the package of works for lines east of Leeds.

The west of Leeds contract, which is valued at between £800m and £2bn by Network Rail and could last nine years, will see the team carry out work on lines between Leeds and Manchester via Huddersfield.

Construction News understands that Arup is the designer and rail specialist Lundy Projects is also part of the team.

CN reported last summer that Amey and Bam were bidding for the contract against a Carillion team; Costain’s joint venture with Alstom and Babcock; and an alliance between Atkins, Laing O’Rourke, Murphy and VolkerRail.

The east of Leeds contract is understood to be worth up to £500m and to cover the lines between Leeds, York and Selby.

Jacobs is thought to have been chosen as the lead designer for this work.

Both packages will require a multi-disciplinary approach with design-and-build, track, signalling and communication enhancements included in the work.

The east and west rail packages are two of three construction deals to be let under the TransPennine Route upgrade scheme.

The other contract will be for the multi-million-pound redevelopment of Leeds station.

A masterplan for that project is being drawn up by an Atkins-led consortium including Arup, Bam Construction, Gensler, Bilfinger GVA, Faithful + Gould and Albion Economics.

Public accounts committee chair Meg Hillier this month raised questions over the viability of planned rail upgrade schemes in light of problems electrifying the Great Western Main Line.

She said: “The DfT should urgently review its plans for electrification — not just on the different sections of the Great Western route, but also on the Midland Main Line and TransPennine routes.”

Network Rail declined to comment.

 

[lejog]

It works once, and once only, it seems.

Here it is!

Or as many times as you like if you remove the sites cookies

So a preferred bidder established, rather than a contract awarded. But the cost estimates are interesting, the initial estimate of £250m has soared to £2.5bn and timescales are now 9 years.

Whether Manchester to Leeds goes ahead or is ditched in favour of NPR (cost as high as £7bn according to a certain Mr Osborne) is an interesting question - we shall no doubt find out within the next 12 months. Manchester to Leeds in 40mins for £2bn or 30mins for £xbn?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Network Rail's contracting policy for electrification is unfathomable.
A number of contracts have been awarded, but then delivered by somebody else, or a mix of contractors.
This one appears to be before GRIP3 has been reached, or the NPR studies published.

 

[edwin_m]

This is likelky to be an example of Early Contractor Involvement and/or some sort of Alliance arrangement. The idea is to get the buider involved in the design early on so that they can ensure the design is easily constructable, and also to have some kind of cost-sharing arrangement so that the contractor is incentivised to minimise the total cost rather than to maximise their own share of it.

 

[Mollman]

There is a rather ****-poor speech from Chris Grayling:
https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/government-invests-in-northern-transport-infrastructure

It includes the depressing quote of:

If the trains can run seamlessly in diesel and electric, do we really need to cause disruption and close the Standedge tunnel for weeks to put wires through it, as we did with the Severn Tunnel, if the trains can run through it anyway?

 

[GRALISTAIR]

There is a rather ****-poor speech from Chris Grayling:
https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/government-invests-in-northern-transport-infrastructure

It includes the depressing quote of:

Yes depressing but my glass is half full answer is" Lets get bits electrified" -it is progress and other bits such as Standedge tunnel can still get done later. Nice steady progress.

 

[Chester1]

Yes depressing but my glass is half full answer is" Lets get bits electrified" -it is progress and other bits such as Standedge tunnel can still get done later. Nice steady progress.

Its depressing but he sounds like he is keeping his options open rather than ruling anything out. Leeds to Huddersfield is probably the best part to do first. The stopping service on this section reduces capacity therefore EMUs would provide more flexibility and there is sufficient demand to use 319s. There are fewer line speed upgrade options on this section therefore it would hopefully be easier to do both at the same time. Reversing the decision to pause Miles Platting to Stalybridge would relieve pressure on Victoria. The middle bit could be done last.

 

[ainsworth74]

Yes depressing but my glass is half full answer is" Lets get bits electrified" -it is progress and other bits such as Standedge tunnel can still get done later. Nice steady progress.

Yes I'm almost not fussed what gets wired as long as we keep wiring something. The crucial thing is to avoid another cliff edge where the supply chain and skills we've redeveloped in the last eightish years is allowed to wither away again. If that means not wiring Standedge tunnel right now so be it!

 

[1179_Clee2]

Its depressing but he sounds like he is keeping his options open rather than ruling anything out. Leeds to Huddersfield is probably the best part to do first. The stopping service on this section reduces capacity therefore EMUs would provide more flexibility and there is sufficient demand to use 319s. There are fewer line speed upgrade options on this section therefore it would hopefully be easier to do both at the same time. Reversing the decision to pause Miles Platting to Stalybridge would relieve pressure on Victoria. The middle bit could be done last.

Most local services are not Leeds to Huddersfield direct via Dewsbury any more.
Leeds to Manchester Vic via Dewsbury, Brighouse and the calder valley
Selby to Huddersfield via Bradford, Halifax and Brighouse
No 319 could be used ONLY 769 or plain DMU's

 

[Bantamzen]

Yes depressing but my glass is half full answer is" Lets get bits electrified" -it is progress and other bits such as Standedge tunnel can still get done later. Nice steady progress.

When it comes to government schemes, I work from the default position of glass half empty. Clearly Grayling sees partial wiring with bi-modes as his ideal solution, the problem is that once you start to think about leaving out sections like Standedge, then in ministers eyes the arguments for leaving out longer sections like Stalybridge - Huddersfield, or even Leeds become stronger. After all if bi-modes can handle short sections then why not longer ones too. After all if the diesel engines are going to be fired up some minutes before the pantograph comes down, why bother wiring as far as Huddersfield in either direction? It's a slippery slope.

My understanding, albeit purely layman's, is that the best solution in terms of energy, acceleration and therefore pathing is electric. Even with the idea of a "digital" solution for signalling, you have got a line that will have a mixture of fast, semi-fasts & stoppers / skip-stoppers vying for the same tracks. If 4 tracking is not an option then getting the slowest services on the route moving quickly after stops is key to success. The route is effectively only as fast as the slowest services on it. I'm sure everyone that uses the route enough has had enough of a TPE running up behind a late running stopper, which can quickly add 10-15 minutes onto the transit time depending on where the catch-up occurs. If the stoppers are to be running even for part of the route under diesel traction, then frankly I see exactly the same problems occurring as with now.

Quite why electrification has become such a dark art in this country is frankly beyond me. We used to be able to do it, and certainly other countries still can, so just what happened to the rail industry to lose such ability without running massively over time and cost? The North TP really shouldn't be that much of a problem surely? Whilst it does run along, over and under quite a bit of Victorian infrastructure it's nothing ground-breaking is it? At the risk of getting into a rant, it kind of sums up just how poor this country has become at engineering projects. That's not to say we don't have the engineers, I'm sure we do, its just how badly managed many of the become. Maybe its the managerial facets that need closer inspection?

Getting back to the topic, Grayling cites reducing disruptions by not wiring Standedge for now. But surely with the other improvements proposed, the Stalybridge - Huddersfield section is going to be subject to a number of possessions, so I am thinking too far out of the box to think these would be an ideal time to prep the tunnel for the wires?

 

[ash39]

Its depressing but he sounds like he is keeping his options open rather than ruling anything out. Leeds to Huddersfield is probably the best part to do first. The stopping service on this section reduces capacity therefore EMUs would provide more flexibility and there is sufficient demand to use 319s. There are fewer line speed upgrade options on this section therefore it would hopefully be easier to do both at the same time. Reversing the decision to pause Miles Platting to Stalybridge would relieve pressure on Victoria. The middle bit could be done last.

Bi-modes allow this kind of approach, and now they're ordered it does remove some of the urgency to get it done, which is both good and bad. In theory, the piece by piece approach should be less disruptive.

I can't believe Neville Hill to Colton Jn isn't given higher priority for electrification. It's a fairly short section in the grand scheme of things, and it would give more options for VTEC shuffling stock in times of disruption (currently electrics have to run to Doncaster and reverse to do this). It would also allow a reshuffling of local services, maybe running the Doncaster stoppers through to York using spare 321/322s and releasing DMUs by starting the Blackpool North services at Leeds.

Probably all incidental now the new fleets have been ordered based on no new wires...

 

[GRALISTAIR]

I think Leeds to York should get done first then Miles Platting to Stalybridge grid feeder then the middle but

 

[Bantamzen]

I think Leeds to York should get done first then Miles Platting to Stalybridge grid feeder then the middle but

Leeds - York / Selby / Hambleton makes the most sense to go first, as mentioned above it would then give VTEC an alternative route out of Leeds (something they may well have been planning for anyway), as well as a diversionary route. And of course the TPE bi-modes could run electric from at least Leeds going north rather than from York. Plus with a bit of careful planning the stoppers could be switched to electric, either starting in the east facing bays at Leeds or running through from the Aire & Wharfe valleys. The faster acceleration of the 333s and hopefully the 331s should help alleviate at least some of the bottleneck problems on that stretch.