Votes for 16

[Up_Tilt_390]

While the topic is still relevant, I thought it'd be worth the discussion. Recently there was another proposal to decrease the voting age to 16, and this has been proposed for many years, but has always been filibustered. There are valid arguments on both sides, but personally I am against it.

Firstly, I think that 16 is too young and that even 18 is being generous. If people now have to do some form of education until 18 then it means voters would still be in school or college, giving them no experience of the outside world.

Secondly, young people tend to be very naive and impressionable, especially to left-wing politics. Furthermore there is an overwhelming amount of left-leaning teachers and professors in the education system, so if they're still at school most of them won't hear a reasonable view of the other side. All you are likely to hear is why you shouldn't vote Tory.

Finally, let's not pretend this is the left-wing parties wanting to give young people a voice in politics, because it really isn't. Notice how the Tories don't want to pass this bill? It's no coincidence when you consider that even 18-25 years olds mostly don't vote Conservative. But what you are likely to get is more people chanting 'Oh Jeremy Corbyn' outside of the polling stations.

Now I acknowledge that not every young person is so naive and impressionable, and in fact I don't think it's unreasonable to suggest that some are more mature than most politicians in Westminster. But where do you draw the line? You can't exclude some 16/17 year olds because of your perception on what's informed or not.

Yes, 16-year olds can join the military, have sexual intercourse, have a family, get married and buy a house as well as pay taxes, but I do think that those things should be evaluated as well. Ultimately, I would argue that 16-year olds are too young to pay taxes, and to be fair I'd rather they either paid taxes with a vote or didn't pay any without one. I don't think any other way is fair.

But what's your thoughts on the subject?

 

[takno]

There are plenty of right wing older people who show little or no evidence of contact with the modern world as well. Government makes decisions about thousands of things that individual voters could never have actual direct experience of, so really direct experience is overrated anyway. Added to that, at 16 people generally have an experience of living in a family, access to (and often a great inclination to read) information about the wider world, often have a job of some kind, and may well have more time and mobility to mix with a wider section of society than people who are older.

As to the Tories needing to restrict this... Most people under 50 now don't support the Tories, so it's hardly a sign of callow youth, and an extra two years of voters really isn't going to make all that much difference. They'd be better off figuring out how to engage with people who are not yet retired rather than trying to restrict the franchise

 

[ooo]

I think 16 year olds should have at least had a vote in the EU referendum as it was their future. In general elections I think that they should have votes and you could argue that any group of people shouldn't be able to vote for a number of reasons.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm in favour, personally. I was in favour at 16, and I'm in favour at twice that plus two. It's about their future, they need engaging in it while they are young. It certainly can't make things worse.

Maybe it's because I'm involved in Scouting and so see lots of self-aware, thinking teenagers who really need to stop being ignored when talking about their future? (I certainly think they should have received the vote on Brexit given its long-term impact unlike a 5 year Parliament...)

As for filibustering, it needs legislation to stop it, it's a disgraceful practice and shows the person who does it to be worse behaved than a 3 year old. The rule should be that debate must cease in time for a vote on any debate, should the debate be due one.

 

[Up_Tilt_390]

As for filibustering, it needs legislation to stop it, it's a disgraceful practice and shows the person who does it to be worse behaved than a 3 year old. The rule should be that debate must cease in time for a vote on any debate, should the debate be due one.

This here is where you begin to ask about the maturity argument and where a line is drawn on the age. The amount of times I've heard MPs cheering in Parliament and making all sorts of noise makes me wonder if I'm watching Prime Minister's Questions or the world's most confined football match. I don't think I need to give much justification when I say that some 16-year olds deserve the vote more than Boris Johnson for example...

 

[BananaRepublic]

......I would argue that 16-year olds are too young to pay taxes, and to be fair I'd rather they either paid taxes with a vote or didn't pay any without one......

There is no minimum age to paying taxes.
It doesn't matter if you are 16, 6 or 6 months old, the personal tax allowances apply equally.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This here is where you begin to ask about the maturity argument and where a line is drawn on the age. The amount of times I've heard MPs cheering in Parliament and making all sorts of noise makes me wonder if I'm watching Prime Minister's Questions or the world's most confined football match. I don't think I need to give much justification when I say that some 16-year olds deserve the vote more than Boris Johnson for example...

Quite. I find behaviour in Parliament to be quite sickening. It's almost enough to make me want to move to Scotland and campaign for independence - they are far more mature.

I think we need massive reform. I'd start by relegating the Palace of Westminster to being a tourist attraction and building a completely new building with a circular chamber - that on its own promotes consensus rather than adversity. (Move it to Birmingham and save a load of money while you're at it).

Personally, I'm strongly of the view that the UK manages *despite* Parliament, not because of it - and that's regardless of which party happens to be in.

 

[Up_Tilt_390]

There is no minimum age to paying taxes.
It doesn't matter if you are 16, 6 or 6 months old, the personal tax allowances apply equally.

No minimum age you say? Some might then argue that 16 isn't low enough.

 

[Bletchleyite]

No minimum age you say? Some might then argue that 16 isn't low enough.

Though, given the restrictions on paid employment, few <16s will actually be paying income tax.

Of course they don't avoid VAT, which is one reason I really dislike it as a tax.

 

[Qwerty133]

I'm in favour, personally. I was in favour at 16, and I'm in favour at twice that plus two. It's about their future, they need engaging in it while they are young. It certainly can't make things worse.

Maybe it's because I'm involved in Scouting and so see lots of self-aware, thinking teenagers who really need to stop being ignored when talking about their future? (I certainly think they should have received the vote on Brexit given its long-term impact unlike a 5 year Parliament...)

As for filibustering, it needs legislation to stop it, it's a disgraceful practice and shows the person who does it to be worse behaved than a 3 year old. The rule should be that debate must cease in time for a vote on any debate, should the debate be due one.

Schools and teachers quite heavily pushed for a remain vote in the referendum so it is virtually impossible to see how 16 year olds could have voted fairly on the issue (especially with the culture of being expected to do what the teacher says alive and well at many schools).

 

[Bletchleyite]

Schools and teachers quite heavily pushed for a remain vote in the referendum so it is virtually impossible to see how 16 year olds could have voted fairly on the issue (especially with the culture of being expected to do what the teacher says alive and well at many schools).

I think you really underestimate the intelligence of young people. I know a number of young Brexit voters who have made that decision on their own. Much as I disagree with it, of course

Remember that people used to marry and set up households at 16. Modern 16 year olds are not *that* different, despite the way adults seem to like making them out to be babies.

Try doing some voluntary youth work (e.g. in Explorer Scouting, NCS or something similar) and you will see just how thinking and capable they are. Far more so than so many adults in their 30s or 40s who just vote for party X because they always did.

 

[DarloRich]

I could quite easily have voted at 16. My views were clear. They still are. I would have voted Labour then. I vote Labour now. I come from the north east and a mining , ship building and steel working family. Distrust ( hatred?) of Tories runs deep. We know what they are really like.

If allowing 16 year olds to votes keeps the Tories out i am all for it

 

[Bletchleyite]

I could quite easily have voted at 16. My views were clear. They still are. I would have voted Labour then. I vote Labour now. I come from the north east and a mining , ship building and steel working family. Distrust ( hatred?) of Tories runs deep. We know what they are really like.

If allowing 16 year olds to votes keeps the Tories out i am all for it

I think the reason so many adults in their 40s and older fear it is that it would result in more left-wing seats.

I don't know about what it would have done for Brexit, though. I wouldn't be surprised if the result was the same - the issues are not left-wing or right-wing, they are quite different.

 

[DarloRich]

I think the reason so many adults in their 40s and older fear it is that it would result in more left-wing seats.

I don't know about what it would have done for Brexit, though. I wouldn't be surprised if the result was the same - the issues are not left-wing or right-wing, they are quite different.

See final paragraph

 

[Up_Tilt_390]

Schools and teachers quite heavily pushed for a remain vote in the referendum so it is virtually impossible to see how 16 year olds could have voted fairly on the issue (especially with the culture of being expected to do what the teacher says alive and well at many schools).

I think you really underestimate the intelligence of young people. I know a number of young Brexit voters who have made that decision on their own. Much as I disagree with it, of course

Remember that people used to marry and set up households at 16. Modern 16 year olds are not *that* different, despite the way adults seem to like making them out to be babies.

Try doing some voluntary youth work (e.g. in Explorer Scouting, NCS or something similar) and you will see just how thinking and capable they are. Far more so than so many adults in their 30s or 40s who just vote for party X because they always did.

Both these arguments have some elements of truth. But I do think that 16-17 year olds are just as susceptible to brainwashing, if not more, from the overwhelming amount of pro-EU and left-wing teachers (pro-EU doesn't mean left-wing by the way). That's why I appreciate a young person having a mind of their own, but often times they either won't care about politics likes most 18-25 year olds, they will just vote the way their teachers encourage them too, or they think it won't make a difference (in which one vote won't really in most cases, but the problem is the abundance of people thinking that way).

 

[DarloRich]

Both these arguments have some elements of truth. But I do think that 16-17 year olds are just as susceptible to brainwashing, if not more, from the overwhelming amount of pro-EU and left-wing teachers (pro-EU doesn't mean left-wing by the way). That's why I appreciate a young person having a mind of their own, but often times they either won't care about politics likes most 18-25 year olds, they will just vote the way their teachers encourage them too, or they think it won't make a difference (in which one vote won't really in most cases, but the problem is the abundance of people thinking that way).

What a load of rubbish.

 

[takno]

Schools and teachers quite heavily pushed for a remain vote in the referendum so it is virtually impossible to see how 16 year olds could have voted fairly on the issue (especially with the culture of being expected to do what the teacher says alive and well at many schools).

I doubt a single school had an established position on the referendum. Teachers may well have expressed their opinion, but I don't know anybody in the 16-18 age group that is particularly inclined to do what their teachers tell them outside of school. You might as well argue that they were unduly influenced by the Brexity rants their grandparents read to them from the Daily Mail.

 

[Up_Tilt_390]

What a load of rubbish.

Care to elaborate why?

 

[Up_Tilt_390]

I doubt a single school had an established position on the referendum. Teachers may well have expressed their opinion, but I don't know anybody in the 16-18 age group that is particularly inclined to do what their teachers tell them outside of school. You might as well argue that they were unduly influenced by the Brexity rants their grandparents read to them from the Daily Mail.

I pity those who may have such grandparents. Dare I call myself lucky to come from a more liberal family.

 

[DarloRich]

Care to elaborate why?

As takno says i very much doubt kids care what their teachers think outside of school. They are most likely to pick up their views from their parents or their parents choice of media.

Many of my teachers ( some time a go now) would have made Hitler look soft. They weren't very lefty, but there is nothing like a good conspiracy theory eh ;- )

 

[Up_Tilt_390]

Many of my teachers ( some time a go now) would have made Hitler look soft. They weren't very lefty, but there is nothing like a good conspiracy theory eh ;- )

Evidently we attended very different schools with very different teachers. But unlike you I'm not dismissing your experience as a conspiracy theory. The worst I've done is asked you to elaborate on why my point was a load of rubbish. Your point about neo-Nazi teachers would've been enough...

 

[DarloRich]

Evidently we attended very different schools with very different teachers. But unlike you I'm not dismissing your experience as a conspiracy theory. The worst I've done is asked you to elaborate on why my point was a load of rubbish. Your point about neo-Nazi teachers would've been enough...

interestingly on picking up my facetious comment you miss the important one. I suspect youngsters views are more likely to be reflective of the views of their parents and their parents choice of media rather than at school. perhaps you are still a youngster yourself and haven't yet been able to reflect on this position.

 

[Kite159]

If we get votes for 16, can there be a term limit put on for MPs limiting them to 3 elections before having to hand over to someone new?

(At least it will stop some of MPs who stand in a very strong area from not really caring, and get some new faces in parliament who have been out in the working world rather than some who have never done a day's work in the private sector)

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Secondly, young people tend to be very naive and impressionable, especially to left-wing politics. Furthermore there is an overwhelming amount of left-leaning teachers and professors in the education system, so if they're still at school most of them won't hear a reasonable view of the other side. All you are likely to hear is why you shouldn't vote Tory.

That reads a bit like "I don't want 16 year-olds to have the vote because they won't vote for the same party I want to win".

Personally I'm quite dubious about lowering the voting age, but I don't think young people's likely support for any particular political party should come into the arguments.

As for the numbers of left-leaning teachers and professors... my understanding is that schools and colleges are required to be politically impartial (or has it changed since I was at school?), so teachers etc. are not really able to teach massively biased points of view - unlike, say, various newspapers that are largely read by over-18's! And as an aside, you might want to give some though to why people whose careers rely to some extent on logical, rational, thinking and good academic achievement appear as a group to be less inclined to favour right-wing politics (obviously, with some exceptions)

 

[sk688]

As a 16 year old myself , I do believe that we should be given the vote , and I believe that many of the " maturity " arguments , especially from MPs , are hypocritical , given the way that MP's behave in Parliament and their use of filibustering which are obviously so very mature

Furthermore , as to the point of schools being left wing , most of our teachers do not really voice political opinions, although , and they tend to allow us to make our own points , and are generally non partisan , although during the 2016 EU Ref , my former economics teacher was in favour of a " Hard Brexit " , and made her dislike of the EU very clear , and was generally Conservative in her views

And finally , as to the point of " naive and mis-informed" , I would urge some of the people who say this , to take a look at Politics Students ( as well as others like Econ etc) ,and judge for themselves how " mis-informed " and " naive " we are

 

[Up_Tilt_390]

interestingly on picking up my facetious comment you miss the important one. I suspect youngsters views are more likely to be reflective of the views of their parents and their parents choice of media rather than at school. perhaps you are still a youngster yourself and haven't yet been able to reflect on this position.

I come from a large family that includes white supremacists, neo-conservatives, half-and-half between liberal and conservative, UKIP voters, loyal Labour voters, a variety of left-wingers, and those with no political opinions of their own. I'm just glad I never turned out a neo-Nazi.

That reads a bit like "I don't want 16 year-olds to have the vote because they won't vote for the same party I want to win".

Personally I'm quite dubious about lowering the voting age, but I don't think young people's likely support for any particular political party should come into the arguments.

As for the numbers of left-leaning teachers and professors... my understanding is that schools and colleges are required to be politically impartial (or has it changed since I was at school?), so teachers etc. are not really able to teach massively biased points of view - unlike, say, various newspapers that are largely read by over-18's! Besides, you might want to give some though to why people whose careers rely to some extent on logical, rational, thinking and good academic achievement appear to be less inclined to favour right-wing politics

Rest assured I'm non-partisan, I just think this is an attempt by the left-wing parties to get more votes by hoping to manipulate young minds into buying their policies by using their discontent with the way things are at the moment with our crony-capitalist system. Youngsters also tend to love Jeremy Corbyn more than elders do.

I don't think the laws have changed in regards to impartiality at schools but there doesn't seem to be any practices to stop teachers from forcing their views. To be fair to schools this seems more of a problem at college and university. I once knew someone at school who was kind of centrist, but since attending Uni has become one of those social justice warriors who preaches love and thinks it'll eventually end all violence in the world, comparing Donald Trump to Hitler even though they're perfectly allowed to make those allegations and therefore aren't ruled by a fascist dictator. Not yet anyway.

 

[Senex]

Much as I dislike the idea of doing anything that might help Labour in any way at all, I do think there's a very strong case for votes at 16 — as long as a number of other things are broght into line, such as an end to "cannot be named for legal reasons" for 16-year-old criminals etc. If people are old enough to participate fully in the democratic process, then they're old enough to be fully responsible for their own actions too.
However, I don't think I like the idea of a 16-year-old as an MP — but then I don't really like 18-year-olds, 21-year-olds, or other relatively young people, and older ones who have no experience of work doing other than politics in one form or another, as potential MPs.
Ideally, as Bletchleyite says above, we need massive reform (though I think parliament ought to go to Manchester or Leeds, certainly not Birmingham) and a new model of parliament. Couple that massive reform with votes at 16, perhaps ....

 

[Bromley boy]

That reads a bit like "I don't want 16 year-olds to have the vote because they won't vote for the same party I want to win".

Personally I'm quite dubious about lowering the voting age, but I don't think young people's likely support for any particular political party should come into the arguments.

As for the numbers of left-leaning teachers and professors... my understanding is that schoolsAnd as an aside, you might want to give some though to why people whose careers rely to some extent on logical, rational, thinking and good academic achievement appear as a group to be less inclined to favour right-wing politics (obviously, with some exceptions)

That reads a bit like "I don't want 16 year-olds to have the vote because they won't vote for the same party I want to win".

Personally I'm quite dubious about lowering the voting age, but I don't think young people's likely support for any particular political party should come into the arguments.

As for the numbers of left-leaning teachers and professors... my understanding is that schools and colleges are required to be politically impartial (or has it changed since I was at school?), so teachers etc. are not really able to teach massively biased points of view - unlike, say, various newspapers that are largely read by over-18's! And as an aside, you might want to give some though to why people whose careers rely to some extent on logical, rational, thinking and good academic achievement appear as a group to be less inclined to favour right-wing politics (obviously, with some exceptions)

That's an interesting one.

I found most of my teachers were professional and mature enough not to express any political opinions during their teaching. The ones who did express a preference would invariably be left of centre (and usually quite preachy about it). University was a hotbed of lefties although it was amusing how quickly many of the left wing students suddenly abandoned their lofty ideals when they were confronted with the prospect of highly paid jobs working in the city.

In terms of equating being academically able with being left wing. I would respectfully disagree with that. I reckon most doctors, lawyers, accountants and management consultants, all academic, will be pragmatic, centre-right, small-government Tories. I think as a general point people to the left of the spectrum tend to be more vociferous about their political views, and this can distort the true picture.

I reckon how left or right wing you are is determined much more by your upbringing, background, values etc. than how academic or otherwise you might be.

 

[DarloRich]

I come from a large family that includes white supremacists, neo-conservatives, half-and-half between liberal and conservative, UKIP voters, loyal Labour voters, a variety of left-wingers, and those with no political opinions of their own. I'm just glad I never turned out a neo-Nazi.

there is a lot of you!

IRest assured I'm non-partisan, I just think this is an attempt by the left-wing parties to get more votes by hoping to manipulate young minds into buying their policies by using their discontent with the way things are at the moment with our crony-capitalist system. Youngsters also tend to love Jeremy Corbyn more than elders do.

I don't think the laws have changed in regards to impartiality at schools but there doesn't seem to be any practices to stop teachers from forcing their views. To be fair to schools this seems more of a problem at college and university. I once knew someone at school who was kind of centrist, but since attending Uni has become one of those social justice warriors who preaches love and thinks it'll eventually end all violence in the world, comparing Donald Trump to Hitler even though they're perfectly allowed to make those allegations and therefore aren't ruled by a fascist dictator. Not yet anyway.

You go on about people thinking for themselves and not having evil leftist views forced on them yet you regurgitate standard alt right snowflakery like "social justice worrier" and spouting on about a left wing conspiracy in educational establishments to turn children against brexit. I find that interesting.

 

[richa2002]

I could quite easily have voted at 16. My views were clear. They still are. I would have voted Labour then. I vote Labour now. I come from the north east and a mining , ship building and steel working family. Distrust ( hatred?) of Tories runs deep. We know what they are really like.

If allowing 16 year olds to votes keeps the Tories out i am all for it

That's the kind of rational approach we like to hear .