Is Heathrow Express a good use of resources?

[JamesRowden]

You haven't to remember that the HEx paths don't necessarily extend beyond Airport junction, for example during the peaks a Maidenhead fast is pathed just infront, therefore a 125mph IET/HST will just catch up with it after airport junction.

Therefore I believe that it is an efficient use of resources since that 2tph would be useless for any other service on the mains

Some Maidenhead fast services are overtaken by other mainline services since particular Maidenhead services run on the relief lines between Reading and Maidenhead (some stopping at Twyford) and switch to/from the mainlines east of Maidenhead station.

Removing the Heathrow Express services and running all mainline services non-stop at least as far as Reading would allow the capacity of the GWML to be maximised. There's potentially 24tph of Crossrail services to serve all of the locations east of Reading.

 

[irish_rail]

If Heathrow was located differently I very much doubt that say long distance trains from Scotland or the north on the WCML or ECML be allowed to be slowed down by 5 minutes just to give a HEX a clear path. Yet almost all Plymouth to London journeys have this pathing allowance added in guarenteeing that if on time the brakes will come in at Heathrow junction slowing our journeys down.

 

[route:oxford]

There seems to be a clear left wing agenda here to close down Heathrow Express through the perception that "the wrong sort" use it.

One Hundred Million people have used the Heathrow Express service since it opened.

That's approximately the same as the total number of people who voted Labour *and* who voted Conservative at every general election since the service started.

 

[Ianno87]

The biggest critics of HEx are those who don't really understand its market.

It is aimed at people (particularly business travellers) who would otherwise get taxis from Heathrow to Central London to avoid the 'throng' on normal transport and get the best door to door journey time. It is not really competing with other rail based transport.

Against a taxi fare to Central London, HEx fares then suddenly seem much better value (comparing HEx with the Piccadilly Line service is almost apple and banana). *This* is what they are going for.

It is for this reason I believe HEx will still have something of a market post Crossrail. Diminished slightly in the leisure market perhaps, yes, but still popular with people arrivimg tired off long flights who want to get to Zone 1 fast then taxi to final destination.

 

[matt_world2004]

There seems to be a clear left wing agenda here to close down Heathrow Express through the perception that "the wrong sort" use it.

One Hundred Million people have used the Heathrow Express service since it opened.

That's approximately the same as the total number of people who voted Labour *and* who voted Conservative at every general election since the service started.

I dont get the analogy.

 

[cactustwirly]

Some Maidenhead fast services are overtaken by other mainline services since particular Maidenhead services run on the relief lines between Reading and Maidenhead (some stopping at Twyford) and switch to/from the mainlines east of Maidenhead station.

Removing the Heathrow Express services and running all mainline services non-stop at least as far as Reading would allow the capacity of the GWML to be maximised. There's potentially 24tph of Crossrail services to serve all of the locations east of Reading.

I know that because I use the Maidenhead fasts.
My point was that, the paths don't exist past Airport junction because a 125mph HST/IET will just catch up with it way before Maidenhead and eat up capacity.
Or if a 387 was used on the HEx path then the HST behind it will catch up with it, again eating up capacity.

So whilst HEx is 4tph during the peak, but there will only be a maximum of 2tph available beyond Airport junction during the peaks.

EG: Out of Paddington on the mains you have the 1819 Didcot Parkway, 1825 Heathrow & 1830 Weston Super Mare.
Without the HEx the 1830 Weston will catch up with the Didcot sooner and delay the 1833 Plymouth behind it.
If a 387 was used on the 1825 path then the effect would be much worse, especially if it stopped at Slough

 

[matt_world2004]

Using the figure of 100 million journeys over 20 years (quoted earlier in the thread) using back of the fag packet calculations works out at about an average 215 passengers per hex train. This is assuming an uniform 4 tph service and no leap years and no engineering works which could curtail its operations. Quite a bit more than I was expecting but less than a full trainload.

Edit:athe figures would be slightly higher than the above because I forgot to account for boxing day closedown

Edit again: this would be more accurate hex claims that 17,000 passengers use the service each day amd a full timetabled service has 150 journeys this puts an aversge of 113 people on each train which has roughly 360 seats.using those figures .I cannot see justification for a 6tph crossrail service to heathrow. There would be more justiciation running extra services to maidenhead or reading.

 

[gazthomas]

Definitely not good use of paths. Great for travellers to Heathrow though

 

[ainsworth74]

There seems to be a clear left wing agenda here to close down Heathrow Express through the perception that "the wrong sort" use it.

Eh? I don't give a stuff who uses it. It's waste of rather vital capacity particularly once Crossrail is providing six trains per hour (as well as the Piccadilly Line's service for that matter) to the airport.

 

[JamesRowden]

I know that because I use the Maidenhead fasts.
My point was that, the paths don't exist past Airport junction because a 125mph HST/IET will just catch up with it way before Maidenhead and eat up capacity.
Or if a 387 was used on the HEx path then the HST behind it will catch up with it, again eating up capacity.

So whilst HEx is 4tph during the peak, but there will only be a maximum of 2tph available beyond Airport junction during the peaks.

EG: Out of Paddington on the mains you have the 1819 Didcot Parkway, 1825 Heathrow & 1830 Weston Super Mare.
Without the HEx the 1830 Weston will catch up with the Didcot sooner and delay the 1833 Plymouth behind it.
If a 387 was used on the 1825 path then the effect would be much worse, especially if it stopped at Slough

Just run 20tph on the mainlines at 110mph (or 125-140mph if something like 395s were used instead of 387s). Slightly longer journey times is better than overcrowded trains if the demand / line capacity ratio rises high enough.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I would like to know who these people are who use the Heathrow Express as they clearly have too much money and not enough sense.

That'd be me, when flying from Heathrow.

Last time, I'd dropped four grand on my honeymoon. For £30 extra we can use HEX. Why on earth would we slum it on the Tube for the sake of thirty quid? On that holiday I spent that on two cocktails in the hotel in Dubai.

And if you're a business traveller, work are paying anyway.

Diminished slightly in the leisure market perhaps, yes, but still popular with people arrivimg tired off long flights who want to get to Zone 1 fast then taxi to final destination.

Speaking of business travellers, my view is they are what will kill HEX. Why would you pay a premium for HEX if Crossrail will take you directly to your office in Docklands? Without the business traveller, I can't see HEX surviving.

 

[Bromley boy]

That'd be me, when flying from Heathrow.

Last time, I'd dropped four grand on my honeymoon. For £30 extra we can use HEX. Why on earth would we slum it on the Tube for the sake of thirty quid?

And if you're a business traveller, work are paying anyway.

The question is whether you'd still bother with HEX when the alternative is Crossrail rather than an hour on the Piccadilly line.

 

[Tetchytyke]

The question is whether you'd still bother with HEX when the alternative is Crossrail rather than an hour on the Piccadilly line.

I think it would depend. In rush hour, possibly, as I'd be more likely to get a seat. But only if I was going near Paddington. I used to work near Farringdon and so Crossrail would obviously win there.

I think Crossrail will kill off HEX. But I was more taking issue with the idea those of us who do use HEX are idiots.

 

[Bromley boy]

But I was more taking issue with the idea those of us who do use HEX are idiots.

Having also used it myself, agreed.

I think it would depend. In rush hour, possibly, as I'd be more likely to get a seat.

But on that point, Crossrail from Heathrow will be a spur from the mainline. Crossrail trains will therefore turn around at the airport so you'd be just as likely to get a seat as on HEX.

Difficult to see how HEX will be able to compete with that.

 

[coppercapped]

The biggest critics of HEx are those who don't really understand its market.

It is aimed at people (particularly business travellers) who would otherwise get taxis from Heathrow to Central London to avoid the 'throng' on normal transport and get the best door to door journey time. It is not really competing with other rail based transport.

Against a taxi fare to Central London, HEx fares then suddenly seem much better value (comparing HEx with the Piccadilly Line service is almost apple and banana). *This* is what they are going for.

It is for this reason I believe HEx will still have something of a market post Crossrail. Diminished slightly in the leisure market perhaps, yes, but still popular with people arrivimg tired off long flights who want to get to Zone 1 fast then taxi to final destination.

This is the correct analysis - right from the start HEx fares were intended to be competitive with TAXI fares to central London. If anyone on this Forum thinks that somebody arriving at Heathrow at 6.30 in the morning after 10 hours in a plane from Buenos Aires would voluntarily use the Piccadilly line because it's a few pounds cheaper is living in cloud-cuckooland.

The Heathrow Express website states:

On average 17,000 passengers use our service each day.

so the numbers are not insignificant.

The other factor that is often forgotten in these discussions is - the income for the railway business. I would suggest that the income generated by HEx is out of proportion to its passenger numbers. Simplifying the the numbers slightly, an annual season from Reading to Zones 1-6 costs around £5,000. Assuming it is used on 200 days in the year this equates to a daily ticket price of £12.50 each way for a 36 mile journey. People using HEx are unlikely to be using season tickets for obvious reasons and the single peak fare is £25 for a distance of about 15 miles (off-peak £22). This equates to 35p per mile for the Reading commuter and 167p per mile for the traveller to Heathrow.

So, very approximately, HEx earns four and a half times as much per passenger per mile as the commuter trains between Reading and London. One should think very carefully before putting this income at risk.

As Ianno87 suggests, the leisure travel component of these 17,000 people each day may fall after Crossrail opens, but this will only affect those living within easy reach of Crossrail - i.e., the Central Line corridor through London - with possibly some transfer from Thameslink at Farringdon. Crossrail will not greatly affect the travel plans of leisure passengers whose origin or destination do not permit an easy or quick connection to it but can reach Paddington easily by bus, tube or taxi.

 

[ainsworth74]

One should think very carefully before putting this income at risk.

Should we? Any income that HeX makes goes to Heathrow Airport Holdings. Unlike a franchised operator they do not pay premiums to the Government for running the service. They do pay track access charges for Paddington to Airport Junction (but I'd assume as an Open Access Operator it'll be the cheaper rate of charges) but that's it and I'm quite certain that someone would end up making something out of those paths (might require a timetable recast to take full advantage I suppose) so it's doubtful that Network Rail would lose that revenue stream for all that long.

It would seem to me that the only organisation that would lose out on that income is Heathrow itself. Is the airports financial position so poor that losing that income would put it in jeopardy?

 

[Bromley boy]

It is aimed at people (particularly business travellers) who would otherwise get taxis from Heathrow to Central London to avoid the 'throng' on normal transport and get the best door to door journey time. It is not really competing with other rail based transport.

This was certainly true when HEX started and is true now.

But when Crossrail fully opens it will also offer quicker end to end journey times from Heathrow to Liverpool St and Canary Wharf (quicker than taking HEX to Paddington and changing there onto an already crowded crossrail service, and likely having to stand).

 

[matt_world2004]

I believe the hex made a financial loss for heathrow. IIRC

 

[coppercapped]

Should we? Any income that HeX makes goes to Heathrow Airport Holdings. Unlike a franchised operator they do not pay premiums to the Government for running the service. They do pay track access charges for Paddington to Airport Junction (but I'd assume as an Open Access Operator it'll be the cheaper rate of charges) but that's it and I'm quite certain that someone would end up making something out of those paths (might require a timetable recast to take full advantage I suppose) so it's doubtful that Network Rail would lose that revenue stream for all that long.

It would seem to me that the only organisation that would lose out on that income is Heathrow itself. Is the airports financial position so poor that losing that income would put it in jeopardy?

Do you think that there would be any rail access to Heathrow if BAA/Heathrow had not dug the tunnels and built the trains at its expense? Crossrail is only riding piggyback on BAA/Heathrow Airport/HEx's prior endeavours.
HEx was set up before the concept of Open Access was developed, and the details of the financial deal between BAA and BR were never made public. You cannot assume the same framework - Open Access to pay only marginal costs - is in force as with the post-privatisation Open Access operators.

 

[coppercapped]

This was certainly true when HEX started and is true now.

But when Crossrail fully opens it will also offer quicker end to end journey times from Heathrow to Liverpool St and Canary Wharf (quicker than taking HEX to Paddington and changing there onto an already crowded crossrail service, and likely having to stand).

Why, in the name of all that is holy, do people insist on maintaining that the only destination for people arriving at Heathrow is Docklands?

(For those that don't know, there is an airport MUCH closer to Canary Wharf than Heathrow. It's called London City - and it can be reached from all over Europe and even New York)

 

[matt_world2004]

Do you think that there would be any rail access to Heathrow if BAA/Heathrow had not dug the tunnels and built the trains at its expense? Crossrail is only riding piggyback on BAA/Heathrow Airport/HEx's prior endeavours.
HEx was set up before the concept of Open Access was developed, and the details of the financial deal between BAA and BR were never made public. You cannot assume the same framework - Open Access to pay only marginal costs - is in force as with the post-privatisation Open Access operators.

Since the project was started by British Rail yes.

 

[Taunton]

I believe the hex made a financial loss for heathrow. IIRC

I think you will find that is a financial figures manipulation, done principally to get Crossrail to pay a grossly inflated charge for access to Heathrow - which was spotted by the ORR Regulator, backed up by the appeal judge.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-40059659

All talk of costs (and indeed revenue, and thus profit or loss) is coloured by just how the accountants play with the presented figures, and what gets put in which box on a spreadsheet, generally done to minimise your tax. Look at how Starbucks stated their UK operation just broke even ...

Why, in the name of all that is holy, do people insist on maintaining that the only destination for people arriving at Heathrow is Docklands?

Possibly because Canary Wharf Group contributed £150m cash to the Crossrail project, more than any other of the independent funders, and double what Heathrow contributed, but which they intended to grab back with their inflated charges described above.

There seems to be a clear left wing agenda here to close down Heathrow Express through the perception that "the wrong sort" use it.

My perception of seeing them arrive/leave Paddington is that few of any sort, wrong or right, are using it.

 

[Bromley boy]

Why, in the name of all that is holy, do people insist on maintaining that the only destination for people arriving at Heathrow is Docklands?

(For those that don't know, there is an airport MUCH closer to Canary Wharf than Heathrow. It's called London City - and it can be reached from all over Europe and even New York)

I did say Liverpool Street and Canary Wharf. The kind of people who will be going straight from a flight into the office will likely work for an organisation with offices in one of these locations.

Crossrail will offer the ability to reach Farringdon/Liv St in 28 minutes, Canary Wharf in 40 mins direct from Heathrow. Why would you choose HEX, spend 20 mins in a big comfy seat but then have to faff around changing trains at Paddington? I suspect many will tolerate the less comfortable surroundings of Crossrail for a much speedier and less stressful journey!

As anyone who has ever used it will know, city airport offers a very useful service but from few destinations. IIRC BA’s New York service, the airport’s only intercontinental flight, is one flight daily in an A318 with around 40 seats - hardly significant compared to the mass business class influx to Heathrow every morning.

 

[matt_world2004]

so the numbers are not insignificant.

Thats equates to about 33% of the seating capscity of a hex train..we have no way of knowing if that includes inter terminal transfers.

If a London double deck bus only picked up 20 passengers over the whole journey. The frequency of that route would be cut. There would be no consideration for increasing capacity on that route or parallel routes. It certainly wouldnt justify an extra 4 buses per hour

Unless hex pricing has suppressed demand on the route to a 10th of what it should be I cannot see justifcation for 6tph Crossrail services

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Crossrail will also obviously have greater penetration of much of the London and SE region by a simple interchange with Thameslink at Farringdon etc....I suspect Crossrail will , in any case, strip a large % of traffic off the Piccadilly line -or at least , the cost effective minded travelling public coming from the Central area.

Consider also the options for public transport to Heathrow from say Shenfield - or East Anglia by changing at Stratford - a simple change to Crossrail - as opposed to a tedious schlep around the Circle lines and not the easiest interchange to HEX at Padd.

No wonder TfL are playing it cool about putting Thameslink on their Journey Planner .....

In any case , whllst HEX has maintained a fast link to "London" since inception , the terminus has always been a bit out of the way , and in an area which until quite recently was not the most economically vibrant or even salubrious. Much has changed around Paddington , and will continue to do so.

 

[Bletchleyite]

People think that after paying £1000 or more for a holiday, paying a bit more for a fast service into London is no big deal. Some people appreciate speed, and getting things done quickly in the SE is a rare luxury these days.

Business users will be claiming travel expenses so the cost is immaterial to them, unless their employer insists they have to travel by the most financially econoical means.

They increasingly do, which is going to cause issues in the medium to long term with premium services like HEx and with First Class, which might need to end up being priced more as an add-on that staff might pay themselves.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The biggest critics of HEx are those who don't really understand its market.

It is aimed at people (particularly business travellers) who would otherwise get taxis from Heathrow to Central London to avoid the 'throng' on normal transport and get the best door to door journey time. It is not really competing with other rail based transport.

Against a taxi fare to Central London, HEx fares then suddenly seem much better value (comparing HEx with the Piccadilly Line service is almost apple and banana). *This* is what they are going for.

Yes, this I understand - but what might kill it is the likelihood that Crossrail will be *quicker* because it takes them nearer where they are going in one go.

Other than those of limited mobility I simply do not understand why anyone ever takes a taxi in central London. It is invariably slower than the rail option, even if the price is of no consideration.

 

[matt_world2004]

They increasingly do, which is going to cause issues in the medium to long term with premium services like HEx and with First Class, which might need to end up being priced more as an add-on that staff might pay themselves.

When employers suggest the most financially economical means doesnt that mean that they will only reinburse for that amount with nothing preventing the employee paying more providing they cover the difference themselves

 

[Bromley boy]

I simply do not understand why anyone ever takes a taxi in central London.

Such a situation might be if three or four colleagues are going from (say) an office in London Bridge to an address in the city for a meeting, carrying bulky presentations/bundles of documents and want to have a confidential chat on way and arrive refreshed.

In these (limited) circumstances a black taxi is still the best option.

 

[Bletchleyite]

When employers suggest the most financially economical means doesnt that mean that they will only reinburse for that amount with nothing preventing the employee paying more providing they cover the difference themselves

Generally, yes (there are exceptions such as companies who do not want their staff to be *seen* in First Class on company business, as that gives an impression of profligacy, but this is rare[1] - certainly my employer will not pay for 1st but is happy for staff to upgrade off their own backs if they wish, same with premium classes in air travel). But I very much doubt I would be paying for HEx myself if the company wouldn't cover it.

[1] Possibly more likely in the public sector than the private because of recent controversies.