Thameslink Services/Timetable from May 20th 2018

[JonathanH]

Services cut right back today south of the river via East Croydon.

Half hourly Bedford to Brighton

Hourly Redhill to Horsham

Fortunately Southeastern running Charing Cross to Hastings via Redhill

 

[jayah]

Services cut right back today south of the river via East Croydon.

Half hourly Bedford to Brighton

Hourly Redhill to Horsham

Fortunately Southeastern running Charing Cross to Hastings via Redhill

Is the 243 full cancellations posted today some sort of world record attempt?

 

[whoosh]

Advert a few months back for a train planning assistant based in London was advertised with a salary of £20-22K.
Pretty poor for a job in Central London.

It was £18-20k FIFTEEN years ago. You don't need a PhD, but do need to be good with numbers. And you do need to be appreciated by your employer, or you won't stay for a prolonged period of time and then they'll lose your skills and experience that you've built up, and be advertising to fill the position again!

 

[MML]

From speaking to those who work in the train planning team, this week has been absolute hell for them. All of the senior team and planners have worked through the night every day, stayed late, worked at home in the evenings, etc just to get something for this weekend. There have been some real monumental efforts from them to produce plans, the sad thing being of course that they’re being blamed and slated for this even though it’s not the planners fault

Can I just say to all those drivers, driving instructors, crew planners, train planners, depot staff and front-line platform staff, I as a commuter really do appreciate what you are doing to try to keep the show on the road. It must be unimaginable the complexity of this ever changing feast even with the aid of modern technology, trying to marry untrained or route approved staff with inadequate stock resources and a timetable which aims to deliver improvement over such a wide area. I always think when complaining about the reliability of the service not to blame these guys and girls who quite frankly do their all.

It is unfortunately now common practice in many transport organisations that the senior management become remote from reality. They surround themselves with middle management (some of who have little operational expertise) and a PR machine which knows even less of the organisation with the remit they 'manage' the media and customer expectations so as to cover up ineptitude and feed their customers with half truth propaganda, with 'exciting' and 'positive' clap-trap.
I listened to the American voice announcing Railplan 2020 enhancements to services, trains, seats and journeys.
1. The extra seats weren't reality as the 8-car units were inadequate for many services.
2. I remember looking at those long suffering commuters thinking do they really want to go from Peterborough to Horsham* or merely get to/from London. * insert here any similar 'exciting' destination.
3. What I didn't appreciate was the operational organisation wasn't ready to deliver the top management 'dream'.

If the cross-London Thameslink service had been additional to the existing GN and Southern/Southeastern services then perhaps it would have worked, as people would be able to use alternative services. But instead they have gone for whole scale replacement with a service that cannot deliver.

Style over substance doesn't run a reliable train service.

 

[Fred26]

This statement on rail plan 2020 is deliberately trying to mislead.

Yes as others have said they have engineering work this weekend. Early morning/ late evening.



If you look at a journey planner right now you have no clue that is / isn’t running.

Some stations have been told to remove the engineering poster too, obviously to hide that there isn't any.
They lie to staff too - a pathetic example from Thursday is the weekly staff newsletter. This week there are a dozen 'quotes' from passengers posted on Twitter. All of which are massively positive about the new timetable. Sickening that they expect us to believe this rubbish.

 

[87015]

But GTRs train planning has been in this way for years. Industry deadlines missed again and again with all the knocks on that leaves to. They havent reliably been at T-18 for donkeys, missed the current recovery plan before it had even started etc etc. Hardly says “we really tried, were ready and just got caught out” when there is always a vacancy gap and show little interest in retaining good staff.

Not to mention GTR choosing now to have forced in new planning software untried and untested which is just throwing more fuel on the fire.

Still just blame MK, its what the media say you must do...

 

[Fred26]

If the cross-London Thameslink service had been additional to the existing GN and Southern/Southeastern services then perhaps it would have worked, as people would be able to use alternative services. But instead they have gone for whole scale replacement with a service that cannot deliver.

Style over substance doesn't run a reliable train service.

Of course, that would be good, but that isn't the point of Thameslink. I know it's painted as new destinations, but the reality is it was done to increase capacity at KGX for extra IC services. (Also to ease people flooding the tube at KGX). Crossrail is being opened for the same reason.
Nothing wrong with that, of course. Long-term whoever is in charge will have to make it work.

 

[JonathanH]

I wish people would get over this 'who wants to go to Peterborough' nonsense.

The fact is that people do want to travel across London. People want to get from Arlesey to London Bridge, people want to get from Redhill to Farringdon, people want to get from Horley or East Croydon to Welwyn Garden City with a change at Finsbury Park. That is what Thameslink should be doing.

In concept it is great. Delivery has been poor but that is in real danger of making people point the problem at the ultimate destination rather than the intermediate opportunities.

 

[telstarbox]

Yes - haven't seen similar comments re Crossrail like "who wants to go from Acton to Abbey Wood".

The areas for employment and leisure destinations in Central London are expanding - lots of new offices around London Bridge, Kings Cross etc so it's good to have direct services across the core from both sides. Not all Home Counties commuters head to the Square Mile any more!

 

[jayah]

Can I just say to all those drivers, driving instructors, crew planners, train planners, depot staff and front-line platform staff, I as a commuter really do appreciate what you are doing to try to keep the show on the road. It must be unimaginable the complexity of this ever changing feast even with the aid of modern technology, trying to marry untrained or route approved staff with inadequate stock resources and a timetable which aims to deliver improvement over such a wide area. I always think when complaining about the reliability of the service not to blame these guys and girls who quite frankly do their all.

It is unfortunately now common practice in many transport organisations that the senior management become remote from reality. They surround themselves with middle management (some of who have little operational expertise) and a PR machine which knows even less of the organisation with the remit they 'manage' the media and customer expectations so as to cover up ineptitude and feed their customers with half truth propaganda, with 'exciting' and 'positive' clap-trap.
I listened to the American voice announcing Railplan 2020 enhancements to services, trains, seats and journeys.
1. The extra seats weren't reality as the 8-car units were inadequate for many services.
2. I remember looking at those long suffering commuters thinking do they really want to go from Peterborough to Horsham* or merely get to/from London. * insert here any similar 'exciting' destination.
3. What I didn't appreciate was the operational organisation wasn't ready to deliver the top management 'dream'.

If the cross-London Thameslink service had been additional to the existing GN and Southern/Southeastern services then perhaps it would have worked, as people would be able to use alternative services. But instead they have gone for whole scale replacement with a service that cannot deliver.

Style over substance doesn't run a reliable train service.

The idea that yesterday Peterborough drivers went to Kings Cross and tomorrow their trains go to Horsham is pretty basic. Either they need to change crews somewhere near the core, or Peterborough need to double their route knowledge.

How did the great management brains manage to get it so wrong? It's not like Thameslink 2000 isn't nearly 20 years late but the problem hasn't changed at all.

 

[urpert]

It does sound extremely dubious. Is this the first anyone’s heard of any engineering works for this weekend?

With the rest of Thameslink seemingly running, any engineering work would presumably be the Canal tunnels. Strange how two brand new tunnels suddenly would need a bank holiday closure especially when they’ve sat unused for years.

Can anyone elaborate on what these mysterious engineering works actually are?

It does seem like someone knows the weekend will be another meltdown, and they don’t want the added fiasco of families ending up in Brighton with no return service, bearing in mind the GTR shambles on the last bank holiday if my memory is right!

Deckchairs being rearranged springs to mind...

The long-term GN service should be hourly Peterborough/Horsham and Peterborough/ KX, hourly Cambridge/Brighton and Cambridge/KX. That would please everyone, and I’m sure that’s what will eventually be seen - hopefully with 365s on the KX services!

There is engineering work on the Catford Loop this weekend meaning Sevenoaks services are diverted via Penge East and terminating at Blackfriars, but clearly that shouldn’t affect the core.

 

[Bishopstone]

Services cut right back today south of the river via East Croydon.

Half hourly Bedford to Brighton

Hourly Redhill to Horsham

Fortunately Southeastern running Charing Cross to Hastings via Redhill

So even the Emergency Timetable loaded to the website yesterday afternoon, and still up, is wrong.

The PDF says London Bridge - Horsham, rather than a truncated Redhill - Horsham service. Maybe the need to fit around the Southeastern diverted paths had been overlooked?

 

[Antman]

I wish people would get over this 'who wants to go to Peterborough' nonsense.

The fact is that people do want to travel across London. People want to get from Arlesey to London Bridge, people want to get from Redhill to Farringdon, people want to get from Horley or East Croydon to Welwyn Garden City with a change at Finsbury Park. That is what Thameslink should be doing.

In concept it is great. Delivery has been poor but that is in real danger of making people point the problem at the ultimate destination rather than the intermediate opportunities.

I totally agree, just the other day I overheard a lady travelling from Merstham to Lincoln who was delighted to change at Peterborough and avoid Central London and it will certainly make a lot of cross London journeys a whole lot easier.

 

[Failed Unit]

Some stations have been told to remove the engineering poster too, obviously to hide that there isn't any.
They lie to staff too - a pathetic example from Thursday is the weekly staff newsletter. This week there are a dozen 'quotes' from passengers posted on Twitter. All of which are massively positive about the new timetable. Sickening that they expect us to believe this rubbish.

It does show a really bad neglect in duty of care to staff members like yourself. They are misleading passengers and Charles Horton is sat in his office thinking he is doing a wonderful job. Meanwhile anyone that interfaces with the customer is getting the passengers frustration. I really feel for the front line staff.

Also hate the way they are doing everything possible to deflect the situation by blaming network rail / rmt / aslef.

I hope the truth is exposed.

 

[Kanrakuq]

The one day it worked in the mornings last week, my wife thinks she saved 15 minutes on her commute because she didn't have to tube it from Kings Cross. She's happy with that and wants it to stay. We also think it'll be easier to get to Heathrow now. Earlier this year, with two 30kg suitcases, two carry on bags, one fold-up pushchair and one three year old, the walk from the train to the Kings Cross tube, then the crowded tube to Paddington, the massive walk from there to the Heathrow Express platform, we still get cold sweats; it'll be so much easier to just get one train from here, change at Farringdon, I assume in a somewhat easier manner than Paddington, and then Crossrail to Heathrow. Not to mention we now have a direct service to Gatwick too, etc.

So it's fine, it seems a good idea and everything, and I can see the aims, but they're just completely inept to launch it now.

 

[hwl]

I would have thought that such position required someone with a maths PhD (or equivalent) - it is essentially a complex mathematical problem to which the optimum solution must be found. But they're surely losing so much money through present inefficiencies that doubling or trebling planners' wages wouldn't really compare.

GTR pay for the train planners wages - DfT see the revenue impact in this case

 

[Bishopstone]

On the GN side, there appear to be many cancellations against the Emergency Timetable.

On the Brighton Main Line, too, some of the remaining Brighton-Bedford services are cancelled. Unfortunate, on a sunny Bank Holiday Saturday, where no ticket acceptance is in place with Gatwick Express, leaving a meagre selection of trains to the coast.

 

[MikeWM]

The ‘emergency’/‘engineering’ timetable doesn’t appear to be helping much. Looks like nothing but the fasts ran from Cambridge to Kings Cross between 0629 and 0927 - 5 semi-fasts/stoppers in a row cancelled!

Currently on the 0947 Ely-KingsX. With the 0954 semi-fast cancelled as well, I think this is about to get a bit cosy at Cambridge... :/

 

[DaveN]

Of course, that would be good, but that isn't the point of Thameslink. I know it's painted as new destinations, but the reality is it was done to increase capacity at KGX for extra IC services. .

The way I look at it, the Thameslink Programme is really about being able to run more 12 carriage trains but 'only' building/rebuilding St Pancras Lowlevel, Farringdon, Blackfriars and London Bridge in central London.
So for the MML extras at peak time instead of those terminating at Moorgate, Elephant or Beckenham Junction we've ended up with Rainham, East Grinstead and Littlehampton! It has added extra tracks between St Pancras and the GN line and around London Bridge but it has resulted in fewer terminating platforms at Blackfriars, London Bridge and Moorgate (and Kings Cross too, when the re-signalling plans go ahead there) and fewer trains being able to use Cannon Street.

 

[DaveN]

Even before the timetable change, GTR have been using engineering works as an excuse for not running the full timetable between Bedford and London on Sundays. So if there are 2 tracks closed between East Croydon and Gatwick, if that happens on a Saturday, they'll run 2tph to Brighton and 2tph to City Thameslink. On a Sunday that would 2tph to Brighton.

 

[MikeWM]

Currently on the 0947 Ely-KingsX. With the 0954 semi-fast cancelled as well, I think this is about to get a bit cosy at Cambridge... :/

Chaotic scenes at Cambridge, people running in all directions to try to get on this train, which is now very cosy indeed. Fortunately I have a seat...

This is truly ridiculous though. If they can’t even operate an emergency timetable (based on outright lies!), something has to give soon.

 

[Ianno87]

Yes - haven't seen similar comments re Crossrail like "who wants to go from Acton to Abbey Wood".

The areas for employment and leisure destinations in Central London are expanding - lots of new offices around London Bridge, Kings Cross etc so it's good to have direct services across the core from both sides. Not all Home Counties commuters head to the Square Mile any more!

Agree. On the two Cambridge-Brighton peak trains I got this week, easily one third of the passengers (probably a little higher in fact) who were on the train at Finsbury Park remained on after St Pancras. Most no further than Blackfriars, but a few stragglers (including myself) to London Bridge (which you'd expect as a link only newly reinstated).

It's a fallacy to pretend that no passengers benefit from cross-London running, who are, as always, the least vocal in being the biggest beneficiaries.

 

[Ianno87]

Chaotic scenes at Cambridge, people running in all directions to try to get on this train, which is now indeed very cosy indeed. Fortunately I have a seat...

This is truly ridiculous though. If they can’t even operate an emergency timetable (based on outright lies!), something has to give soon.

That's been normal for the 1015 Saturday departure from Cambridge for years. Nothing to do with this timetable.

 

[MarkieMark1992]

Services cut right back today south of the river via East Croydon.

Half hourly Bedford to Brighton

Hourly Redhill to Horsham

Fortunately Southeastern running Charing Cross to Hastings via Redhill

Is this one of the first times in years that Southeastern has ran via Redhill?

 

[physics34]

Advert a few months back for a train planning assistant based in London was advertised with a salary of £20-22K.
Pretty poor for a job in Central London.
Another 'exciting' opportunity to join their PR team was advertised without mention of salary to drive through the 2020 vision.

I remember thinking at the time what an awful organization GTR must be given they appear to value propaganda merchants more highly than valuable operational expertise.

Rather like the humble German foot soldier caught up in the Josef Geobbels fiction which thankfully led to the demise of the propaganda machine. Half truths and manipulation of the facts is what these people live on.
The rest of us simply want a train to get us to work on time. Come the revolution justice will prevail.

Over the last few years theyve let highly experienced Control staff and Training Staff jump ship without trying to tempt them to stay. Theyd rather listen to 200 quid an hour consultants and computer 'models'.

 

[MikeWM]

That's been normal for the 1015 Saturday departure from Cambridge for years. Nothing to do with this timetable.

I’ve been getting the 1015 a handful of times every year for at least the past 10 years. Yes, it is a busy train. But I’ve never seen it remotely as packed solid as it is right now. Maybe the bank holiday has something to do with it, but the cancellation of the 0954 seems likely to have had some effect too...

 

[Roy Badami]

Hmm, so we seem to have trains from the emergency timetable that are running fine that aren't even showing up in the NR journey planner (e.g. the 0942 from KGX to KLN arrived right time at CBG according to RTT, but the journey planner knows nothing of this service).

On the other hand the journey planner has trains showing up as cancelled which aren't even in today's timetable! e.g. the journey planner shows that the 0951 from KGX to CMB was cancelled - when that train doesn't even appear in today's timetable (or in RTT).

I realise that it's probably an unavoidable consequence of changing the timetable so late in the day, but it's rather unfortunate.

EDIT: Although a quick glance at the subsequent trains in the journey planner shows that they do correspond to the emergency timetable. So maybe it's been updated now. But still, I think the moral for those travelling today is to take the data on the journey planner with a pinch of salt. Certainly consult the PDFs too.

 

[Antman]

Is this one of the first times in years that Southeastern has ran via Redhill?

It happens regularly when there is engineering work between Tonbridge and London.

 

[physics34]

The idea that yesterday Peterborough drivers went to Kings Cross and tomorrow their trains go to Horsham is pretty basic. Either they need to change crews somewhere near the core, or Peterborough need to double their route knowledge.

How did the great management brains manage to get it so wrong? It's not like Thameslink 2000 isn't nearly 20 years late but the problem hasn't changed at all.

Ironically all of us staff 'on the ground' knew it would go wrong.

It stinks really of the DfT pushing something through that nobody was ready for. Why they are not 'ready' after having 4 years to plan this is another question!

 

[Megafuss]

Chaotic scenes at Cambridge, people running in all directions to try to get on this train, which is now very cosy indeed. Fortunately I have a seat...

This is truly ridiculous though. If they can’t even operate an emergency timetable (based on outright lies!), something has to give soon.

Genuinely been getting Greater Anglia Only tickets between Cambridge and London, I don't mind the extra 20 odd minutes.

Only way GTR (ergo DaFT) will get the point is if revenue drops.