Northern's Problems in the North West

[driver_m]

Meanwhile, as this topic descends into yet another thread of drooling right wingers salivating at the prospect of us losing our jobs so that the wealth can be redistributed back to the top of the chain, the management of this company keep going with their appalling running of the company..Trains still getting cancelled and the people paying for it all being treated with thinly disguised contempt by the govt, the TOC and even the National Media not going at it like they would if it was down south.

 

[Red Devil]

I would agree with the post above. The rail unions have rightly looked after their members very well, that is their job.

BUT, the issue is that you can bet your bottom dollar that the Tories are looking at clipping the wings of the rail unions by legislation. Basically, be careful how far you push things. Drivers and Guards on 35-hour / 4-day weeks are something that many are envious of but trying to push things further. Just be thankful that the likes of Brexit are distracting the Government from such things at the moment.

I'd agree that workers in the public sector are industrially weak. There are reasons for this though. Are doctors/nurses going to let patients suffer/die? Are teachers going to let children fail? Are the police going to let crime get worse? There is some emotional blackmail here which of course is exploited by Governments. The rail unions do not have the same dilemmas.

The Tories have been in since 2010 do you think if they could bring the legislation in to curb the unions they would have done so by now?
As I've tried to make the point, this situation is nothing to do with any dispute by ASLEF or work to rule etc. It's a company problem.
Hypothetically if for example we had RDW in and no one worked them the situation would be as it is now. Then who would you blame?

 

[Moonshot]

The Tories have been in since 2010 do you think if they could bring the legislation in to curb the unions they would have done so by now?
As I've tried to make the point, this situation is nothing to do with any dispute by ASLEF or work to rule etc. It's a company problem.
Hypothetically if for example we had RDW in and no one worked them the situation would be as it is now. Then who would you blame?

If we had RDW, I can absolutely guarantee you there would be plenty wanting to work for £300 a shift.

 

[Red Devil]

If we had RDW, I can absolutely guarantee you there would be plenty wanting to work for £300 a shift.

As I said. Hypothetically.

 

[muz379]

If we had RDW, I can absolutely guarantee you there would be plenty wanting to work for £300 a shift.

But there has been and always will be troughs and peaks in the availability of drivers who are willing to do RDW . Take summer for example , or the world cup ? Saturdays are always another one . I remember times even when there was a RDW agreement that the rosters still had duties uncovered .

There are those drivers who never work any rest days of which there are many . There are those who will work them when it suits which the majority fit into . And there are those that will grab everyone they can .

 

[muz379]

Re that strong unionisation, if you're already on a handsome wage with good working conditions, but then what is there to argue over?

Harmonization talks have been a big one recently .

Besides once you have fought to get those good pay and conditions , there is still a need to fight to keep them , resist giving terms away in return for no compensation .

 

[jayah]

Actually ASLEF represents roughly 98% of drivers. Your remarks on our wages and what we do for them have little relevance in this issue. What you're trying to do is to make this issue all the fault of ASLEF when it is entirely a management issue. ASLEF have been available for discussion over a RDW agreement and Sunday's inside the working week. For the former they've not been approached with any intent and the latter,the company said they couldn't afford it.
I won't bother going into fatigue and complacency issues of working every rest day, that's been covered by fellow drivers on here.
What I will say is you struggle to hide your envy of our terms and conditions but it's typical of someone who wants a race to the bottom. I'm fed up of people saying we get more than nurses, teachers and police constables. Yes we do and I'm appalled at that fact as well but this is were strong unionisation gets you. A decent pay and good terms and conditions, it should be the goal of every worker not just the bosses who are quite happy to feather their nests while their workers toil under zero hours contracts for a minimum wage.

For what it's worth I am not envious of your pay, or hours and without doubt it is a responsible job.

But a fair days pay means a fair days work and having a 4 day week of 35hr and then 7hr training turns potentially bringing it down to 28hr isn't something that should exist, especially given the huge subsidy Northern receives to pay for all this.

Are you able to source your 98%? I would have though at least 2% were in the RMT, let alone none of the above.

 

[Moonshot]

But there has been and always will be troughs and peaks in the availability of drivers who are willing to do RDW . Take summer for example , or the world cup ? Saturdays are always another one . I remember times even when there was a RDW agreement that the rosters still had duties uncovered .

There are those drivers who never work any rest days of which there are many . There are those who will work them when it suits which the majority fit into . And there are those that will grab everyone they can .

Which makes you wonder why it is necessary to have a rest day agreement at all? As has been pointed out earlier, it's unusual to say the least, and if I was to make it really simple , normal hours pays £30 per hour for drivers, and overtime should be time and a half.

 

[Red Devil]

For what it's worth I am not envious of your pay, or hours and without doubt it is a responsible job.

But a fair days pay means a fair days work and having a 4 day week of 35hr and then 7hr training turns potentially bringing it down to 28hr isn't something that should exist, especially given the huge subsidy Northern receives to pay for all this.

Are you able to source your 98%? I would have though at least 2% were in the RMT, let alone none of the above.

ASLEF website will tell you all you need to know about driver numbers.
I'd love to know what qualifies you to say what is a fair days pay for a fair days work other than your opinion.
I think some barristers,some CEO's and some city traders get paid exorbitantly but it is what it is.
But instead of knocking us come and join us, we've vacancies at our place.

 

[Red Devil]

That will be last I say on justifying my pay and conditions especially to someone who hasn't a clue as to what I do.

 

[B&I]

Meanwhile, as this topic descends into yet another thread of drooling right wingers salivating at the prospect of us losing our jobs so that the wealth can be redistributed back to the top of the chain, the management of this company keep going with their appalling running of the company..Trains still getting cancelled and the people paying for it all being treated with thinly disguised contempt by the govt, the TOC and even the National Media not going at it like they would if it was down south.

Precisely. The only thing rightists can be enjoying about this scenario is the misery thier perceived inferiors are going through, as this is hardly an advertisement for tue wonderfulness of the privatised free market (despite some of the madder efforts on here to blame all of this on a union conspiracy).

 

[Moonshot]

Precisely. The only thing rightists can be enjoying about this scenario is the misery thier perceived inferiors are going through, as this is hardly an advertisement for tue wonderfulness of the privatised free market (despite some of the madder efforts on here to blame all of this on a union conspiracy).

Except that if we had been in the days of British Rail and this big project was happening, exactly the same thing would have happened. And drivers and guards would not have been getting the same rate of pay as they do currently.

 

[B&I]

Re that strong unionisation, if you're already on a handsome wage with good working conditions, but then what is there to argue over?

By most peoples' standards, Train Drivers are considered to be on "fat cat" wages already so it's very difficult for people at large to empathise or show solidarity when train strikes and disruption put their own (much crappier) jobs at risk.

Drivers didn't get high wages and reasonable working levels by being pushovers, but then neither have bosses who feather their own nests while their workers struggle. To your passengers in those circumstances, there is only a thin sheet of paper between those.

There's compromise in everything and as I said on either this or another thread, if railway staff aren't careful they're going to price themselves out of jobs, with people at large then being only be too happy to see it happen. If you set up an adversarial position, then there is opposition to that. Are you going to win? I think there is a question here as to what "strong unionisation" should mean or aim to achieve, how, and for who.

It is a pity that so much of the population is vulnerable to divide and rule tactics, instead of most of the population recognising that a tiny minority are enriching themselves at the expense of everyone else

 

[PR1Berske]

It is a pity that so much of the population is vulnerable to divide and rule tactics, instead of most of the population recognising that a tiny minority are enriching themselves at the expense of everyone else

Such as Trade Union leaders, for example.

 

[Polarbear]

Such as Trade Union leaders, for example.

I would suggest that there are many other contenders than union leaders who are "enriching" themselves.

It's true to say that a small number of wealthy people are steadily becoming richer. I would not count TU leaders (or quite frankly, anyone working for, or associated with rail operations), within that number.

 

[Moonshot]

I would suggest that there are many other contenders than union leaders who are "enriching" themselves.

It's true to say that a small number of wealthy people are steadily becoming richer. I would not count TU leaders (or quite frankly, anyone working for, or associated with rail operations), within that number.

You might want to check out the personal history of one Arthur Scargill

 

[jayah]

ASLEF website will tell you all you need to know about driver numbers.
I'd love to know what qualifies you to say what is a fair days pay for a fair days work other than your opinion.
I think some barristers,some CEO's and some city traders get paid exorbitantly but it is what it is.
But instead of knocking us come and join us, we've vacancies at our place.

Even barristers don't charge for work not carried out. 28hr week on a 35hr contract is ridiculous.

I have been on their website but only seen the membership numbers variously stated as 19,500+ and 20,000+. Bear in mind they will have non driving members too, just as the RMT has driving members. 98% sounds implausibly high to me.

 

[RickSanchez]

Back in the real world, the main ASLEF objection to RDW seems to be £££.

If there is a fatigue index then it sounds perfectly straightforward for the company to make sure the shifts worked comply with it without collectively bargaining over the right to work any RD.

So my point stands ASLEF has too much power and also has many of the local politicians in its pocket.

In what way did Northern abuse their very well paid staff by working more than 4 days a week?

You said that Northern had "continually abused" previous agreements. I am asking for more detail on exactly how? Generally speaking, the contracted hours seem very low, the pay very high and there seems little if zero scope for people to be working without earning. If overtime is voluntary, then unless safety is at stake it is hard to see the problem?

I perfectly understand ASLEFs role to its members and that it's members may desire this, or yet power and gold, but it still has got too much power.

Refuse to negotiate or refuse to agree to the unions demands? I find it hard to believe they don't want a deal at all.

For what it's worth I am not envious of your pay, or hours and without doubt it is a responsible job.

But a fair days pay means a fair days work and having a 4 day week of 35hr and then 7hr training turns potentially bringing it down to 28hr isn't something that should exist, especially given the huge subsidy Northern receives to pay for all this.

Are you able to source your 98%? I would have though at least 2% were in the RMT, let alone none of the above.

Even barristers don't charge for work not carried out. 28hr week on a 35hr contract is ridiculous.

I have been on their website but only seen the membership numbers variously stated as 19,500+ and 20,000+. Bear in mind they will have non driving members too, just as the RMT has driving members. 98% sounds implausibly high to me.

You really do seem far too concerned with drivers terms and conditions.

The problems with the implementation and design of the new timetable were not caused by drivers or ASLEF

A robust timetable should not be too tight nor over reliant on overtime.

The timings of services should be realistic, station workings and changing crews should be avoided at through stations if possible

Overuse of units should be avoided to avoid short forming and allow maintenance to be scheduled in

Staff training and extra staff should be anticipated if a service increase is promised

None of this is dictated by either the drivers or ASLEF

 

[underbank]

The Tories have been in since 2010

No they havn't. It was a libdem coalition 2010-2015. Tories have only been in since 2015. Libdems vetoed a lot of Tory policies.

 

[mandub]

Even barristers don't charge for work not carried out. 28hr week on a 35hr contract is ridiculous.

I have been on their website but only seen the membership numbers variously stated as 19,500+ and 20,000+. Bear in mind they will have non driving members too, just as the RMT has driving members. 98% sounds implausibly high to me.

I don't know why this 28hr week is such a thing to you. How often do you think drivers have training days or weeks. At my depot there have been years go by without any training required. There will be training reqd when new routes or traction are introduced, but it's obviously the exception to a standard working week.

On the west drivers have a 35hr week, plus 1 Sunday in 4 added onto this as Sundays are not part of the working week. That averages out to an extra 2hrs a week, so 37hrs overall. What's wrong with that (or indeed with 35hrs for that matter).
ASLEF advise drivers to work these booked additional Sundays if no other driver wishes to do it instead of you.

I've no idea re official ASLEF numbers but again I'm not sure why you're bothered about it. We have literally a handful of RMT drivers at depot and everyone else is ASLEF. As far as I'm aware only drivers can be ASLEF members, I'm not aware locally of anyone from non driver positions being in ASLEF.

 

[jayah]

I don't know why this 28hr week is such a thing to you. How often do you think drivers have training days or weeks. At my depot there have been years go by without any training required. There will be training reqd when new routes or traction are introduced, but it's obviously the exception to a standard working week.

On the west drivers have a 35hr week, plus 1 Sunday in 4 added onto this as Sundays are not part of the working week. That averages out to an extra 2hrs a week, so 37hrs overall. What's wrong with that (or indeed with 35hrs for that matter).
ASLEF advise drivers to work these booked additional Sundays if no other driver wishes to do it instead of you.

I've no idea re official ASLEF numbers but again I'm not sure why you're bothered about it. We have literally a handful of RMT drivers at depot and everyone else is ASLEF. As far as I'm aware only drivers can be ASLEF members, I'm not aware locally of anyone from non driver positions being in ASLEF.

I have no problem with 37 although 35hrs would tax my definition of a full time job. I don't know if you mean the Sundays are part of the basic pay or mandatory paid overtime.

28hr is a big problem and the fact there is a lot of training going on at the moment, which is causing a lot of the problems with trains being cancelled.

I do take issue with the union thinking it has a role to micromanage rostering and fatigue in the guise of negotiating a generous settlement for overtime such as RDW, which again is causing a lot of problems.

 

[mandub]

I have no problem with 37 although 35hrs would tax my definition of a full time job. I don't know if you mean the Sundays are part of the basic pay or mandatory paid overtime.

28hr is a big problem and the fact there is a lot of training going on at the moment, which is causing a lot of the problems with trains being cancelled.

Sunday's are not part of the working week. It's mandatory overtime paid at normal rate.
If you/or the company can get another driver to cover it that's fine and you don't need to come in. But if not ASLEF advise us to work the shift.

 

[Bletchleyite]

35 isn't *that* unusual as full time - that's what 9am to 5pm with an hour's lunch gives you.

Any less definitely isn't full time, I'd say.

 

[RickSanchez]

Why do the hours that are worked by someone else have such a big impact on you?

They are categorically nothing to do with you. They are determined between the company and its staff/representatives

To balance this maybe we should assess your working terms and conditions to see if we think they are a big problem

*Meant FAO Jayah

 

[RickSanchez]

I have no problem with 37 although 35hrs would tax my definition of a full time job. I don't know if you mean the Sundays are part of the basic pay or mandatory paid overtime.

28hr is a big problem and the fact there is a lot of training going on at the moment, which is causing a lot of the problems with trains being cancelled.

I do take issue with the union thinking it has a role to micromanage rostering and fatigue in the guise of negotiating a generous settlement for overtime such as RDW, which again is causing a lot of problems.

The Union don’t micromanage it, thy ensure that the working diagrams presented by the company are legal.

The rostering is devised around these diagrams to ensure adequate rest days, working hours and every diagram is covered on each working day.

I would postulate that is not micromanaging but is operationally essential

 

[GordonT]

Totally insane that a TOC with a press office and a team of highly paid senior managers would appear to have no-one capable of fielding a regional news interview. https://twitter.com/RogerJ_01/status/1002586204297138177

#NorthernRail with a masterclass in crisis management. NWT News Ed: Will someone please come on @BBCNWT live tonight to explain what's happening? Northern Press Office: No NWT News Ed: How about Monday? Northern Press Office: You can ask if you like. But it'll still be no.

 

[The Planner]

Best have a go at NR too then, we are a 35 hour week company.

 

[Loop & Link]

I have a week in the link where I do 26 hours.

I also have a week where I do 59.5 hours (Sun-Sat)

Would you like unload both barrels on me too @jayah for working less than 35 hours in 1 week?

Think you need to look up what an average 35 hour week means and is, because no driver does exactly 8hr45 on a 4 day week. It could be 6hr32 one day and 9hr58 another day.

 

[STANDISH]

According to Look North West this evening somebody from Northern is coming on the programme tomorrow at 18.30pm to be interviewed. We await to see if this happens.

 

[Bertie the bus]

Totally insane that a TOC with a press office and a team of highly paid senior managers would appear to have no-one capable of fielding a regional news interview. https://twitter.com/RogerJ_01/status/1002586204297138177

According to Look North West this evening somebody from Northern is coming on the programme tomorrow at 18.30pm to be interviewed. We await to see if this happens.

We're not going to appear. OK, we'll appear.

A bit like their excuse for cancelling trains. There's a shortage of drivers and it's ASLEF's fault. A few days later - there is no shortage of drivers.

I look forward to watching tomorrow.