Greater Manchester Bus Franchising Assessment

[nerd]

Do the longer journey distances on the busway really overwhelm the drastically higher operating speed though?
I would have thought average journey lengths (in time terms) would have actually fallen

Certainly fallen compared to the previous bus services along the corridor. But still much longer than the average stopping bus trip.Travelling on the current services effectively requires a day ticket; which will set you back around £4.80. So were GM to introduce a flat rate single bus fare across the conurbation of (say) £1.80; there would be a gross loss of revenue per passenger; likely such as render the service unviable.

 

[HSTEd]

I still think a two step system would be viable but still much simpler than the current system.

One flat rate for public transport inside the borough, and a higher rate for a journey that is between boroughs.

 

[WatcherZero]

Those unemployment areas you quote arent comparing like for like, you are comparing rural counties with dense urban areas.

Do the longer journey distances on the busway really overwhelm the drastically higher operating speed though?
I would have thought average journey lengths (in time terms) would have actually fallen

Yeah its an arterial route, there aren't a lot of domestic-domestic journeys that you would normally find in a route looping round housing estates (in fact pretty much all the housing along the route is along the guided section), its userbase is all Salford University, city centre shoppers and city centre workers.

 

[Stan Drews]

Certainly fallen compared to the previous bus services along the corridor. But still much longer than the average stopping bus trip.Travelling on the current services effectively requires a day ticket; which will set you back around £4.80. So were GM to introduce a flat rate single bus fare across the conurbation of (say) £1.80; there would be a gross loss of revenue per passenger; likely such as render the service unviable.

I understood the Vantage service was not currently making a profit, as although passenger numbers are good, the average fare is too low.

 

[Dentonian]

Apologies; checking back I see I misread the numbers for Merseyside. GM bus use declined by 8 per head from 80 to 72.

In general though; the strongest modal competition for stopping bus within Manchester is private car use, especially the large number of very short distance car trips at peak periods. This is the other side of the coin; the dominant dynamic factor in overall transport demand is the rapidly reducing attraction of car use for more affluent and better educated populations. But amongst lower income households (the classic bus user market) the countervailing attraction of car use remains much stronger. Less affluent households who acquire access to a car or van tend then to use it for most of their travel trips.

So Metrolink has been very successful in abstracting from car use in more affluent areas of Greater Manchester ; but car use remains resistant to bus competition in less affluent areas. The question is whether a franchised network (or otherwise re-regulated system) could boost bus use. I take the recent numbers fro Bristol as indicating that this is at least a possibility.

Overall, I agree with all of this. The problem being that private car was virtually the *only* modal competition pre-deregulation AND its time and (variable) cost advantages were much narrower then. The initial failure of Dereg was that the "David's" were driven by revenge against the "Goliath's" they used to work for, and not by growing the industry at the expense of private car use. Although, early morning, late evening, Sunday/PH and many peak only services were butchered overnight, the one saving grace was that it was the better off, high car ownership areas that saw the biggest cuts. You are also right about the less affluent needing to acquire cars/vans because they are more and more constrained in the labour market and indeed accessing health services (partly because they too are being slashed and concentrated in remote (tertiary care) and more affluent (secondary care) locations, as well as the weekly shop. If you are on £7.35 per hour (or whatever NMW is) and possibly zero hours contracts, then if you are forced to shell out a fortune to acquire, tax and insure a car, then you are hardly going to use public transport that is most cases is far more expensive and far slower - if it even runs at the times you need to travel! Digressing slightly; I don't think many people travel by bus for "only two stops", for this reason. Not only that, if they are too lazy, or genuinely unable to walk 500-600 metres along a main road, they are hardly going to walk a slightly shorter distance to the bus stop, when they have a car outside the house.

Whilst, heavy rail abstraction is concentrated on certain journeys due (in practical terms) to its cheaper fares, especially if continuing your journey across Manchester, it is interesting that with all its current problems - and it is Northern operating the competing sectors - there is no evidence that people are ditching the train for bus. There may be many reason's for this, but unfortunately TGW has identified one major, possibly insurmountable problem, and that is (if we dare admit it), Britain remains a class ridden, image worshipping nation and quite frankly if (as one survey suggested a year or two back), 20%+ of people refuse to travel by bus because it is "socially unacceptable" then we deserve all the congestion problems we get.
But yes, Metrolink has become a major threat with Phase III, although the only hope is that KeolisAmey aren't as open about trying to destroy commercial bus services as RATP were. And then there is the growing threat from the new breed of "edge of the law" taxi companies - whether it be the "Gig economy firms like uber and MyTaxi or the "out of towners" licensed by such as Rossendale and Wolverhampton. Further, threats to bus passengers/non motorists are not confined to the "open" market. There are also more subtle and insidious threats from such as the Media; many politicians and the fact that bus passengers are the only group of transport "consumers" with no powerful or influential lobby.

Taking all this into account, alongside the bus industry's own capability for self destruction, the question is if Deregulation is not curtailed, which straw will finally break the camel's back.

The only argument against this on a countywide basis (ie. bus passengers are revenue units, not individual (tax-paying) human beings, is the overall economy and how different areas figure in all these grand strategies like "Spatial Framework". People don't want to live where there are no accessible jobs or services; developers don't want to build in areas people don't want to live in - which incidentally are usually brownfield sites; Public and private sectors won't invest where there is no growth, and of course, these areas are already the poorer ones with low car ownership.

 

[Dentonian]

Having lived in Greater Manchester (twice) and in Bristol, I can assure you that the two cities are quite different in their make up and overall prosperity. The central core of Manchester itself is, of course, buoyant but that isn't reflected in the wider geographic area and nowhere near the prosperity of Bristol. First lowered fares in 2013 in an area where you may think that price elasticity of demand would grow ridership and indeed, there was some growth as First trumpeted of 8%. However, that is nowhere near the figures recorded in Bristol by First (I was going from their figures and it is interesting that they record a lower figure than the ONS's aggregated figures) and so the scope of passenger and revenue growth is restricted. That is partly through wider macro-economic issues (e.g. reduced high street footfall and the cuts to welfare spending).

However, whilst Metrolink has attracted significant car users to move modes, it is a major contributor to abstracting trade from bus services. Using the figures from table 109, bus use grew from 2004/5 to 2008/9 then slumped (height of recession?) but having stabilised during in 2010/1, there was a shock in after 2010/1 (opening into Salford Quays) and after a modest increase into 2012/3, two more years of substantial drops throughout 2013 to 2015 as the various Metrolink extensions into Oldham, Rochdale and Ashton went live.

The private car is the prime competitor (show me a country let alone a city where it isn't) but Bristol doesn't lose bus passengers to other forms of public transport. Therefore, if it's car or public transport, Bristol's buses are often the only show in town.

As regards heavy rail, I don't know how much you'd say it is a competitor in Manchester but certainly, from when I lived in Flixton and Urmston, there were significant numbers of suburban travellers using the rail service and not just in peak. This is helped by the various stations (Oxford Road as well as Picc and Vic) enjoying relatively central locations whereas in Bristol, Temple Meads is peripheral (at best). This is one of the reasons why the bus service between Bristol and Bath runs every 12 mins - yes, you can get the train but do you fancy the 20 min walk into the centre? This is a service that has gone from a 15 min single deck service to a 12 min double deck service in 6 years because it has that USP - one that would be less likely in bus services accessing Manchester city centre.

Could things be done better in Greater Manchester? Undoubtedly yes, and in the case of First, there has been a long history of feast and famine in terms of investment. However, that such increases have been experienced in Bristol (in a non franchised environment) is no guarantee that they can be repeated in a franchised environment in GM, or indeed in Tyne and Wear where the Nexus sums were rather cruelly exposed and that was after they'd had a second chance to get them right!

I think there are a couple of points to raise here. First did indeed lower there fares in 2013, but don't forget they have had a bad reputation virtually since they bought GMBN in 1996. Until 2014, Stagecoach were superior in every way.

Also, the Salford Quays extension would have had virtually no effect on bus patronage, as it was only served by a couple of infrequent, subsidised services before the Tram was extended there. Indeed, Eccles had relatively little effect as it takes a much more circuitous route than the 33 bus so, off peak at least, takes much longer. As you've indicated the real damage from Metrolink has come from Phase III; It has virtually wiped out Arriva in Wythenshawe - I really don't know why the depot is still here! - as well as impacting Stagecoach in the area and Chorlton (where RATP tried - and failed - to get GMITA to promote Tram over Bus) along with Ashton New Road corridor and the 76 route; and First in various localised markets through Oldham and up to Milnrow.

 

[Dentonian]

Certainly fallen compared to the previous bus services along the corridor. But still much longer than the average stopping bus trip.Travelling on the current services effectively requires a day ticket; which will set you back around £4.80. So were GM to introduce a flat rate single bus fare across the conurbation of (say) £1.80; there would be a gross loss of revenue per passenger; likely such as render the service unviable.

This again raises the question of whether buses are a public service, or would GMCA still regard them as a business even with franchising. Notwithstanding, the overall loss (which there undoubtably would be compared to now), £1.80 would be an interesting flat rate for journeys of any length. If you suggested this figure to bus users in east Manchester and the poorer parts of Stockport, Tameside and many other districts, they would think Christmas had come early. Wilmslow Road and Rochdale Road corridor passengers wouldn't be so impressed and Walkden, Swinton and Salford would tell you where to stick it - though not in such polite words. "Problem" being of course, that a drastic reduction in fares on captive market services such as the 203, 347, 409, 471 etc would need additional (or at least re-instated) resources. Hang On, shouldn't that be the intention?

 

[Robertj21a]

This again raises the question of whether buses are a public service, or would GMCA still regard them as a business even with franchising. Notwithstanding, the overall loss (which there undoubtably would be compared to now), £1.80 would be an interesting flat rate for journeys of any length. If you suggested this figure to bus users in east Manchester and the poorer parts of Stockport, Tameside and many other districts, they would think Christmas had come early. Wilmslow Road and Rochdale Road corridor passengers wouldn't be so impressed and Walkden, Swinton and Salford would tell you where to stick it - though not in such polite words. "Problem" being of course, that a drastic reduction in fares on captive market services such as the 203, 347, 409, 471 etc would need additional (or at least re-instated) resources. Hang On, shouldn't that be the intention?

I still don't feel that the local tax payers (particularly those who have cars) are going to accept increased taxation (as there would need to be) in order to support bus services/fares.

 

[158756]

But yes, Metrolink has become a major threat with Phase III, although the only hope is that KeolisAmey aren't as open about trying to destroy commercial bus services as RATP were. And then there is the growing threat from the new breed of "edge of the law" taxi companies - whether it be the "Gig economy firms like uber and MyTaxi or the "out of towners" licensed by such as Rossendale and Wolverhampton.

Taking all this into account, alongside the bus industry's own capability for self destruction, the question is if Deregulation is not curtailed, which straw will finally break the camel's back.

The Trafford Centre Metrolink line will presumably cause a substantial reduction in buses between there and the city centre, maybe also to Eccles, Stretford, Altrincham. Uber or similar services are only going to grow, probably mostly at the expense of public transport. I would also highlight passengers moving to cycling, the costs of the move to electric vehicles and the death of town centres, with collapse in both shopping and employment demand, as other major threats to the future of bus services.

Regulation may improve some things, but it cannot prevent those factors pulling people away from public transport, and if numbers continue to fall, or bounce and then resumes declining, the franchising authority will have to cut it's cloth accordingly, as TfL are now.

 

[PermitToTravel]

I would also highlight passengers moving to cycling

I was speaking to someone at Stagecoach who said that they'd definitely sold notably fewer UniRiders in the academic year starting September 2016, when the Wilmslow Road cycle lane was nearly finished. I'm not sure, but I imagine the trend will have become even more pronounced the subsequent academic year (the one now ending), as freshers will have arrived to the complete cycle lane, after all of the cosmetic improvements

Wilmslow Road is among the start of the road improvements in GM, and as they progress I'm sure there'll be plenty more people making short journeys who'd previously have bought a bus pass choosing instead to buy bikes

 

[daodao]

... I would also highlight passengers moving to cycling, the costs of the move to electric vehicles and the death of town centres, with collapse in both shopping and employment demand, as other major threats to the future of bus services. Regulation may improve some things, but it cannot prevent those factors pulling people away from public transport, and if numbers continue to fall, or bounce and then resumes declining, the franchising authority will have to cut it's cloth accordingly, as TfL are now.

The demise of retail shops on the high street, particularly in larger towns (as distinct from big cities) will have major impact on bus travel to these locations. Closure of key "anchor" department stores has a particularly large effect. For example, the imminent closure of Rackham's in Altrincham sounds the death knell for its town centre. Similar sized satellite towns have already lost such department stores, e.g. Beales have closed their stores in Rochdale (2016) and Bolton (2017). It is unlikely that there will be any M&S stores (other than food outlets) within the Greater M/c boundaries, apart from M/c city centre and the Trafford Centre, by 2022.

 

[Dentonian]

I was speaking to someone at Stagecoach who said that they'd definitely sold notably fewer UniRiders in the academic year starting September 2016, when the Wilmslow Road cycle lane was nearly finished. I'm not sure, but I imagine the trend will have become even more pronounced the subsequent academic year (the one now ending), as freshers will have arrived to the complete cycle lane, after all of the cosmetic improvements

Wilmslow Road is among the start of the road improvements in GM, and as they progress I'm sure there'll be plenty more people making short journeys who'd previously have bought a bus pass choosing instead to buy bikes

Also factor in the reduced numbers of students overall. As for a more widespread increase in cycling, don't assume that the wider public will accept this as witnessed with the Gorton cycle lane. Since that was dug up the general hostility to criminal cycling has grown massively, as has the 'inability to do anything about it.

 

[Dentonian]

I still don't feel that the local tax payers (particularly those who have cars) are going to accept increased taxation (as there would need to be) in order to support bus services/fares.

And therin lies the problem with so called democracy. Local tax payers accept subsidised concessionary fares on rail and Metrolink. And don't get me started on what we "accept" as national taxpayer s.

 

[WatcherZero]

I understood the Vantage service was not currently making a profit, as although passenger numbers are good, the average fare is too low.

Not heard anything like that, passenger numbers have far exceeded even the most optimistic projections and extra buses have had to be procured to add extra peak services to cope with crowding, if First bid for the concession to operate and isn't making money on that then it says a lot about First's management. Some talk recently they are planning to launch one or two additional Vantage services operating over the guided bus infrastructure starting from an undecided point further in to Wigan than the V1/V2 to Salford Royal Hospital and Mediacity.

 

[Dentonian]

Not heard anything like that, passenger numbers have far exceeded even the most optimistic projections and extra buses have had to be procured to add extra peak services to cope with crowding, if First bid for the concession to operate and isn't making money on that then it says a lot about First's management. Some talk recently they are planning to launch one or two additional Vantage services operating over the guided bus infrastructure starting from an undecided point further in to Wigan than the V1/V2 to Salford Royal Hospital and Mediacity.

Salford Royal would certainly make sense given the increased dispersion of health services and the fact that Eccles has no direct public transport to Leigh or Wigan* but why Media City? The clue is in the name; the people who work there don't like buses and the leisure visitors probably wouldn't use it. Why not restore a Wigan & Busway route to Piccadilly eg a V32? As for not making an Operating profit with full buses including a much higher than average proportion being full fare payers on services exceeding an average 12 mph, then what services can make a profit?


*Except Evening/Sundays

 

[WatcherZero]

There are thousands that work there in the leisure and media industries often on very little pay (seriously you know most BBC staff start on minimum wage and have to work years to graduate into better paid jobs?) getting there from the east by public transport is impossible with the exception of changing to a bus at Salford Crescent, if you lived in Wigan and Bolton and wanted to use purely rail you have to go all the way into Manchester City centre then double back half the original distance along the same transport corridor.

 

[Dentonian]

There are thousands that work there in the leisure and media industries often on very little pay (seriously you know most BBC staff start on minimum wage and have to work years to graduate into better paid jobs?) getting there from the east by public transport is impossible with the exception of changing to a bus at Salford Crescent, if you lived in Wigan and Bolton and wanted to use purely rail you have to go all the way into Manchester City centre then double back half the original distance along the same transport corridor.

I didn't realise so many worked there but l do know the BBC in particular hate buses and blame them for all GM's pollution. It could be argued that getting from the East of GM to anywhere is increasingly impossible and I don't understand the relevance of Salford Crescent in this context. Besides the 50 goes from Salford Crescent direct to Salford Quays.

 

[WatcherZero]

Easiest and fastest way to get to Mediacity from the East is to get a train to Salford Crescent then get the 50 bus from there to Mediacity which takes circa 15 minutes.

If the BBC workers and visitors are as bus adverse as you suggest then you have to go all the way to Victoria and then back out on Metrolink which takes roughly 30 minutes longer.

I estimate that at a minimum (starting from Atherton) a direct Vantage bus to the Quays would shorten the circa 70 minute journey time by 20 minutes and by a much greater amount from Leigh (25-35 minutes journey time reduction on the existing journey from Leigh to the Quays) which already requires using the Vantage to Salford Crescent then taking the 50 or walking for 30 minutes.

 

[Dentonian]

Easiest and fastest way to get to Mediacity from the East is to get a train to Salford Crescent then get the 50 bus from there to Mediacity which takes circa 15 minutes.

Ironically, given the book/film was set in Salford; East isn't always East. I assume some of the links from the north east of GM and, yes as far round as Ashton are due to the loop line (the name escapes me) that opened last December, but the Hadfield Line and the HVL all terminate at Piccadilly - just as the City Council forced buses from the same catchment area to do in 1995. Yes, you can change trains at Piccadilly, but given the trains out west go from Platform 14 and HVL (I don't know about Hadfield) punctuality is appalling*, you need to allow 20 minutes transfer time in Piccadilly.

*Nothing to do with current problems, it was bad under Abellio.

 

[WatcherZero]

Sorry, not from the east, travelling east is what I meant.

 

[Stan Drews]

As for not making an Operating profit with full buses including a much higher than average proportion being full fare payers on services exceeding an average 12 mph, then what services can make a profit?

It isn’t the number of passengers that’s the problem, it’s the fact that the average fare is too low, which means that the total revenue is struggling to rise above the operating costs.

 

[158756]

It isn’t the number of passengers that’s the problem, it’s the fact that the average fare is too low, which means that the total revenue is struggling to rise above the operating costs.

I think it'd be pretty surprising if it was making a loss, but I suppose there are probably some characteristics that aren't great for revenue compared to other well used buses - if a higher than usual number are regular travellers on weekly or monthly tickets, paying less than £1.50 per journey for Manchester-Worsley and beyond, with few intermediate journeys (so each seat is only filled once on each bus) and not so much spontaneous travel (paying expensive single or return fares) as there might be for shorter distances.

 

[Dentonian]

I think it'd be pretty surprising if it was making a loss, but I suppose there are probably some characteristics that aren't great for revenue compared to other well used buses - if a higher than usual number are regular travellers on weekly or monthly tickets, paying less than £1.50 per journey for Manchester-Worsley and beyond, with few intermediate journeys (so each seat is only filled once on each bus) and not so much spontaneous travel (paying expensive single or return fares) as there might be for shorter distances.

I get it now. Even though a higher proportion are paying full fare, most will be on the bus for 90 to 100 mins return. Whilst a typical service in east Manchester will see someone paying the same fare but only traveling for 15 to 20 mins.

 

[Stan Drews]

You’ve cracked it lads!
Welcome to the world of bus economics!!

It’s essentially the same argument that has led to some services, well used by ENCTS holders, to be withdrawn as they weren’t actually viable. I don’t think there’s any danger of Vantage being withdrawn, but it highlights the major flaw that a low ‘flat’ fare system can have on longer distance commuter type services. I haven’t checked what the round trip time is for a peak Vantage service, but if you consider the journey against the flow may well be quiet, you could be looking at just one average fare for some seats over a 3+ hour period.

 

[edwin_m]

I think the simple solution is to treat the Vantage and any other busways the same as Metrolink and trains as the GM-wide rapid transit network. All stops would have ticket machines with distance-based ticketing to all destinations via all three modes, probably including a connecting bus journey at the far end if necessary. Street-based buses would then have a flat-fare system for quick boarding. Ideally there would be some means for someone starting a multi-modal journey by bus to get credit for the first leg as a discount on the multi-modal ticket when they get to the interchange - chip tickets could make this possible.

 

[radamfi]

I think the simple solution is to treat the Vantage and any other busways the same as Metrolink and trains as the GM-wide rapid transit network. All stops would have ticket machines with distance-based ticketing to all destinations via all three modes, probably including a connecting bus journey at the far end if necessary. Street-based buses would then have a flat-fare system for quick boarding. Ideally there would be some means for someone starting a multi-modal journey by bus to get credit for the first leg as a discount on the multi-modal ticket when they get to the interchange - chip tickets could make this possible.

Obviously a touch-in touch-out system would be ideal for this. No need for flat fares, you could charge per km like the Dutch system, or according to your entry and exit zones, like the Danish system.

 

[radamfi]

I didn't realise so many worked there but l do know the BBC in particular hate buses and blame them for all GM's pollution.

Do the BBC hate the concept of buses in general or just report on actual events regarding buses or what politicians or organisations have said about buses? If the BBC reports on Andy Burnham talking about franchising because of the problems he sees with the current situation, is that "hating buses"?

As for pollution, it cannot be denied that where there are large number of diesel buses in one area or in a particular corridor, then that will impact on air quality. It is therefore important that buses as well as other vehicles clean up their act in the interests of public health. Britain is particularly impacted compared to other countries because of the volume of buses in major cities. The Netherlands has far fewer buses in their big cities but nevertheless is making serious progress towards removing diesel buses and has already introduced well over 100 electric buses nationwide and that will increase to at least 300 by next year. The Dutch government has announced that there will be no more new diesel buses from 2025 and all diesel buses have to be withdrawn by 2030. Amsterdam is planning to charge buses using overhead power lines when running on the same routes as tram lines.

It is not just anti-regionalism from the BBC, by the way. BBC London News regularly report on poor air quality on certain roads and in certain areas, and the contribution of diesel buses and taxis to this pollution. They have, however, reported on the introduction of electric buses on certain London routes so it isn't all negative reporting.

If you have genuine evidence of unbalanced reporting about buses then you ought to report it.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

The demise of retail shops on the high street, particularly in larger towns (as distinct from big cities) will have major impact on bus travel to these locations. Closure of key "anchor" department stores has a particularly large effect. For example, the imminent closure of Rackham's in Altrincham sounds the death knell for its town centre. Similar sized satellite towns have already lost such department stores, e.g. Beales have closed their stores in Rochdale (2016) and Bolton (2017). It is unlikely that there will be any M&S stores (other than food outlets) within the Greater M/c boundaries, apart from M/c city centre and the Trafford Centre, by 2022.

Absolutely pivotal in terms of the bus industry is the health of the high street. Where you have critical mass, like Manchester city centre or Trafford Centre, there will still be enough to have these anchor stores and so promote shopping trips but not in places like Stockport, Bolton or elsewhere. It is more pronounced in northern England, we have a two speed economy with higher employment and greater economic activity in the south of England and a dying towns and not just in GM but arguably similar places like Rotherham, Doncaster, South Shields and Sunderland, Stockton and Middlesbrough.

Given that the next part of Metrolink is to the Trafford Centre (and so more abstraction from buses on a key corridor), then the scope for increasing bus travel in the same manner as Bristol is even further reduced!

There are thousands that work there in the leisure and media industries often on very little pay (seriously you know most BBC staff start on minimum wage and have to work years to graduate into better paid jobs?) getting there from the east by public transport is impossible with the exception of changing to a bus at Salford Crescent, if you lived in Wigan and Bolton and wanted to use purely rail you have to go all the way into Manchester City centre then double back half the original distance along the same transport corridor.

Again, a really good post. That MediaCity didn't have good transport links didn't mean that people weren't using the bus (and walking further) and that the extension there did have an impact. Also, these media types may be lampooned in programmes like Nathan Barley and W1A but the reality is that they are poorly paid, just out of uni/college and not at all well paid. Given the fact that about 20% of Mon-Fri movements on the Eccles line are to/from MediaCity, it's a pretty important traffic objective!

I didn't realise so many worked there but l do know the BBC in particular hate buses and blame them for all GM's pollution.

I don't think it's something that can just be levelled at the BBC but equally as bad are the MEN and ITV, but mind you, they're often just recycling press releases from various organisations. Sadly, whilst you have strong organisations like the SMMT, AA, FTA, the bus industry just isn't as good at pushing their agenda and redressing the balance.

You’ve cracked it lads!
Welcome to the world of bus economics!!

It’s essentially the same argument that has led to some services, well used by ENCTS holders, to be withdrawn as they weren’t actually viable. I don’t think there’s any danger of Vantage being withdrawn, but it highlights the major flaw that a low ‘flat’ fare system can have on longer distance commuter type services. I haven’t checked what the round trip time is for a peak Vantage service, but if you consider the journey against the flow may well be quiet, you could be looking at just one average fare for some seats over a 3+ hour period.

Spot on Stan and well said. In short, you need to be making c.£30 - 35 per hour (or £400 - 450 per day) so a load of punters sat on a bus for ages for a minimal rate is just not sustainable. As you say, the world of bus economics - it's wonderful

 

[Dentonian]

Do the BBC hate the concept of buses in general or just report on actual events regarding buses or what politicians or organisations have said about buses? If the BBC reports on Andy Burnham talking about franchising because of the problems he sees with the current situation, is that "hating buses"?

As for pollution, it cannot be denied that where there are large number of diesel buses in one area or in a particular corridor, then that will impact on air quality. It is therefore important that buses as well as other vehicles clean up their act in the interests of public health. Britain is particularly impacted compared to other countries because of the volume of buses in major cities. The Netherlands has far fewer buses in their big cities but nevertheless is making serious progress towards removing diesel buses and has already introduced well over 100 electric buses nationwide and that will increase to at least 300 by next year. The Dutch government has announced that there will be no more new diesel buses from 2025 and all diesel buses have to be withdrawn by 2030. Amsterdam is planning to charge buses using overhead power lines when running on the same routes as tram lines.

It is not just anti-regionalism from the BBC, by the way. BBC London News regularly report on poor air quality on certain roads and in certain areas, and the contribution of diesel buses and taxis to this pollution. They have, however, reported on the introduction of electric buses on certain London routes so it isn't all negative reporting.

If you have genuine evidence of unbalanced reporting about buses then you ought to report it.

There are a number of examples of the BBC "targetting" buses, including their so-called "Reality check", which claimed that back in the 1980s - when diesel engines and emissions were far worse than they are now AND there were 50% more buses on Britain's roads - buses were the cause of 10% of road based pollution. Today, with far more cars on the road; far less buses and Euro6s emitting as little as 3% of NoX/PM10s as their 1960s equivalents - buses supposedly cause 16% of road based pollution. They have never blamed taxis, good vehicles or (of course) 30 year old diesel trains for any of the North West's pollution problems.
More recently, a detailed report came out covering the worst 10 pollution "hot spots" in GM (and similarly in other conurbations), with the BBC simply ignoring the facts. Granada Reports (and even, iirc, the MEN) identified these 10 locations, and with exception of Princess Road through Moss Side, all 10 were served by 4 or less buses (each way) per peak hour. Indeed, most were on the M60, where virtually no buses run!
Its all very well going on about electric buses in the Netherlands or biogas buses in Sweden, but who's going to pay for them?

If the BBC reports on Andy Burnham's plans (or more accurately GMCA's recommendations) I will watch with great interest, but AFAIK other than during and immediately after the Mayoral Election period, neither the BBC nor Granada have mentioned the subject. The MEN has raised it on more than one occasion, but nothing on TV. TBF, there isn't anything to report and, I suspect, irony of ironies, the current Northern Fail situation will be used as an excuse to delay it.

 

[radamfi]

There are a number of examples of the BBC "targetting" buses, including their so-called "Reality check", which claimed that back in the 1980s - when diesel engines and emissions were far worse than they are now AND there were 50% more buses on Britain's roads - buses were the cause of 10% of road based pollution. Today, with far more cars on the road; far less buses and Euro6s emitting as little as 3% of NoX/PM10s as their 1960s equivalents - buses supposedly cause 16% of road based pollution.

The issue is that cars mostly use petrol and buses use diesel. In the 80s we still had leaded petrol. Petrol is not great for CO2 emissions but is significantly better than diesel for air quality. So I can believe that as a proportion buses will be more polluting than in the 80s, certainly for the types of pollution that affect local air quality.

Its all very well going on about electric buses in the Netherlands or biogas buses in Sweden, but who's going to pay for them?

It has to be done one way or another. If electric cars become standard in a few years but buses continue to be mostly diesel run then, rightly or wrongly, the bus will have no credibility as a green form of transport.