Where would you like to see Crossrail 3 go?

[swt_passenger]

Is the bank end of the Waterloo and City line able to extend?

Not without massive changes to all the other existing interchange infrastructure between Central and Northern Lines. The existing trains are too short compared to any other service such as the existing DLR, and the Waterloo end cannot be extended and is also at completely the wrong angle for a useful extension to anywhere.

No-one will be assuming extensions of the W&C, you can bet your house on that.

 

[si404]

The am-peak crowding in London, post-XR2, is (according to the Mayor's Transport Strategy). This would provide some dots to join that actually need joining, rather than just picking stub ends or 'well this direction has nothing'.

>5 standees/m^2:

• Central Line w/b: Leyton -> Bank
• District Line e/b: Fulham Broadway -> Earls Court; Sloane Square -> Westminster
• Elizabeth Line e/b: west of West Drayton -> Hayes & Harlington
• Hammersmith & City Line w/b: Aldgate East -> Liverpool Street
• Jubilee Line e/b: London Bridge -> Canary Wharf
• Metropolitan Line s/b: Amersham -> Chalfont & Latimer; Baker Street -> Great Portland Street
• Northern Line n/b: Clapham North -> Stockwell; London Bridge -> Moorgate
• Northern Line s/b: Kings Cross St Pancras -> Old Street
• Overground w/b: Stratford -> Canonbury
• Victoria Line s/b: Finsbury Park - Oxford Circus
• Victoria Line n/b: Victoria - Oxford Circus

>4 standees/m^2:

• Central Line w/b: Snaresbrook -> St Pauls
• District Line e/b: Parsons Green -> Westminster
• District Line w/b: Plaistow -> West Ham; Bromley-by-Bow -> Mile End
• Elizabeth Line e/b: west of West Drayton -> Hayes & Harlington; Southall -> Old Oak Common
• Elizabeth Line w/b: Stratford -> Whitechapel
• Hammersmith & City Line w/b: Aldgate East -> Liverpool Street
• Jubilee Line e/b: Waterloo -> Canary Wharf
• Jubilee Line w/b: Waterloo -> Westminster
• Metropolitan Line s/b: Amersham -> Chalfont & Latimer; Chorleywood -> Moor Park; Baker Street -> Farringdon
• National Rail s/b: Amersham -> Harrow-on-the-Hill
• Northern Line n/b: Clapham South -> Moorgate
• Northern Line s/b: Chalk Farm / Archway -> Moorgate
• Overground w/b: Stratford -> Canonbury; Highbury & Islington -> Caledonian Road & Barnsbury
• Overground e/b: Clapham Junction -> Imperial Wharf
• Piccadilly Line s/b: Caledonian Road -> Kings Cross St Pancras
• Victoria Line s/b: Finsbury Park - Oxford Circus
• Victoria Line n/b: Victoria - Oxford Circus

The key capacity gaps are thus, as follows (clockwise from north)

Northern line in inner north London to The City
Finsbury Park to West End
local westwards away from Stratford
in from Stratford (and to a lesser extent a bit further south)
along the South Bank to Docklands
Northern line into The City
Clapham Junction to Fulham
Fulham to Westminster
Victoria to West End
GWML inners
Met Main/via Am Chiltern services
Met into The City

Obviously don't try and join all the dots

 

[61653 HTAFC]

You'd be banned from London Reconnections if you suggested that!

Extending the NCL south has been looked at, not least by the Edwardians who actually started building it before the cash ran out when it was realised that the NCL itself wouldn't make money (and it didn't).

Not possible now of course, as the Crossrail tunnels are right behind the bufferstops. Therefore it needs new tunnels, which have to be underneath the Northern line, all the way back from north of Old St.

If we're in Crayola country, the CR1 tunnels being right beyond the bufferstops at Moorgate needn't be a show-stopper: just means you need to leave the existing NCL alignment sooner, and build replacement platforms for Moorgate at a deeper level.

 

[Helvellyn]

My suggestion would be Marylebone to Fenchurch Street.

Neither have great Underground connections and essentially linking the Chiltern suburban services with the London-Tilbury-Southend route would help give those two routes greater connections into and through London.

On the Chiltern side you could even possibly look at including the Met Line services out to Chesham and Amersham plus the Watford services (the more longer distance stuff). Whilst this could be seen as replicating the Baker Street - Aldgate section of the Met you could use the freed up capacity to increase frequency on the Uxbridge services plus extend the Wimbledon - Edgware Road services to run around to Aldgate as well.

 

[Harshil]

Im not sure if I agree with Crossrail serving NW London. Living in NW, we have good connections via the tube. If it were to serve NW London it could potentially take over the WCML to Milton Keynes and potentially the Chiltern Lines as well (including through Sudbury with the longer distance Chilterns diverted to Paddington). Another cool option would be to also take over the Thameslink services to Bedford whilst the Great Northern lines can then all go through the Thameslink core instead.

However I see Crossrail 3 serving SW to SE. Windsor to Dartford with a core through Central London just south of the river. Putney Clapham Junction Battersea Waterloo London Bridge New Cross Lewisham.

 

[HSTEd]

The am-peak crowding in London, post-XR2, is (according to the Mayor's Transport Strategy). This would provide some dots to join that actually need joining, rather than just picking stub ends or 'well this direction has nothing'.

>5 standees/m^2:
Some options
>4 standees/m^2:
Some options
The key capacity gaps are thus, as follows (clockwise from north)

Some options
Obviously don't try and join all the dots

What I'm getting is that people really want to go to Oxford Circus?
Or is it just a convenient interchange?

Divert the Metropolitan line into a new set of tunnels via Oxford Circus, Victoria and Clapham Junction?

 

[cle]

I would say Fenchurch Street to Euston and Marylebone. Intermediate stops at Holborn, City Thameslink/St Pauls and Tower Hill (which by then should be a DLR station too, with Gateway gone).

Continue in tunnel to Canary Wharf (CR1 interchange) and up to West Ham. Limehouse too difficult to get up to.

On the western end, the LM services to Milton Keynes, Northampton and Rugby. Higher frequencies through a Watford rebuild (and St Albans Abbey as an option) - and turning more there. Plus Tring too. Option to take over DC lines from Wembley Central (Bakerloo cut back to Stonebridge Park) - with interchange at Queens Park.

If there was capacity, take over all services to Amersham, Chesham and Aylesbury - with Watford Met back on the table and handling all Met services north of Harrow - and linking back to the other CR3 of course at the Junction! 2tph Chesham, 2tph Amersham and 2tph Aylesbury, the latter two doubled in the peaks.

 

[driver_m]

A continuous looped tunnel circumnavigating Shoreditch and Hoxton, short bit straight down into the magma. Only build entrances. Call it the quinoa line and free entrance for all hipsters and anyone who has never travelled further than zone 4..

 

[si404]

What I'm getting is that people really want to go to Oxford Circus?
Or is it just a convenient interchange?

Probably more the former. Thameslink and Tottenham to West End, southern Northern line to West End too.

If you want some office north of Oxford Street, then Oxford Circus is going to be better than TCR, especially if you end up near Cambridge Circus, rather than St Giles Circus, due to what end of the train and which exit you leave!

CR2 has 3-4 standees/m^2 inside the Circle line, but obviously would have more standing space than the Victoria line.

Divert the Metropolitan line into a new set of tunnels via Oxford Circus, Victoria and Clapham Junction?

Not great for the Met towards The City capacity gap, but ticks off some capacity gaps south of Oxford Street. Also sensible to not have Crossrail, rather than LU, just for the sake of it.

 

[swt_passenger]

It’s said that Crossrail 1 didn’t get to call at Oxford Circus because modelling suggested the pavements couldn’t cope with the additional street level movements.

If that is correct then I doubt any other new line will interchange there for the same reason.

 

[HSTEd]

Not great for the Met towards The City capacity gap, but ticks off some capacity gaps south of Oxford Street. Also sensible to not have Crossrail, rather than LU, just for the sake of it.

You could run Oxford Circus - Leicester Square - Embankment - Waterloo - Kennington - Clapham Junction.

Its not too circuitous and you get connections to the city at Waterloo via the W&C that is not one of the few not overloaded lines into the area.
It also allows you to pull a bit of traffic off the southern part of the Northern line before it gets into the centre.

 

[Flinn Reed]

Not without massive changes to all the other existing interchange infrastructure between Central and Northern Lines. The existing trains are too short compared to any other service such as the existing DLR, and the Waterloo end cannot be extended and is also at completely the wrong angle for a useful extension to anywhere.

No-one will be assuming extensions of the W&C, you can bet your house on that.

It may not be practical to extend either end of the W&C line, but a doable alternative that could make the line much more useful could be to introduce an intermediate station.

The distance between Bank and Waterloo is quite long, and tunnels are beneath areas which would be used by both tourists and commuters, as well as for interchange purposes.

Create platforms on the W&C line at Blackfriars (south side). Direct Interchange to ThamesLink, improving connectivity to many destinations. And possibly interchange to the Circle/District lines. Could have entrances at both sides of the river.

Blackfriars south side Thameslink Station currently serves a number of attractions along the river, popular by both Londoners and visitors/tourists. But due to a lack of publicity by TFL on Thameslink, many people tend to use further stations such as Southwark, London Bridge, Waterloo, Mansion House, St Pauls or Blackfriars (Underground).

 

[Ianno87]

It may not be practical to extend either end of the W&C line, but a doable alternative that could make the line much more useful could be to introduce an intermediate station.

The distance between Bank and Waterloo is quite long, and tunnels are beneath areas which would be used by both tourists and commuters, as well as for interchange purposes.

Create platforms on the W&C line at Blackfriars (south side). Direct Interchange to ThamesLink, improving connectivity to many destinations. And possibly interchange to the Circle/District lines. Could have entrances at both sides of the river.

Blackfriars south side Thameslink Station currently serves a number of attractions along the river, popular by both Londoners and visitors/tourists. But due to a lack of publicity by TFL on Thameslink, many people tend to use further stations such as Southwark, London Bridge, Waterloo, Mansion House, St Pauls or Blackfriars (Underground).

Problem with adding an intermediate station on the Drain is that the line is full to bursting already in the peak direction today - couldn't take the demand of an extra station.

Only prospect for such might be after Crossrail 2 when some SW Suburban-City traffic might be diverted via Tottenham Court Rd giving some W&C relief.

 

[swt_passenger]

It may not be practical to extend either end of the W&C line, but a doable alternative that could make the line much more useful could be to introduce an intermediate station.

The distance between Bank and Waterloo is quite long, and tunnels are beneath areas which would be used by both tourists and commuters, as well as for interchange purposes.

Create platforms on the W&C line at Blackfriars (south side). Direct Interchange to ThamesLink, improving connectivity to many destinations. And possibly interchange to the Circle/District lines. Could have entrances at both sides of the river.

Blackfriars south side Thameslink Station currently serves a number of attractions along the river, popular by both Londoners and visitors/tourists. But due to a lack of publicity by TFL on Thameslink, many people tend to use further stations such as Southwark, London Bridge, Waterloo, Mansion House, St Pauls or Blackfriars (Underground).

The Waterloo and City doesn’t run directly. It runs much nearer the north side of Blackfriars, with a sharp curve. So I’d also be surprised (given the gradients to get under the river) if there’s anywhere a station with straight and level platforms could be added.

Anyway they have said before it doesn’t have the passenger capacity to allow an interchange station. The numbers wanting Bank fill it completely.

 

[ijmad]

I think the Shenfield and Abbey Wood branches of Crossrail 1 will be gasping for capacity within a decade. I'd like to see a second east-west route so my suggestion would be to separate the branches so 24tph could be run to both.

Create a new large underground interchange under Limehouse (which would also have interchange with the LTSR and DLR, although more platforms for both might be needed at their level to make that work, but there is probably space at surface level).

The extra trains to Abbey Wood can be extended on to Ebbsfleet/Gravesend and take over more SE Metro paths. Not sure you'd need 24tph all the way to Shenfield, but you apparently need 16tph in the peak right now, so 20tph won't be far fetched in a few years, leaving perhaps a few trains to turn short after Stratford... or send to Meridian Water for a Crossrail 2 interchange?

The new east-west route roughly follows the river, solving some of the capacity problems @si404 mentions, perhaps going:

• London Bridge or Bank-Cannon Street (appreciate the latter might be a tight squeeze)
• London Blackfriars (south bank) (with a second exit likely within a few hundred metres of Waterloo/Waterloo East)
• Charing Cross Embankment (or perhaps Westminster)
• London Victoria (interchange with CR2)
• Earls Court

Now in my own crayonista fantasyland, the new tunnels rise to take over the District Line at West Kensington. Since all District Line trains can now go to Wimbledon, this nearly doubles the capacity for those stations. CR3 trains stop at Hammersmith and Turnham Green (Piccadilly can serve Barons Court, Stamford Brook, Ravenscourt Park and Chiswick Park), before taking over the Richmond branch (8tph), Ealing Broadway branch (4tph) and Uxbridge branch (12tph). All Piccadilly line trains go to Heathrow unlocking considerable extra capacity for local commuters on that branch, and although they're making more stops there are plenty of useful connections and an easy change to fast CR3 trains at Acton Town. Having this new service on the Uxbridge branch creates a more attractive alternative to the Metropolitan Line, meaning Met line trains to Uxbridge can be reduced, adding capacity for Amersham and Watford.

(Back in the real world, I actually wonder if there's much future at all in Ealing Broadway being served by the District Line or hypothetical Piccadilly Line swap given the Crossrail services it's going to get. Perhaps closing that branch entirely and creating an interchange opportunity with the Central Line on the site of Hanger Lane junction would be a better way to go - replace North Ealing and West Acton stations).

 

[si404]

Only prospect for such might be after Crossrail 2 when some SW Suburban-City traffic might be diverted via Tottenham Court Rd giving some W&C relief.

Or, just as likely, though TfL's models pretend it won't happen, via Kennington...

Arguably CR3 ought to be the Victoria - Charing Cross - Ludgate - Cannon Street - Fenchurch Street - Whitechapel corridor with take overs of the Shenfield branch and the SW branches in order to fix some of the mistakes of its predecessors. There's then scope for two branches off the Liz east of Canary Wharf and Stratford, and CR2 can head south to Balham, etc.

 

[ijmad]

Or, just as likely, though TfL's models pretend it won't happen, via Kennington...

Arguably CR3 ought to be the Victoria - Charing Cross - Ludgate - Cannon Street - Fenchurch Street - Whitechapel corridor with take overs of the Shenfield branch and the SW branches in order to fix some of the mistakes of its predecessors. There's then scope for two branches off the Liz east of Canary Wharf and Stratford, and CR2 can head south to Balham, etc.

Very similar to the idea I just posted mere seconds before you!

(Divorced from my fantasy ideas in West London mind... )

 

[si404]

Having this new service on the Uxbridge branch creates a more attractive alternative to the Metropolitan Line, meaning Met line trains to Uxbridge can be reduced, adding capacity for Amersham and Watford.

I'm not sure it would be more attractive enough - after all, it already exists as far as Kensington, in the form of the Piccadilly line! And then there's local services to think about - the Rayner's Lane to Harrow link is fairly important (shuttles to Wembley Park?). That said, 12tph is perhaps excessive even without any intervention (changing the Piccadilly to big trains, Central line serving Ickenham-Uxbridge, etc) and 10tph would be fine, giving 2tph free, which is probably enough to deal with the capacity gap - an extra 2tph is 25% increase.

Using the spare train bought for the cancelled MLX project, one could double the frequency of the Amersham all-stops - Baker Street service by diverting a Watford (which really doesn't need it). But it's fast trains to Aldgate that would need a lift to remove people standing crush-loaded all the way in from zone 9 - so yes, taking 2tph from Uxbridge and making them Amersham fast is probably a very good idea. That said, the 2041 plan had MLX, so it had Rickmansworth served with 6tph stopping (2 from Amersham, 4 beginning there) and 4tph fast, but still had a serious crowding issue.

So we end up with:
12tph Uxbridge - all-stops - Aldgate -> 10tph (-2)
2tph Chesham - fast - Aldgate -> 2tph
2tph Amersham - fast - Aldgate -> 4tph (+2)
2tph Amersham - all-stops - Baker Street -> 4tph (+2)
4tph Rickmansworth - semi-fast - Baker Street -> 4tph
6tph Watford - semi-fast - Baker Street -> 4tph (-2)

But that's penalising GLA voters in Ruislip to give more trains to non-voters who don't pay London taxes. So it won't happen. Fingers crossed for the 10 Watford + 2 Amersham to become 4 Watford + 4 Ricky + 4 Amersham though - that's just messing about with outside-London people's trains!

Similar mucking about (though its probably easier to just have more peak trains) can help fix the same issue of people standing, crush-loaded, from outside the M25 on the Elizabeth line from Bucks.

 

[WideRanger]

My suggestion would be Marylebone to Fenchurch Street.

Neither have great Underground connections and essentially linking the Chiltern suburban services with the London-Tilbury-Southend route would help give those two routes greater connections into and through London.

On the Chiltern side you could even possibly look at including the Met Line services out to Chesham and Amersham plus the Watford services (the more longer distance stuff). Whilst this could be seen as replicating the Baker Street - Aldgate section of the Met you could use the freed up capacity to increase frequency on the Uxbridge services plus extend the Wimbledon - Edgware Road services to run around to Aldgate as well.

Would a route utilising the proposed fleet line alignment from the Fenchurch Street area through to Charing Cross (ex Jubilee), and then Cut and Cover through Green Park and Hyde Park provide a cheapish route through to Marylebone area? This looks attractive to me, but I would be concerned about potential overcapacity in Northwest London overall, but a lack of capacity on the lines south of Neasden.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Easy - Crossrail 3 should be an AC electrified route from both the Amersham and Wycombe routes operated by Chiltern. Express services would route through Old Oak into Paddington; allowing the slower stuff (Aylesbury, Gerrards Cross, Wycombe, Bicester North, Banbury, perhaps also Winslow) to drop down from St Johns Wood / Lords Tunnel underground to Baker Street (Marylebone would be closed), then the trains would stop at Tottenham Court Road, Blackfriars (new platforms on Waterloo & City added), Bank / Monument and rising up out of tunnel near Shadwell.

Fenchurch Street and Marylebone as prime real estate could be re-purposed / built over; and with the conversion of Grays - Upminster and Upminster - Romford into a Tramway system (with a flyover to segregate from other traffic) you could dedicate up to 4tph to the Rainham route, 4tph to Abbey Wood via Barking Riverside and 16tph to Laindon, Basildon, Leigh on Sea, Southend and Shoeburyness. The 4tph from the Gospel Oak to Barking would also operate down towards Grays giving new journey opportunities.

Double-deck stock would be used in 10 carriage, 24 metre formations with wide doors, toilets, First Class etc. all available. Some 5 carriage units would also be used, partnered up in peak where required.

This would make the Chilterns and the Essex Thamesside into prime development land also; and work to give maximum capacity towards a major interchange at Abbey Wood. An underground extension of the Barking Riverside - Abbey Wood line would also include Bexleyheath (station) and an Underground terminus at Bexleyheath Town Centre as the Council there work towards more priority bus routes / trams in the Borough radiating from Bexleyheath.

To achieve a combination of faster and slower commuter services towards Southend, the route would be four-tracked east of Upminster with a 'slow' and 'fast' pair of tracks; the 'slow' pair would be as far as Leigh on Sea with trains via Tilbury also extending this far; the 'fast' pair would enable services from Shoeburyness to run non-stop and more regularly.

Two-tracking of the Stratford-on-Avon route as well as re-modelling at Hatton, Leamington, Princes Risborough and High Wycombe would enable fast services to operate with four-tracking between Moor Street and South Ruislip in any event for the express services from Moor Street to Paddington; creating more paths on the West Coast Main Line.

Indicative peak services [Peak Directions]
2tph Birmingham Moor Street to East London / Essex (Moor Street, Acocks Green, Olton, Solihull, Widney Manor, Dorridge, Warwick Parkway, Warwick, Leamington Spa, Banbury, Bicester North, High Wycombe, Beaconsfield, West Hampstead, Baker Street, Tottenham Court Road, Blackfriars, Bank / Monument, Limehouse, West Ham)

2tph Oxford to East London / Essex (Oxford, Oxford Parkway, Bicester Village, High Wycombe, Beaconsfield, West Hampstead, Baker Street, Tottenham Court Road, Blackfriars, Bank / Monument, Limehouse, West Ham)

2tph Coventry to East London / Essex (Coventry, Kenilworth, Leamington Spa, Banbury, Kings Sutton, Bicester North, Haddenham & Thame, Princes Risborough, West Hampstead, Baker Street, Tottenham Court Road, Blackfriars, Bank / Monument, Limehouse, West Ham)

2tph Stratford on Avon to East London / Essex (Stratford on Avon, Stratford Parkway, Hatton, Warwick Parkway, Warwick, Leamington Spa, Banbury, Bicester North, Haddenham & Thame, Princes Risborough, West Hampstead, Baker Street, Tottenham Court Road, Blackfriars, Bank / Monument, Limehouse, West Ham)

4tph High Wycombe to East London / Essex (Wycombe, Loudwater, Beaconsfield, Seer Green, Gerrards Cross, Denham, South Ruislip, Sudbury Hill, Wembley Stadium, West Hampstead, Baker Street, Tottenham Court Road, Blackfriars, Bank / Monument, Limehouse, West Ham)

4tph Gerrards Cross to East London / Essex (Gerrards Cross, Denham Golf Club, Denham, West Ruislip, South Ruislip, Northolt Park, Sudbury Hill, Harrow Road, Wembley Stadium, West Hampstead, Baker Street, Tottenham Court Road, Blackfriars, Bank / Monument, Limehouse, West Ham)

4tph Aylesbury Vale Parkway to East London / Essex (Aylesbury Vale, Aylesbury, Stoke Mandeville, Wendover, Great Missenden, Amersham, Chalfont, Chorleywood, Rickmansworth, Baker Street, Tottenham Court Road, Blackfriars, Bank / Monument, Limehouse, West Ham)

4tph Aylesbury to East London / Essex (Aylesbury, Great Missenden, Amersham, Chalfont, Rickmansworth, Moor Park, Harrow on the Hill, Baker Street, Tottenham Court Road, Blackfriars, Bank / Monument, Limehouse, West Ham)

And in the other peak direction...

4tph Chiltern Route to Shoeburyness fast (... West Ham, Benfleet, Leigh on Sea, Chalkwell, Westcliff, Southend Central, Southend East, Thorpe Bay and Shoeburyness.)

4tph Chiltern Route to Shoeburyness semi-fast (... West Ham, Basildon, Pitsea, Benfleet, Leigh on Sea, Chalkwell, Westcliff, Southend Central, Southend East, Thorpe Bay and Shoeburyness.)

4tph Chiltern Route to Leigh on Sea via Rainham (... West Ham, Barking, Dagenham Dock, Rainham, Purfleet, Grays, Tilbury Town, East Tilbury, Stanford le Hope, Pitsea, Benfleet, Leigh on Sea.)

4tph Chiltern Route to Leigh on Sea via Basildon (... West Ham, Barking, Upminster, Laindon, Basildon, Pitsea, Benfleet, Leigh on Sea.)

4tph Chiltern Route to Bexleyheath (... West Ham, Barking, Renwick Road, Barking Riverside, Abbey Wood, Bexleyheath and Bexleyheath Town Centre.)

4tph Chiltern Route to Laindon (... West Ham, Barking, Upminster, West Horndon, Laindon.)

(4tph Gospel Oak to a station such as Grays or Stanford le Hope)

Construction of a major new depot would be completed at Shoeburyness with associated Carriage Sidings; along with stabling at East Ham. Smaller depots would be used at Banbury and Aylesbury with stabling at Tyseley and Hinksey.

Drivers based at Moor Street, Banbury, Oxford, Aylesbury and Wembley Stadium would be used in the West and at Barking and Shoeburyness in the East.

10 car trains could be in a mostly suburban layout; with the order of 5 car trains designed with more improved facilities such as on-board vending machines, First Class (i.e. not on 10 car trains) and more toilets; these used on trains to Oxford, Coventry, Stratford and Birmingham; or to Shoeburyness in the east on premier peak trains.

Grade separation and building would be required at Barking; with more turnback facilities / capacity on the District's eastern end to allow more H&C trains to run through.

 

[AndrewE]

Please stop winding us in the rest of the country up! You haven't even got Crossrail 2 yet (but you assume you are going to get it.) Manchester to Leeds is the correct answer.
Contrast that with Westminster's current failure to authorise the second phase of the Manchester upgrade without which the first phase is wasted and is actually making thing worse (platforms 15/16 at Piccadilly for those in the London Bubble who don't know.) Also the silence on a decent upgrade - no, make that modernisation (i.e simply bringing up to date) - of the main Liverpool to Newcastle route which will condemn us to a 3-mile fume filled tunnel for the forseeable future. Would you fancy (or tolerate) the Thameslink core tunnel being diesel worked?
To make it worse, when we talk about HS2 not terminating at Euston but instead being a more useful deep-level through line we are told it is absolutely out of the question, as London is so congested below street level. A fair criticism, except that it ignores the point that a deeper level railway than anything we have now was being suggested... It would have benefitted people travelling from a long distance, but is howled down here by authoritative sources who say it cannot be done. So how do you think you are going to fit your CR3 in? I note that no-one dares tell people proposing London upgrades that it simply can't be done!
Contrast the regional/HS2 discussion with the unlimited optimism about this proposed next phase of "rail" investment - which will solely benefit London commuters, and yet attracts not one breath of realism or even moderate restraint. We are told that trams might have been reintroduced by then to try to help London cope with its congestion and pollution when more rail travellers start being delivered by our present rail upgrades: I suggest that London will be so overcrowded, polluted and congested by then that it might be a victim of its own "success." There might even have been a civil war, or secession by the rest of the country sick and tired of London taking all the plums.

 

[Bald Rick]

It may not be practical to extend either end of the W&C line, but a doable alternative that could make the line much more useful could be to introduce an intermediate station.

The distance between Bank and Waterloo is quite long, and tunnels are beneath areas which would be used by both tourists and commuters, as well as for interchange purposes.

Create platforms on the W&C line at Blackfriars (south side). Direct Interchange to ThamesLink, improving connectivity to many destinations. And possibly interchange to the Circle/District lines. Could have entrances at both sides of the river.

Blackfriars south side Thameslink Station currently serves a number of attractions along the river, popular by both Londoners and visitors/tourists. But due to a lack of publicity by TFL on Thameslink, many people tend to use further stations such as Southwark, London Bridge, Waterloo, Mansion House, St Pauls or Blackfriars (Underground).

As Ianno87 and swt_passenger have pointed out, it’s not easy. Network South East looked at it in the 80s and decided it was a non starter.

I’ll only add that the Drain runs directly under the northern foundations to Blackfriars Bridge, and over the new super sewer (#highspeedpoo) so getting a station in there will be, ahem, challenging.

Besides, it’s only 12 minutes walk from Waterloo to Doggets pub next to Blackfriars south bank, which I would wager is quicker than getting down to the drain, waiting for train, travelling now to said new station, and getting back to surface level on an average day.

 

[Bald Rick]

Please stop winding us in the rest of the country up! You haven't even got Crossrail 2 yet (but you assume you are going to get it.) Manchester to Leeds is the correct answer.
Contrast that with Westminster's current failure to authorise the second phase of the Manchester upgrade without which the first phase is wasted and is actually making thing worse (platforms 15/16 at Piccadilly for those in the London Bubble who don't know.) Also the silence on a decent upgrade - no, make that modernisation (i.e simply bringing up to date) - of the main Liverpool to Newcastle route which will condemn us to a 3-mile fume filled tunnel for the forseeable future. Would you fancy (or tolerate) the Thameslink core tunnel being diesel worked?
To make it worse, when we talk about HS2 not terminating at Euston but instead being a more useful deep-level through line we are told it is absolutely out of the question, as London is so congested below street level. A fair criticism, except that it ignores the point that a deeper level railway than anything we have now was being suggested... It would have benefitted people travelling from a long distance, but is howled down here by authoritative sources who say it cannot be done. So how do you think you are going to fit your CR3 in? I note that no-one dares tell people proposing London upgrades that it simply can't be done!
Contrast the regional/HS2 discussion with the unlimited optimism about this proposed next phase of "rail" investment - which will solely benefit London commuters, and yet attracts not one breath of realism or even moderate restraint. We are told that trams might have been reintroduced by then to try to help London cope with its congestion and pollution when more rail travellers start being delivered by our present rail upgrades: I suggest that London will be so overcrowded, polluted and congested by then that it might be a victim of its own "success." There might even have been a civil war, or secession by the rest of the country sick and tired of London taking all the plums.

Transpennine upgrade is definitely on the cards, and will happen long before Crossrail 2 (if it ever happens)

Crossrail 3 is merely fanciful.

Re the ‘deeper level railway than anything we have now’ - the trouble with that is that there is still a lot of stuff at deeper levels, and more importantly unless said railway is going to go across London without stopping, you have to build a station. And stations need access to ground level, and lots of tunnels to get from ground level to railway level. Through that already congested ground.

Of course anything’s possible, within the laws of physics, but there are consequences.

 

[ijmad]

Re the ‘deeper level railway than anything we have now’ - the trouble with that is that there is still a lot of stuff at deeper levels, and more importantly unless said railway is going to go across London without stopping, you have to build a station. And stations need access to ground level, and lots of tunnels to get from ground level to railway level. Through that already congested ground.

Of course anything’s possible, within the laws of physics, but there are consequences.

I suspect rather than physics, the breaking point will be the amount of time passengers are prepared to spend on escalators to get out of the station. Already some of the Elizabeth Line stations are looking pretty labyrinthine.

This is why I like the idea of taking an east-west route under the Thames or the south bank of the river, just kissing a few stations on the North bank here and there.

 

[Wivenswold]

How about something to relieve Baker Street and Marylebone, taking the Aylesbury via Amersham services (and some Metropolitan line services) out of Baker Street and Marylebone, and leaving Marylebone room to cater for the growing number of people and services travelling in from the Chilterns?

Yes. Absolutely. Metroland/Chilterns join CR1 through Central London and maybe take up the Abbey Wood branch and extend it to Ebbsfleet International. Then the Circle Line can be increased in frequency or the Wimbleware extended to Moorgate.

 

[AndrewE]

Transpennine upgrade is definitely on the cards, and will happen long before Crossrail 2 (if it ever happens)

"On the cards"... yeah, right. I hope that "if it ever happens" applies to Crossrail 2 rather than the Transpennine upgrade... And is that a real upgrade, or token upgrade? What would be the reaction to 100% diesel working of the Thameslink tunnel I wonder?

I suspect rather than physics, the breaking point will be the amount of time passengers are prepared to spend on escalators to get out of the station. Already some of the Elizabeth Line stations are looking pretty labyrinthine.

This is why I like the idea of taking an east-west route under the Thames or the south bank of the river, just kissing a few stations on the North bank here and there.

What for? An Elizabeth-relieving line? (if that isn't a treasonable suggestion)
Isn't there already an enormous tube that will be (intermittently) full of **** on that alignment? If you are going below it, then surely Bald Rick's comments still apply. If they don't, then why is a deep level through HS2 line not possible instead? Why waste resources on further increasing Londonland's attempts to keep itself mobile when a (very) deep station with travellator links to the existing termini would benefit more people living a bit further out from the metropolis?

 

[fowler9]

Hopefully nowhere until there has been more massive investment in the rest of the country.

 

[The Ham]

Easy - Crossrail 3 should be an AC electrified route from both the Amersham and Wycombe routes operated by Chiltern. Express services would route through Old Oak into Paddington; allowing the slower stuff (Aylesbury, Gerrards Cross, Wycombe, Bicester North, Banbury, perhaps also Winslow) to drop down from St Johns Wood / Lords Tunnel underground to Baker Street (Marylebone would be closed), then the trains would stop at Tottenham Court Road, Blackfriars (new platforms on Waterloo & City added), Bank / Monument and rising up out of tunnel near Shadwell.

Fenchurch Street and Marylebone as prime real estate could be re-purposed / built over; and with the conversion of Grays - Upminster and Upminster - Romford into a Tramway system (with a flyover to segregate from other traffic) you could dedicate up to 4tph to the Rainham route, 4tph to Abbey Wood via Barking Riverside and 16tph to Laindon, Basildon, Leigh on Sea, Southend and Shoeburyness. The 4tph from the Gospel Oak to Barking would also operate down towards Grays giving new journey opportunities.

Double-deck stock would be used in 10 carriage, 24 metre formations with wide doors, toilets, First Class etc. all available. Some 5 carriage units would also be used, partnered up in peak where required.

This would make the Chilterns and the Essex Thamesside into prime development land also; and work to give maximum capacity towards a major interchange at Abbey Wood. An underground extension of the Barking Riverside - Abbey Wood line would also include Bexleyheath (station) and an Underground terminus at Bexleyheath Town Centre as the Council there work towards more priority bus routes / trams in the Borough radiating from Bexleyheath.

To achieve a combination of faster and slower commuter services towards Southend, the route would be four-tracked east of Upminster with a 'slow' and 'fast' pair of tracks; the 'slow' pair would be as far as Leigh on Sea with trains via Tilbury also extending this far; the 'fast' pair would enable services from Shoeburyness to run non-stop and more regularly.

Two-tracking of the Stratford-on-Avon route as well as re-modelling at Hatton, Leamington, Princes Risborough and High Wycombe would enable fast services to operate with four-tracking between Moor Street and South Ruislip in any event for the express services from Moor Street to Paddington; creating more paths on the West Coast Main Line.

Indicative peak services [Peak Directions]
2tph Birmingham Moor Street to East London / Essex (Moor Street, Acocks Green, Olton, Solihull, Widney Manor, Dorridge, Warwick Parkway, Warwick, Leamington Spa, Banbury, Bicester North, High Wycombe, Beaconsfield, West Hampstead, Baker Street, Tottenham Court Road, Blackfriars, Bank / Monument, Limehouse, West Ham)

2tph Oxford to East London / Essex (Oxford, Oxford Parkway, Bicester Village, High Wycombe, Beaconsfield, West Hampstead, Baker Street, Tottenham Court Road, Blackfriars, Bank / Monument, Limehouse, West Ham)

2tph Coventry to East London / Essex (Coventry, Kenilworth, Leamington Spa, Banbury, Kings Sutton, Bicester North, Haddenham & Thame, Princes Risborough, West Hampstead, Baker Street, Tottenham Court Road, Blackfriars, Bank / Monument, Limehouse, West Ham)

2tph Stratford on Avon to East London / Essex (Stratford on Avon, Stratford Parkway, Hatton, Warwick Parkway, Warwick, Leamington Spa, Banbury, Bicester North, Haddenham & Thame, Princes Risborough, West Hampstead, Baker Street, Tottenham Court Road, Blackfriars, Bank / Monument, Limehouse, West Ham)

4tph High Wycombe to East London / Essex (Wycombe, Loudwater, Beaconsfield, Seer Green, Gerrards Cross, Denham, South Ruislip, Sudbury Hill, Wembley Stadium, West Hampstead, Baker Street, Tottenham Court Road, Blackfriars, Bank / Monument, Limehouse, West Ham)

4tph Gerrards Cross to East London / Essex (Gerrards Cross, Denham Golf Club, Denham, West Ruislip, South Ruislip, Northolt Park, Sudbury Hill, Harrow Road, Wembley Stadium, West Hampstead, Baker Street, Tottenham Court Road, Blackfriars, Bank / Monument, Limehouse, West Ham)

4tph Aylesbury Vale Parkway to East London / Essex (Aylesbury Vale, Aylesbury, Stoke Mandeville, Wendover, Great Missenden, Amersham, Chalfont, Chorleywood, Rickmansworth, Baker Street, Tottenham Court Road, Blackfriars, Bank / Monument, Limehouse, West Ham)

4tph Aylesbury to East London / Essex (Aylesbury, Great Missenden, Amersham, Chalfont, Rickmansworth, Moor Park, Harrow on the Hill, Baker Street, Tottenham Court Road, Blackfriars, Bank / Monument, Limehouse, West Ham)

And in the other peak direction...

4tph Chiltern Route to Shoeburyness fast (... West Ham, Benfleet, Leigh on Sea, Chalkwell, Westcliff, Southend Central, Southend East, Thorpe Bay and Shoeburyness.)

4tph Chiltern Route to Shoeburyness semi-fast (... West Ham, Basildon, Pitsea, Benfleet, Leigh on Sea, Chalkwell, Westcliff, Southend Central, Southend East, Thorpe Bay and Shoeburyness.)

4tph Chiltern Route to Leigh on Sea via Rainham (... West Ham, Barking, Dagenham Dock, Rainham, Purfleet, Grays, Tilbury Town, East Tilbury, Stanford le Hope, Pitsea, Benfleet, Leigh on Sea.)

4tph Chiltern Route to Leigh on Sea via Basildon (... West Ham, Barking, Upminster, Laindon, Basildon, Pitsea, Benfleet, Leigh on Sea.)

4tph Chiltern Route to Bexleyheath (... West Ham, Barking, Renwick Road, Barking Riverside, Abbey Wood, Bexleyheath and Bexleyheath Town Centre.)

4tph Chiltern Route to Laindon (... West Ham, Barking, Upminster, West Horndon, Laindon.)

(4tph Gospel Oak to a station such as Grays or Stanford le Hope)

Construction of a major new depot would be completed at Shoeburyness with associated Carriage Sidings; along with stabling at East Ham. Smaller depots would be used at Banbury and Aylesbury with stabling at Tyseley and Hinksey.

Drivers based at Moor Street, Banbury, Oxford, Aylesbury and Wembley Stadium would be used in the West and at Barking and Shoeburyness in the East.

10 car trains could be in a mostly suburban layout; with the order of 5 car trains designed with more improved facilities such as on-board vending machines, First Class (i.e. not on 10 car trains) and more toilets; these used on trains to Oxford, Coventry, Stratford and Birmingham; or to Shoeburyness in the east on premier peak trains.

Grade separation and building would be required at Barking; with more turnback facilities / capacity on the District's eastern end to allow more H&C trains to run through.

I can see the advantage of this, in that by adding AC along the Chiltern line and including to Coventry you massively reduce the gaps in the wires for XC services.

However given that we're talking 2040+ chances are those XC routes would ideally already be wired up. Which would mean (like Crossrail) the extra wires wouldn't be part of the budget for Crossrail 3 (assuming this is the route chosen).

 

[The Ham]

Hopefully nowhere until there has been more massive investment in the rest of the country.

Given that Crossrail 2 isn't likely to be completed until 2033 (circa 15 years after Crossrail) it's unlike they Crossrail 3 would be opening this side of 2040 and probably closer to 2050.

As such I would very much hope that the rest of the county would have also seen a lot of other investment in that timeframe.

Just as an aside, those complaining that HS2 won't benefit the rest of the country seem to forget that it is building a number of extra platforms in a number of major cities in the North. That's going to mean that long distance services, which often sit at terminus stations for long periods of time, are removed from those stations freeing up platform space for local services.

Yes there may well be additional works to fit in additional paths, but considering a major cost in the for of the extra main station capacity had been provided the business case is then a LOT better.

Rather than moaning that HS2 isn't doing anything for these cities then maybe you should be looking at how you can make it be a benefit for these cities and the areas around them.

 

[Bald Rick]

"On the cards"... yeah, right. I hope that "if it ever happens" applies to Crossrail 2 rather than the Transpennine upgrade... And is that a real upgrade, or token upgrade? What would be the reaction to 100% diesel working of the Thameslink tunnel I wonder?

Gosh!

Yes, a Transpennine upgrade is definitely on the cards. There are hundreds of people working on the development of it right now.

The diesel working of Thameslink is, I’m afraid, a silly question. It’s already electric, as you know. No one is suggesting de-electrifying the Merseyrail system.

One point to near in mind in all the debate about ‘the north’ and investment is how it is paid for. Nearly 70% of Crossrail is, and over half of Crossrail 2 will be (if it happens), is being paid for locally, ie by taxes and charges raised on local business and development in the region it serves. This isn’t the case for the stuff up north.

Another point is that it isn’t just ‘the north’. It’s also the Midlands, and the West. And the South (ie outside London, how much rail infrastructure investment has there been along the south coast in the last 20 years?)

I suspect rather than physics, the breaking point will be the amount of time passengers are prepared to spend on escalators to get out of the station. Already some of the Elizabeth Line stations are looking pretty labyrinthine.

This is why I like the idea of taking an east-west route under the Thames or the south bank of the river, just kissing a few stations on the North bank here and there.

Take Bank for example. Were another line go through there there is simply nowhere you can put the connecting tunnels and passage ways and new entrances needed without removing existing station platforms / passageways etc. So you can’t have a station at Bank, it has to be somewhere else.