Porterbrook Cl.769 'Flex' trains from 319s, initially for Northern

[Cardiff123]

I know it's conjecture and speculation but I just think there is something more than meets the eye. Particularly if you consider Arriva Trains Wales have thrown £1 million of taxpayers' money at it for just 5 units - as well as potentially support from the DfT and other franchises and still very little progress. Either they are not confident the 319 can work as a bi-mode or Porterbrook see the 769 Flex project as inherently risky or as a Plan B.

Arriva TW invested £1 million of their own money, along with Welsh Govt investing £1.8 million of taxpayers money, in 5 x 769 units. So Wales has invested £2.8 million in 5 x 769s, although Keolis Amey have said that they have an option for 4 more when they take over from ATW next month.
Keolis Amey will be lucky to see any 769s operating with them in Wales.

 

[a_c_skinner]

As I've said many times before, Barrow and Windermere are the obvious targets

And as I've said many times before a seat and a train that is close to on time is what people want. Everything else is secondary, unless you want to deploy new trains in a marginal constituency to get votes from people who only rarely travel by train.

 

[Bletchleyite]

And as I've said many times before a seat and a train that is close to on time is what people want. Everything else is secondary, unless you want to deploy new trains in a marginal constituency to get votes from people who only rarely travel by train.

Confused by this, as Barrow and Windermere are getting new trains - just that they are DMUs.

 

[a_c_skinner]

Shorter with fewer seats are they not compared with 769s? Bimode must be the most sensible option for Furness and Windermere.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Shorter with fewer seats are they not compared with 769s?

Ah, you were speaking in favour of 769s?

 

[a_c_skinner]

Ah, you were speaking in favour of 769s?

Yes, sorry. I was making the point that most passengers value things more than USB and air con, like seats, so the Northern Connect specification, if it ties the services to smaller but new trains will be counter productive.

 

[EE Andy b1]

It's also been reported in another thread the barrier coaches for the 769 testing have arrived at the GCR.

The Barriers or Translator coaches have arrived!! Photo GCR Sunday 09/09/18.

 

[Jonny]

The Barriers or Translator coaches have arrived!! Photo GCR Sunday 09/09/18.


View attachment 52383

Nice photo!

Which poses a couple of questions:
Which (part of) the GCR?
What part of the trip will they be used for?

 

[Roose]

As I've said many times before, Barrow and Windermere are the obvious targets, though it would require a franchise agreement change (which isn't out of the question given the precedents for this happening) to allow a lower standard of stock to operate on Northern Connect services than presently required.

Saying something repeatedly doesn't make it any more true!

Most Windermere services will not be Northern Connect services while there will be (IIRC) eight NC services on the Furness line. These will be principal stations only between Barrow and Lancaster the on to the airport so a four-coach unit would likely be over-capacity, at least until Northern convinces folk that they can provide a regular, reliable service and win back the custom that has been lost.

Four coaches would be welcomed on Furness peak stopping services and busy summer services on the Lakes Line, however, but it remains to be seen how well Class 769 units will cope with the climb from Kendal to Windermere and Lindal bank.

 

[Cowley]

The Barriers or Translator coaches have arrived!! Photo GCR Sunday 09/09/18.


View attachment 52383

Are they painted in BR blue and grey?

 

[LOL The Irony]

Four coaches would be welcomed on Furness peak stopping services and busy summer services on the Lakes Line, however, but it remains to be seen how well Class 769 units will cope with the climb from Kendal to Windermere and Lindal bank.

Just see how the 319's perform on the Woodhead route runs. That'll be a good benchmark.

 

[EE Andy b1]

Which poses a couple of questions:
Which (part of) the GCR?
What part of the trip will they be used for?

I believe testing is available on the Great Central Railway over the double track section up-to 75 mph between Loughborough, Quorn & Woodhouse to Rothley.

The Translator/barrier vehicles i presume will be used to ferry the 769s between stabling and test sight or in case of Flex failures.

 

[EE Andy b1]

Are they painted in BR blue and grey?

Yes those first two.

 

[Cowley]

Yes those first two.

Thanks for that. Any idea when they were painted?
That livery is 54 years old this year.

 

[EE Andy b1]

Thanks for that. Any idea when they were painted?
That livery is 54 years old this year.

I don't know myself when last painted but there very patchy and faded not surprisingly.

There's a really good website, http://www.departmentals.com/ which might have the information on there.

 

[fgwrich]

The Barriers or Translator coaches have arrived!! Photo GCR Sunday 09/09/18.


View attachment 52383

That’s interesting, I believe that pair were reccently heading for scrap. So I wonder if they’ve had a temporary reprieve for the purposes of dragging the 769s around. Those two used to spend most of their time in Scotland being used to ferry units into Springburn works. The livery isn’t BR Blue Grey but dark Blue and White / Cream that has discoloured over time. And In the past, did belong to the Mighty Network SouthEast collection.

 

[js1000]

Arriva TW invested £1 million of their own money, along with Welsh Govt investing £1.8 million of taxpayers money, in 5 x 769 units. So Wales has invested £2.8 million in 5 x 769s, although Keolis Amey have said that they have an option for 4 more when they take over from ATW next month.
Keolis Amey will be lucky to see any 769s operating with them in Wales.

Crazy stuff. Questionable use of Welsh government funds. Surprised the media have not picked up on this failed project. The TOCs mainly bear the brunt of the criticism through good PR operations by the government - less so Network Rail and DfT even though those two are more responsible for the failures of the last 6 months. But ROSCOs? Never.

 

[EE Andy b1]

That’s interesting, I believe that pair were reccently heading for scrap. So I wonder if they’ve had a temporary reprieve for the purposes of dragging the 769s around. Those two used to spend most of their time in Scotland being used to ferry units into Springburn works. The livery isn’t BR Blue Grey but dark Blue and White / Cream that has discoloured over time. And In the past, did belong to the Mighty Network SouthEast collection.

Found this on scot-rail.co.uk

"Until the 12th May 2018, Glasgow Works had its own British Rail era translator vans (ADB 975864 + ADB 975867), but due to their deteriorating state and wheel flats were moved south to Loughborough for potential use with the Class 769 project before cutting up".

 

[Bertie the bus]

So some knackered old coaches have arrived at the GCR and we're supposed to get excited? Where's the 769?

 

[Jonny]

I take it that the 769 will have to travel across Loughborough by road...

No big deal, but only once you have a contractor to do the work.

 

[deltic08]

Bimode must be the most sensible option for Furness and Windermere.

Electrification is the most sensible option for Furness and Windermere. Hopefully common sense will prevail at the DafT eventually.
Bimodes still carry all that extra weight unnecessarily over straight electrics using more power than is necessary. This will run into £millions just wasted and lead to increase in fares.

 

[deltic08]

Found this on scot-rail.co.uk

"Until the 12th May 2018, Glasgow Works had its own British Rail era translator vans (ADB 975864 + ADB 975867), but due to their deteriorating state and wheel flats were moved south to Loughborough for potential use with the Class 769 project before cutting up".

Was it Scotrail or Railscot?

 

[DPWH]

Nice photo!

Which poses a couple of questions:
Which (part of) the GCR?
What part of the trip will they be used for?

The photo shows them in a siding at Rothley, above Rothley Brook, which is on the southern bit of the preserved GCR, looking north, from a train being hauled by D123. You can see Rothley box in the background, and the road bridge over the station.

 

[DimTim]

Nice photo!

Which poses a couple of questions:
Which (part of) the GCR?
What part of the trip will they be used for?

Why does a 769 unit require a barrier coach? They are self propelled by either diesel or 25kv.
Is it in case of failure to drag/push off the route?

 

[EE Andy b1]

Was it Scotrail or Railscot?

http://www.scot-rail.co.uk/page/HomePage

The photo shows them in a siding at Rothley, above Rothley Brook, which is on the southern bit of the preserved GCR, looking north, from a train being hauled by D123. You can see Rothley box in the background, and the road bridge over the station.

Correct in all except it's Class 25 D5185 (25035) hauling.

 

[mushroomchow]

That’s interesting, I believe that pair were reccently heading for scrap. So I wonder if they’ve had a temporary reprieve for the purposes of dragging the 769s around.

Imagine the scenes when it turns out they've decided to use those vans for drags on the Windermere branch instead of actually finishing the project.

The photo shows them in a siding at Rothley, above Rothley Brook, which is on the southern bit of the preserved GCR, looking north, from a train being hauled by D123.

If ever there was an ominous sign for the project, it would be a photo from behind a locomotive that failed spectacularly a week ago causing knock-on problems for the wider (GCR) network!

Come on Porterbrook, my thumbs are getting tired from the constant twiddling.

 

[northwichcat]

Imagine the scenes when it turns out they've decided to use those vans for drags on the Windermere branch instead of actually finishing the project.

The idea of 769s for Windermere was dropped when Porterbrook missed the Spring 2018 deadline for the introduction of 769s in to revenue earning service. It is now expected to be one the first routes to get 195s and they will remain there until the 'alternative fueled trains' trial takes place.

 

[DarloRich]

Why does a 769 unit require a barrier coach? They are self propelled by either diesel or 25kv.
Is it in case of failure to drag/push off the route?

yes. Can an old diesel like a class 25 "talk" to a "modern" unit?

 

[a_c_skinner]

There should be an air quality gain from not using diesel into the centre of Manchester and Leeds even if the mileage on AC isn't huge. It all hinges on if and how well they work. Leeds - Morecambe is significantly under the wires (but significantly hilly too) for example.

principal stations only between Barrow and Lancaster the on to the airport so a four-coach unit would likely be over-capacity

As a fairly regular Furness Line user that wouldn't be the end of the world. The services are fuller closer in to Manchester and it is obvious if you use them that ridership is limited by crowding. Anyhow it seems that new trains will take priority over enough seats.

 

[AM9]

Why does a 769 unit require a barrier coach? They are self propelled by either diesel or 25kv.
Is it in case of failure to drag/push off the route?

Not until they are approved, which won't be beforer they are tested on a non-operationally live track.