Transpennine Route Upgrade and Electrification updates

[jonesy3001]

How often did you travel over Woodhead? It was a very attractive route, but it wasn't and never could have been a fast alignment.

Shut down 3yrs before i moved to hyde, i lived near flowery field train station and ventured out to glossop/hadfield and was wondering what was with the gantries at hadfield.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

How about wiring Leeds to York? It doesn't seem to be part of NPR and is necessary part of any electric line. Why not start that after Manchester-Preston to buy time to make long term decisions for Manchester-Leeds.

Agreed - a no brainer. Leeds to York and Selby giving immediate benefits. Finish off Vic - Stalybridge Grid feeder - worry about the middle bit later - perhaps after doing Calder Valley.

 

[jyte]

I've also described the WCML as '9 fine railways joined together by the welds from hell'....

Which has some truth to it.

 

[Mollman]

I think NPR actually enhances the case for electrification of the current route. Once the Manchester - Leeds passengers travel via NPR then the current route will become more local commuter orientated. High frequency with stops in close succession - perfect for EMUs.

 

[Chester1]

Agreed - a no brainer. Leeds to York and Selby giving immediate benefits. Finish off Vic - Stalybridge Grid feeder - worry about the middle bit later - perhaps after doing Calder Valley.

I think NPR actually enhances the case for electrification of the current route. Once the Manchester - Leeds passengers travel via NPR then the current route will become more local commuter orientated. High frequency with stops in close succession - perfect for EMUs.

Its a waste of money to electrify a line about to undergo a huge rebuild. If it is going to be a commuter line then it can be done soon but not if there will be major changes to junctions and alignmrnts. There is a high chance that Stalybridge station will be redesigned (again) and Miles Platting Junction will need to be redone for NPR or a upgrade of the Standedge route. Thats why I think they should start at the other end, Leeds-York is a no brainer and buys time to make the long term decisions. Leeds-Selby is useful in its own right and would allow 801s to be diverted away from Wakefield. TfNs priority should be to make sure there is work ongoing on an electrification project in the north next year, it doesn't need to insist that one of the transpenine lines is done yet. Lostock-Wigan is another project that work could start on next year to buy time.

 

[Ploughman]

The only genuine problem areas on the route are (i) the houses close to the line near Mossley station; and (b) site access to the western portal of Morley tunnel.

What's the problem with access to Morley tunnel?
Been involved in relaying both roads through the tunnel. relaid all the way through on 1 road then turned round and relaid back.
Morley station car park access for all shifts.
Van access available to the far end if needed unless its been got rid of.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

What's the problem with access to Morley tunnel?
Been involved in relaying both roads through the tunnel. relaid all the way through on 1 road then turned round and relaid back.
Morley station car park access for all shifts.
Van access available to the far end if needed unless its been got rid of.

The Batley end appears to the untrained eye to be difficult to get at with anything big, but I shall bow to your knowledge!

 

[Senex]

I've also described the WCML as '9 fine railways joined together by the welds from hell'....

Which has some truth to it.

It's an excellent description of the WCML and not a bad one of the ECML and Midland as well! But it's not just horrible welds, as there were some pretty horrible changes of plans as well. Think of the way the Trent Valley line, whose origins lie in plans for a Rugby and Manchester line, was twisted to get it to Stafford. Think of the horrible alignment at the south end of the North Staffs which was introduced after the original planning had been done. Then there's the section of the ECML north of the ploughed field north of Doncaster, which took decades to put right. And a good few more. Some realignments have been done, but we seem very reluctant to do the sort of small but effective realignments in this country that you see quite a lot of in, say Germany, let alone the much bigger realignments seen in some other countries. Which do we think is the worst bit of the WCML welds? I think I'd nominate Walton Jn - Dallam Branch Jn - Winwick Jn - Parkside Jn.

 

[Senex]

Its a waste of money to electrify a line about to undergo a huge rebuild. If it is going to be a commuter line then it can be done soon but not if there will be major changes to junctions and alignmrnts. There is a high chance that Stalybridge station will be redesigned (again) and Miles Platting Junction will need to be redone for NPR or a upgrade of the Standedge route. Thats why I think they should start at the other end, Leeds-York is a no brainer and buys time to make the long term decisions. Leeds-Selby is useful in its own right and would allow 801s to be diverted away from Wakefield. TfNs priority should be to make sure there is work ongoing on an electrification project in the north next year, it doesn't need to insist that one of the transpenine lines is done yet. Lostock-Wigan is another project that work could start on next year to buy time.

Absolutely! Electrification tends to set alignments and track layouts in aspic, for obvious reasons. For heaven's sake let's have a fast decision on what the future of the Standedge line is, and if it is to be in the long or medium term the principal Manchester-Leeds route, then let's have a quick start of the civil engineering before anyone thinks of putting up the wires. As you say, Leeds-York is a no brainer: not only part of the evential Liverpool-York route by also a really useful electric diversionary route for the ECML, and once you've got as far as Micklefirld, then it's daft not to continue to the Hambleton junctions and Selby. As you say, the priority with electrification must be to keep a significant programme going and not lose all the skills yet again.

 

[IanXC]

TP actually has a good diversion capability via the full Calder Valley route, and the sensible thing would be to modestly upgrade that route first to enable capacity for diverting the Standedge route services for a spell of several years.

Those upgrades, with a view to potential use in such circumstances have been underway for several years!

Agreed - a no brainer. Leeds to York and Selby giving immediate benefits. Finish off Vic - Stalybridge Grid feeder - worry about the middle bit later - perhaps after doing Calder Valley.

Indeed. I'm not sure where we're at with the previous suggestion that the EMCL North power upgrade relied on a grid feeder at Gascoigne Wood and if this will ultimately influence the situation.

I began working through the structures on this section of line, I'll dust down and finish off this work if people would find it interesting?

The other consideration on this stretch is that the only objectives we have seen for TRU are 62 minutes York - Manchester with 2 stops, and 40 minutes Leeds - Manchester with 1 stop. Thus to meet this York to Leeds must be possible in 62 - 40 - dwell time at Leeds. I'd suggest that probably means 20 minutes, with 23-25 minutes being typical currently, and 2 or 3 stopping trains per hour, I struggle to see how it can be achieved without electrification.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

---- Indeed. I'm not sure where we're at with the previous suggestion that the EMCL North power upgrade relied on a grid feeder at Gascoigne Wood and if this will ultimately influence the situation.

I began working through the structures on this section of line, I'll dust down and finish off this work if people would find it interesting? .

Absolutely -yes please. As you may have gathered by now, I am rather passionate about electrification!

 

[Class 170101]

He also referred to the Class 185 capacity situation a decade ago, and portrayed it as being impossible to order more vehicles because of changes to emissions regulations.

We don't need more Class 185s just operate them in pairs and order new stock of modern designs to cover the shortfall.

 

[superkev]

Article in today's Bradford T and A.
https://www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk
K

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Article in today's Bradford T and A.
https://www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk
K

I actually find the article encouraging (especially if they have insider info)

 

[IanXC]

Absolutely -yes please. As you may have gathered by now, I am rather passionate about electrification!

So, by Engineers Line of Route, with the few notes I have as yet researched.

CFM Church Fenton to Micklefield Junction
CFM 2A Overline Br ROSE LANE FOOTBRIDGE
CFM 8 Overline Br HUDDLESTONE ROAD
CFM 11 Overline Br HIGH BRIDGE
CFM 12 Overline Br SHEPHERDS BRIDGE

HUL2 Selby to Selby South Junction
HUL2 24 Overline Br Station Footbridge - Selby non accessible station footbridge, no sign of a project for this
HUL2 23 Overline Br PARK STREET (NYCC) potentially to be replaced in a Local Authority road realignment

HUL3 Selby South Junction to Micklefield Junction
HUL3 1A Overline Br ROADWAY, GASCOIGNE WOOD (UK COAL) OP modern bridge, potentially already compliant?
HUL3 1E Overline Br CONVEYORS 35/37, GASCOIGNE WOOD MINE - OP relates to closed mine, out of use or already removed?
HUL3 8 Overline Br GORSE LANE. - G2 Listed

HUL4 Micklefield Junction to Neville Hill East Junction
HUL4 11AA Overline Br A1(M). NEW OVERBRIDGE 2005 - OP built in 2005
HUL4 14 Overline Br A656 RIDGE ROAD (LISTED)
HUL4 14A Overline Br STEEL GAS MAIN ON CONCRETE PIERS - OP
HUL4 15 Overline Br HUL4/15 BRADY FARM BRIDGE - LISTED appears to be out of use
HUL4 15A Overline Br Station Footbridge - East Garforth
HUL4 16 Overline Br BAR LANE, CHURCH TOWN BRIDGE
HUL4 17 Overline Br Station Footbridge - Garforth access works currently proposed, unclear if this involves a new footbridge
HUL4 18 Overline Br A642 ABERFORD ROAD,GARFORTH (EX WKFD RD) LISTED
HUL4 19B Overline Br A1/M1 LINK ROAD, CRAWSHAW - OP Motorway era
HUL4 20 Overline Br CRAWSHAW WOODS (LISTED)
HUL4 20B Overline Br 18"" STEEL GAS MAIN AND PIERS - OP
HUL4 21 Overline Br AUSTHORPE LANE (LISTED)
HUL4 21A Overline Br AUSTHORPE LANE FOOTBRIDGE - LA
HUL4 23 Overline Br A6120 STATION ROAD, CROSS GATES - LA
HUL4 24 Overline Br GRAVELEYTHORPE FOOTBRIDGE
HUL4 26 Overline Br KILLINGBECK EAST FOOTBRIDGE.
HUL4 27 Overline Br SUTTON APPROACH FOOTBRIDGE - LA
HUL4 30B Overline Br OSMONDTHORPE FOOTBRIDGE - LA

NOC Colton Junction to Sherburn Junction
NOC 12 Overline Br COLTON LANE
NOC 13 Overline Br BRUMBER HILL
NOC 15 Overline Br STATION BRIDGE, BOLTON PERCY Completed before previous pause
NOC 22 Overline Br B1223 ULLESKELF STATION BRIDGE LA
NOC 22B Overline Br STEPS BTWN NOC/22 ROADWAY & PUBLIC HOUSE is this even a bridge?
NOC 22A Overline Br Station Footbridge - Ulleskelf may or may not be in scope depending on route/lines to be electrified
NOC 28 Overline Br Station Footbridge - Church Fenton
NOC 29 Overline Br COMMON ROAD (ALSO CFM/2)
NOC 30A Overline Br B1222 SHERBURN IN ELMET LA may or may not be in scope depending whether via Sherburn is to be electrified

 

[snowball]

Here for Andrew Haines at Transport Select Committee
https://parliamentlive.tv/Event/Index/40f6c865-7c9f-4caa-890f-cd9ba8dabc47

Runs for almost an hour and a half. I've watched the first hour and a bit so far. TP is discussed from 17:02:00 to 17:07:40.

 

[snowball]

Article in today's Bradford T and A.
https://www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk
K

Includes this:

The programme of work for the Transpennine route includes:

• renewal of equipment that is contributing to poor performance;
  
  
• introducing electrification between Leeds and Huddersfield and Stalybridge to Manchester Victoria;
  
  
• reinstating four tracks between Huddersfield and Ravensthorpe, near Dewsbury;
  
  
• introducing digital signalling between Cottingley (in south-west Leeds) and Stalybridge;
  
  
• line speed improvements between Manchester and Stalybridge, Morley and Ulleskelf to York;
  
  
• increasing capacity at Leeds and Calder Valley stations and enhancing Huddersfield and Stalybridge stations.

"This could mean that Leeds and Manchester lose their direct rail connection for a number of months, Huddersfield would lose connectivity to both Leeds and Manchester for many months.

"Communities such as Mirfield, Batley and Dewsbury would be hugely affected as many rail services would need to become bus replacements.

It's the first report I've seen that claims to know what electrification will be done.

 

[snowball]

NOC Colton Junction to Sherburn Junction
NOC 12 Overline Br COLTON LANE
NOC 13 Overline Br BRUMBER HILL
NOC 15 Overline Br STATION BRIDGE, BOLTON PERCY Completed before previous pause
NOC 22 Overline Br B1223 ULLESKELF STATION BRIDGE LA
NOC 22B Overline Br STEPS BTWN NOC/22 ROADWAY & PUBLIC HOUSE is this even a bridge?
NOC 22A Overline Br Station Footbridge - Ulleskelf may or may not be in scope depending on route/lines to be electrified

Brumber Hill bridge was done as part of the same contract as Bolton Percy station bridge. Smaller works were also done to a couple of other bridges including one at Ulleskelf. If you look back in this thread to 2015 you'll find some discussion.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Includes this:

It's the first report I've seen that claims to know what electrification will be done.

Exactly which is why I was encouraged. Leeds and Huddersfield and Vic to Stalybridge seems not bad but crazy not to do York to Leeds

 

[snowball]

At about 18:02:45 in the video he gives qualified support to Grayling's position on Piccadilly P15-16.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

I wonder if behind the scenes there are discussions about the possibility of deferring (much of) HS2b and expediting work on NPR/HS3 instead. There are certainly plenty on here who would welcome that! That would still allow for the more localised electrification projects either side of the Pennines to go ahead without having to cut the core route in two to allow the most difficult section to be done. Once you have HS3 you revisit the conventional T-P routes for modernisation without being quite so concerned about speed. It's the sort of politically inspired compromise that we often tend to reach in this country so could have some attraction to current stakeholders.

 

[jonesy3001]

Is it only the victoria - stalybridge line thats getting electrified or are they doing the guide bridge - stalybridge section as well?

 

[Bantamzen]

I actually find the article encouraging (especially if they have insider info)

Well having inside information would be a first for the T&A.....

Exactly which is why I was encouraged. Leeds and Huddersfield and Vic to Stalybridge seems not bad but crazy not to do York to Leeds

Its encouraging, but at the same time you have to wonder about the logic of wiring all but a few miles over the tops when most services currently using Leeds-Huddersfield-Stalybridge-Manchester are through services, and fully wired electrics could be used throughout and beyond. But we'll have to wait and see what the final proposal is.

 

[AndrewE]

At about 18:02:45 in the video he gives qualified support to Grayling's position on Piccadilly P15-16.

I thought Grayling was refusing to say what his position was?

 

[Spartacus]

I thought Grayling was refusing to say what his position was?

I thought his position was sat squarely on the fence?

 

[edwin_m]

I wonder if behind the scenes there are discussions about the possibility of deferring (much of) HS2b and expediting work on NPR/HS3 instead. There are certainly plenty on here who would welcome that! That would still allow for the more localised electrification projects either side of the Pennines to go ahead without having to cut the core route in two to allow the most difficult section to be done. Once you have HS3 you revisit the conventional T-P routes for modernisation without being quite so concerned about speed. It's the sort of politically inspired compromise that we often tend to reach in this country so could have some attraction to current stakeholders.

NPR is expected to use HS2b between Manchester and somewhere in Cheshire for Manchester-Liverpool services. It is also planned to accelerate Sheffield-Leeds by using the northern part of the HS2b eastern leg. So this would only involve deferring Crewe to somewhere in Cheshire (deleting this fairly short section would keep high speed Manchester services on the busy Crewe-Stockport section for longer) and the southern part of the eastern leg (arguably robbing one region to pay another).

 

[snowball]

I thought his position was sat squarely on the fence?

I must have posted this half a dozen times in various threads.

He hasn't announced an official decision either to approve or reject the P15-16 application, but a year ago, when cancelling the Cardiff-Swansea, MML and Windermere electrifications, he said in the Financial Times he thought the project seemed unnecessary, and compared the number of trains per hour in the Oxford Road - Picc corridor with the greater number through the Thameslink and/or Crossrail cores. He suggested fancier signalling was the solution.

 

[Chester1]

Is it only the victoria - stalybridge line thats getting electrified or are they doing the guide bridge - stalybridge section as well?

It will surely be done at some point because its a short stretch with no major obstacles. It was part of the original electrification plan. A Piccadilly-Stalybridge shuttle would be very useful if Victoria to Huddersfield is closed for a rebuild.

 

[Grumpy]

So, by Engineers Line of Route, with the few notes I have as yet researched.

Apologies if I've missed it, but I think you have omitted from HU4 the road bridge built for the Thorpe Park development.

The question seems to be which of these bridges need significant money spending on them. As stated by Snowball some work was done a few years back but might not meet revised standards.​

 

[twpsaesneg]

It will surely be done at some point because its a short stretch with no major obstacles. It was part of the original electrification plan. A Piccadilly-Stalybridge shuttle would be very useful if Victoria to Huddersfield is closed for a rebuild.

It was part of the original Phase 5 scope but was descoped very early on. I agree it should be done, but there are an awful lot of works to do to bring the existing Ardwick to Guide bridge wiring up to scratch as well. There are also a couple of nasty engineering obstacles to overcome including 2 listed viaducts (albeit short ones).

I hope it will all be authorised!