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Colour blindness

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superkev

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I'm aware of someone who was turned down for a guard due to colour blindness which can't have been that severe as they where unaware.
I believe there are many levels of colour blindness. Surely all that's needed is to recognise Red amber and green.
Is there a standard?
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F285

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Maybe once there's a hint of colour blindness, it's over. I have a friend who wanted to apply for guard but he knew once he did a sight test he would fail. At his opticians he couldn't make out the numbers within the patterns from the book they use.
 

ES21

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Surely all that's needed is to recognise Red amber and green. Is there a standard?
K
The Ishihara test IS a red-green deficiency test. It can determine whether a person has total colour blindness, or mild or strong red or green deficiencies.
 

wizzyfirefly

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Research the CAD and lantern test

RAF & London Underground now use these tests if you fail the Ishihara plates

City University undertake these tests... also some Ophthalmology Universities will do these to give their students exposure and evidence to take forward in their careers
 

Highlandspring

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Medicals for staff employed on Network Rail managed infrastructre use only the Ishihara test.
 

TheEdge

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Research the CAD and lantern test

RAF & London Underground now use these tests if you fail the Ishihara plates

City University undertake these tests... also some Ophthalmology Universities will do these to give their students exposure and evidence to take forward in their careers

That's nice, but entirely irrelevant.

This comes up every time a thread appears about colour blindness. The railways (excluding LUL as they are a separate entity) use the Ishihara test, and only the Ishihara test.
 

whhistle

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The standard for railway safety critical is perfect colour vision. Any failure of the ishihara test is terminal.
Slightly incorrect.

The Ishihara test does not test for blue/yellow colour blindness - thus there could be drivers out there who are colour blind to those colours.

However, the test (that was invented around 1917 I should add! - that's 100 years ago.) isn't really appropriate for modern use as there are a growing number of people who are fine in their colour vision perception, but can't pass that test.

As things stand at the moment, many airlines use other tests (such as the City University test) - so you could fly a plane but can't wave a train from a platform. It's one of those things nobody really cares about because not many people understand colour blindness.

The article on Wikipedia is very misleading on the matter - not all colourblind people see browns instead of greens or reds. In fact, I'd suggest very few do.



The Ishihara test IS a red-green deficiency test. It can determine whether a person has total colour blindness, or mild or strong red or green deficiencies.
Incorrect.
The test is pass/fail. There's no severity, which is what makes it silly for modern use, especially when there are tests out there that can show the severity.
It's like saying if you can't run 100 metres in 20 seconds, you can't be a driver.
Or if you can't lift 500Kg, you can't be a safety critical person as you're not fit enough.



The railways use the Ishihara test, and only the Ishihara test.
They choose to but don't have to.
The RSSB guidance documents even highlight the City University test as an alternative but TOCs (for whatever reason / no reason), decide not to use it.
 

Llanigraham

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They choose to but don't have to.
The RSSB guidance documents even highlight the City University test as an alternative but TOCs (for whatever reason / no reason), decide not to use it.

Correct they don't have to, but it is a simple, quick and cheap test that can be conducted by anyone, whereas the other test is the opposite. Therefore the Ishihara test will continue to be the one that the railway uses. Comparisons to any other "occupation" is pointless.
 

ES21

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Incorrect.
The test is pass/fai
Incorrect.
The test allows a colour vision deficiency to be recorded as mild or strong deuteranopia or protanopia. But yes, it's use in the railway is pass or fail I believe.
 

ComUtoR

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The Ishihara test does not test for blue/yellow colour blindness - thus there could be drivers out there who are colour blind to those colours.

Which is perfectly acceptable. If there was a need to test for blue/yellow then they would change the test. Therefore this point it totally irrelevant.

However, the test (that was invented around 1917 I should add! - that's 100 years ago.) isn't really appropriate for modern use as there are a growing number of people who are fine in their colour vision perception, but can't pass that test.

Why isn't it appropriate ? Also, do you realize why this test is being used for the railway compared to other industries ? A test that is 100 yrs old is still proving to be highly accurate.

As things stand at the moment, many airlines use other tests (such as the City University test) - so you could fly a plane but can't wave a train from a platform. It's one of those things nobody really cares about because not many people understand colour blindness.

Do you understand why they use a different test ?

It's like saying if you can't run 100 metres in 20 seconds, you can't be a driver.
Or if you can't lift 500Kg, you can't be a safety critical person as you're not fit enough.

Are you aware of the other industry test for medical fitness ?

They choose to but don't have to.
The RSSB guidance documents even highlight the City University test as an alternative but TOCs (for whatever reason / no reason), decide not to use it.

This is misleading. The reasons are very clear as well as the requirements.

Like it or not. This is the test you are required to pass. It is the same test for everyone. If you failed this test, the likelyhood of you then going on to pass a different test is around *0.3%


*a study showed that 0.3% of people with normal colour vision still failed this test.
 

wizzyfirefly

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That's nice, but entirely irrelevant.

This comes up every time a thread appears about colour blindness. The railways (excluding LUL as they are a separate entity) use the Ishihara test, and only the Ishihara test.

Incorrect! I've heard Greater Anglia send "some" candidates who fail to city universay
 

Llanigraham

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This is an antiquated test! And why National fire services instigated different tests!

What the Fire Service use has absolutely no relevance to what the railway uses.
The test we use is perfectly adequate for our use.
It is cheap, easy and quick to undertake and doesn't need a skilled operator, unlike the other test.
 

TheEdge

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Incorrect! I've heard Greater Anglia send "some" candidates who fail to city universay

Heard or know for a fact? I've never known anything other than Ishihara for candidates. Current employees on the railway might be a different case, maybe that's what you've heard, if they fail a medical, but not candidates.
 

Highlandspring

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The use of the Ishihara test by the railway industry only seems to be an issue for those who fail it. The industry has no incentive to change anything as long as they continue to get multiple hundreds of applicants for every vacancy so my advice would be dry your eyes and get over it.
 

wizzyfirefly

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What the Fire Service use has absolutely no relevance to what the railway uses.
The test we use is perfectly adequate for our use.
It is cheap, easy and quick to undertake and doesn't need a skilled operator, unlike the other test.

Dear Llanigraham
I am not trying to create conflict

I found this on the Rail Safety Board:
To date it has been assumed that normal colour vision is required for many roles identified as being safety critical; therefore they have been subject to the requirements for colour vision testing that have formed part of Railway Group Standards (RGS). The test recommended for use by these standards and the Conventional Rail Operations Technical Specification for Interoperability (TSI), the Ishihara Plate test, fails 99.9 percent of individuals with any form of red-green colour blindness. However, some individuals will be able to carry out colour-dependent tasks safely despite colour deficiencies. Therefore using just one tool to test for deficiencies can lead to a waste of time, resources and money.

The Civil Aviation Authority (CAA) has carried out research into a new approach to colour vision testing, based on the simulation of a colour-critical, practical test for pilots. This has shown that some individuals with a moderate degree of red-green colour deficiency are able to carry out the task with the same degree of safety as individuals with normal colour vision (normal trichomats). Transport for London (TfL) has investigated this new approach to colour vision testing, and determined that, by creating a colour vision assessment test based on a simulation of a key task (such as colour discrimination in reading signals), it could safely employ individuals who are currently prevented from undertaking colour vision dependent safety critical work by failing an Ishihara plate test.

The objective of this research was to investigate cost-effective testing for colour vision and, if deemed appropriate, recommend the creation of simulations of bespoke, colour-critical, task dependent tests (similar to those created for CAA and TfL). However, the research has found that the opportunity for change to the current arrangements in the national rail sector is severely limited for a number of reasons. Network Rail is evaluating whether the current requirements could be relaxed for a small number of job roles, and the development of a back-up test for train driver roles is being considered but could prove extremely expensive.
 

TheEdge

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The objective of this research was to investigate cost-effective testing for colour vision and, if deemed appropriate, recommend the creation of simulations of bespoke, colour-critical, task dependent tests (similar to those created for CAA and TfL). However, the research has found that the opportunity for change to the current arrangements in the national rail sector is severely limited for a number of reasons. Network Rail is evaluating whether the current requirements could be relaxed for a small number of job roles, and the development of a back-up test for train driver roles is being considered but could prove extremely expensive.

Highlighted section is the important one. It'll be the roles where signals play a relatively small part of the job, trackside, that sort of thing. Drivers and guards will not be covered. Its all good what the CAA say but piloting, while relying on lots of things, doesn't entirely hinge on being able to tell red, green and yellow apart with 100% accuracy every time.
 

wizzyfirefly

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Having had to go to Camden University some years ago after failing one plate on ishihara plate, I had to undertake a certain test. This test registered a very very minor deficiency. I left with a certificate to show future employees. I've done other plate tests since and I've passed all then another time been picked up on one plate.. AGAIN.

I have approached a certain university to be a candidate for half a day to allow students to carry out the new tests. They're overseen by a qualified Ophthamolist. I have also read several studies regarding these test. The most interesting be that the RAF use these tests to allow future pilots to fly billion pound highly advanced fighter jets and untilise other important aviation equipment.

I would just like to know why some bodies are taking the new test on-board and others are ignoring these advances in more accurate screening???
 

whhistle

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Correct they don't have to, but it is a simple, quick and cheap test that can be conducted by anyone, whereas the other test is the opposite. Therefore the Ishihara test will continue to be the one that the railway uses. Comparisons to any other "occupation" is pointless.
Hm.

So you're saying you think it's right that certain people can fly planes fine, but can't drive a fixed vehicle at slower speeds where there is relatively little action required by the driver?

The other test can be carried out by any competent perosn (just like the Ishihara), but just needs more cost into equipment. That is the single difference. The trade off though, is more accurate results meaning equality for all. Isn't that what we're about these days?


The test allows a colour vision deficiency to be recorded as mild or strong deuteranopia or protanopia. But yes, it's use in the railway is pass or fail I believe.
Hmm. Might want to speak to the City University in London about that then.
I don't think the test with the plates that shows severity is used anymore.



Which is perfectly acceptable. If there was a need to test for blue/yellow then they would change the test. Therefore this point it totally irrelevant.
Ah, so you're saying it's okay for drivers to not care about yellow lights then?
I mean, some may not be able to see them properly. Rare yes, but still possible.


Why isn't it appropriate ? Also, do you realize why this test is being used for the railway compared to other industries ? A test that is 100 yrs old is still proving to be highly accurate.
Because it doesn't produce results that are fair?

You won't understand because you don't want to. I'm sure we've been over this before you and I.


Do you understand why they use a different test ?
Yes. Well, from Virgin Atlantic's point of view at least. Someone from their HR Department told me in a statement they use the City University test because it gives better, accurate results, thus enabling a greater number of people the opportunity to work for them, and in return they get more people applying and are able to pick the "very best talent".

I mean... I believe the London Underground use it too.
Are you suggesting they're putting millions of people at risk every day because the City University test isn't as good/produces fairer results?


This is misleading. The reasons are very clear as well as the requirements.
No, it isn't.

Check RSSB GOGGN3655 appendix B.2.1

My colour vision with regard to red and green meets the requirements (IE, normal vision). The test that is used does not show this. Ergo the test is not appropriate.
The problem is, the RSSB is scared to change the recommendations and TOCs are afraid to use something different because of cost/change/potential incidents I guess. In the case of potential incidents, they should not employ people who eat a lot of red meat as that could cause health problems too!

Whether this mounts to a case of discrimination I don't know, as the requirement is to pass a test, not to have normal colour vision.

Interesting that the RSSB project into a more suitable test says this:
the Ishihara Plate test, fails 99.9 percent of individuals with any form of red-green colour blindness. However, some individuals will be able to carry out colour-dependent tasks safely despite colour deficiencies. Therefore using just one tool to test for deficiencies can lead to a waste of time, resources and money.

It goes on to say:
Transport for London (TfL) has investigated this new approach to colour vision testing, and determined that, by creating a colour vision assessment test based on a simulation of a key task (such as colour discrimination in reading signals), it could safely employ individuals who are currently prevented from undertaking colour vision dependent safety critical work by failing an Ishihara plate test.
No matter how it's dressed up, reading a number from a piece of card in front of you isn't anything like what you would need to do when translating into railway jobs.

I don't know how long it's been used for, but a railway manager once told me before they used the Ishihara test, someone would just be told to stand at the end of the platform and say what they could see displayed on the signal at the other end. Too many variables yes, but seems more realistic than sat in an office reading a book :P
 
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t_star2001uk

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Check RSSB GOGGN3655 appendix B.2.1

My colour vision with regard to red and green meets the requirements (IE, normal vision). The test that is used does not show this. Ergo the test is not appropriate.
The problem is, the RSSB is scared to change the recommendations and TOCs are afraid to use something different because of cost/change/potential incidents I guess. In the case of potential incidents, they should not employ people who eat a lot of red meat as that could cause health problems too!

If you go a bit further down the quoted document

B.2.4 Colour vision tests need to be easy to administer while giving accurate and reproducible results. The Ishihara Test meets these requirements and is very sensitive for detecting red-green abnormalities

and if you look at the reference material

www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/WEB0.pdf

24 Employers must decide whether a person with a slight defect is acceptable for the colour tasks they are required to perform and chose the test accordingly. Subjects who pass the City University test but fail the Ishihara plate test are likely to have practical difficulties with only the most demanding colour discrimination tasks in an occupational context, such as situations involving colour recognition of transport signals. In these cases lantern and trade tests can be used to determine suitability.

Then there is this taken from GO/RT3451

Normal colour vision:
use of a recognised test, such as Ishihara, as well as another recognised test if required, Individuals who pass a properly conducted Ishihara test can be considered to have normal colour vision for the purposes of this requirement. The recognised doctor may also use other validated tests of colour vision at their discretion, for example if acquired colour vision deficiency is suspected.
A.1.28
Different tests may not be equivalent when measuring the same aspect of colour vision. Therefore, some individuals may be able to pass one test but not another and this has important implications for interoperability and for the employee that wishes to change their employer or job.
A.1.29
Advice on other validated tests of colour vision can be found in RSSB’s final research report T940 Identification of a robust colour-vision testing protocol for the rail industry.

And then there is the Train Driver Licenses and Certificates Regulations 2010

Schedule 1 (2) Vision

e)normal colour vision: use of a recognised test, such as Ishihara, as well as another recognised test if required,

Finally to LUL. They only use an alternative in certain circumstances.
Taken from LUL Document S1604 Vision Standard for Personnel Requiring Safety on the Track Certification

3.5.6 For LU employees only, the LU Category 5 Standard (S5606 – Colour Vision Standard) applies. For all other personnel colour vision shall be tested using the Ishihara test. .

And then LUL S5605.

3 Requirements
3.1 Colour vision requirements
Note: This standard must be read with LU Category 1 Standard S1604 Vision standard for LU staff who require safety on the track certification.
3.1.2 Colour vision for TfL staff shall be assessed by the red and green safety critical colour vision (threshold) requirements.
3.1.3 Colour vision must meet the colour assessment and diagnosis thresholds defined in this standard.
3.2 Colour vision test
3.2.1 The colour assessment and diagnosis test shall be applied using the following standard Normal (SN) unit thresholds, determined by TfL OH: Deutan < 7 SN Protan < 10 SN

So it seems that Ishihara is here to stay as the go to colour vision test for the rail industry. Using a comparison between pilots and train drivers cannot really be made for medical fitness standards as each industry presents its own issues.
 

Clip

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I would just like to know why some bodies are taking the new test on-board and others are ignoring these advances in more accurate screening???

Because as already said, drivers & guards need to do this and only this
being able to tell red, green and yellow apart with 100% accuracy every time.

You dont need any advance testing other than that. Im struggling to understand why people cant grasp this
 

ComUtoR

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So you're saying you think it's right that certain people can fly planes fine, but can't drive a fixed vehicle at slower speeds where there is relatively little action required by the driver?

The problem is that there is a belief that one is equivalent to the other. The industry requirements are different. Just because I can drive a car, doesn't mean I can drive a lorry and they are similar vehicles. Even with aircraft there is a difference between each license you need to have. Just because you can fly a light, single prop thingy doesn't mean you can fly a 747. Just because I can drive a train, in no way does it mean I can fly a plane. There just isn't any equivalence and it is not helpful to applicants to suggest such.

The other test can be carried out by any competent perosn (just like the Ishihara), but just needs more cost into equipment. That is the single difference. The trade off though, is more accurate results meaning equality for all. Isn't that what we're about these days?

I fully agree abut the cost of implementing a different test; that nobody could deny. The issue surrounding accuracy is misleading. There is a difference between the accuracy of the test and the sensitivity. The Ishihara is a well established test and is considered to be highly accurate.

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.3109/09286586.2012.759596?src=recsys&journalCode=iope20

Results:
In the comparison between cone dystrophy and all controls, sensitivity, specificity and predictive value were highest for the HRR and Ishihara tests. When patients were compared to controls with normal vision, discriminative accuracy was highest for the HRR test (c-statistic for PD-axes 1, for T-axis 0.851). When compared to controls with poor vision, discriminative accuracy was again highest for the HRR test (c-statistic for PD-axes 0.900, for T-axis 0.766), followed by the Lanthony Panel D-15 test (c-statistic for PD-axes 0.880, for T-axis 0.500) and Ishihara test (c-statistic 0.886). Discriminative accuracies of all tests did not further decrease when patients were compared to controls who were legally blind.

Conclusions: The HRR, Lanthony Panel D-15 and Ishihara all have a high discriminative accuracy to identify cone disorders, but the highest scores were for the HRR test. Poor visual acuity slightly decreased the accuracy of all tests. Our advice is to use the HRR test since this test also allows for evaluation of all three color axes and quantification of color defects.


https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0275540897000227

Abstract

The Ishihara test is the most widely used screening test for red-green colour deficiency. Results obtained by 401 people with red-green colour deficiency show that the combined sensitivity of the Transformation and Vanishing plates of the 38 plate Edition of the Ishihara plates is 95.5% on eight errors, 97.5% on six errors and 99.0% on three errors. The Hidden digit designs only identified approximately 50% of colour-deficient subjects. The protan/deutan classification plates were found to be more effective for deutans than for protans. No classification was obtained for 18% of protanopes and 3% of deuteranopes who saw neither figure on classification plates; 40% of protanomalous trichromats and 37.5% of deuteranomalous trichromats saw both classification figures and were classified on the relative luminance (clarity) of these figures. The specificity of the Ishihara test was determined in a previous study (Birch and McKeever, 1993) and the results combined with the present data to obtain the overall efficiency of the Ishihara plates for a representative cross section of colour-deficient subjects.

I'd quote the wiki too but people get a little sensitive about that :)

If you look at what the test is designed for Red/Green deficiency it carries that out very well to a high degree of accuracy. The test is however, too specific. Which is why its a diagnostic test only. The test isn't designed to find out specific colour blindness and other tests, such as the city test are used to find a greater range of deficiencies. If I had a colour deficiency then I would want to know the specifics and the severity. The Ishihara test wouldn't be sufficient to give me a complete diagnosis. Neither is the City test.

https://www.city.ac.uk/avot/individual-tests/colour-vision-assessment-including-cad

Although the CAD test is a sufficient assessment of colour vision on its own, the full colour vision assessment includes a range of other more familiar tests to confirm results with increased specificity and indication of the extent of any damage caused by disease.

These tests include Ishihara, D15, Holmes-Wright Lantern (type A and B) and AS-HRR Plates. Having completed these tests, you may also be referred to or choose to take the PAPI or CRATO tests.


Hmm. Might want to speak to the City University in London about that then. I don't think the test with the plates that shows severity is used anymore.

It does test for severity. There are different types of plate and the diagnostic plates are used to check severity and type. When the test is taken you have to pass a set number of test plates. If you struggled or failed on a few then you are given more plates to check. Posters have regularly asked "how many plates did you read?" You would need to go through the entire 38 plate set for a more complete diagnosis. Feel free to google that. Its mentioned on several sites.

Ah, so you're saying it's okay for drivers to not care about yellow lights then? I mean, some may not be able to see them properly. Rare yes, but still possible.

What I am saying it that there is a standard that is required to be met. That standard is 'normal colour vision' as defined by the passing of the Ishihara test. It isn't for me to decide what is right or not to care about. Only that the standard, as set out by the RSSB is met.

Because it doesn't produce results that are fair?

This you and others have mentioned before, and on numerous occasions. Why is it 'unfair' why is the result 'unfair' Those who fail are the ones who complain about fairness. The fact is that the fairness of the test is because it is the same test for everyone. There is however, an accepted cultural bias when it comes to medical standards and testing. To say the test is unfair is misleading and inaccurate.

You won't understand because you don't want to. I'm sure we've been over this before you and I.

I do understand thanks. It's not that I wouldn't like to see a change in the testing and wouldn't accept the City Test but the issue is that what test next ? I posted about the HRR test being the one as advised. Should we therefore use that test instead of the City Test ?

Yes. Well, from Virgin Atlantic's point of view at least. Someone from their HR Department told me in a statement they use the City University test because it gives better, accurate results, thus enabling a greater number of people the opportunity to work for them, and in return they get more people applying and are able to pick the "very best talent".

Actually the reverse is true. (sorta) But you also need to accept (which many don't seem to be able) is that the standard for passing with Virgin Atlantic is different from the 'Railway'

https://www.city.ac.uk/avot/individual-tests/colour-vision-assessment-including-cad

What is unique about CAD?
Its 100% sensitivity allows the CAD test to pick up on very low level colour deficiencies which other tests may pass by unnoticed and means that even if your results show some level of colour deficiency you may still be able to take on jobs where colour sensitivity is vital.

Because the City test has a higher degree of sensitivity you are more likely to fail that test than the Ishihara. What then ? Do you really believe that the Railway would keep the same standard requirement ? They could then add blue/yellow and add that as a failure too. The other issue will be that there may be a lot of expense for little reason. If they kept the same standard the City test is more likely to weed out more candidates due to increased sensitivity and the bar being the same it changes nothing. Different test, same standard, harder to pass.

Whether this mounts to a case of discrimination I don't know, as the requirement is to pass a test, not to have normal colour vision.

If everyone sits the same test then there is no discrimination.

No matter how it's dressed up, reading a number from a piece of card in front of you isn't anything like what you would need to do when translating into railway jobs.

People use this argument a lot after they fail. Thankfully, t_star has answered this.

24 Employers must decide whether a person with a slight defect is acceptable for the colour tasks they are required to perform and chose the test accordingly. Subjects who pass the City University test but fail the Ishihara plate test are likely to have practical difficulties with only the most demanding colour discrimination tasks in an occupational context, such as situations involving colour recognition of transport signals. In these cases lantern and trade tests can be used to determine suitability.

Like it or not, there are professionals with years of experience who have determined that there is evidence that passing these tests (not just the Ishihara) do give a candidate a high chance of success and shows an aptitude to be able to perform the job.
 

greatkingrat

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Maybe some people who fail the Ishihara test could be successful train drivers, but then some people who fail the Group Bourdon test would probably make successful train drivers as well. Ultimately the railway would rather lose candidates who could do the job (as there is no shortage of willing applicants), than hire candidates who can't do the job.
 

t_star2001uk

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Maybe some people who fail the Ishihara test could be successful train drivers, but then some people who fail the Group Bourdon test would probably make successful train drivers as well. Ultimately the railway would rather lose candidates who could do the job (as there is no shortage of willing applicants), than hire candidates who can't do the job.

Its not a case of losing candidates. In all testing for safety critical roles in the industry there has to be consistancy in both psychometric and medical standards.
 
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