LNER refusing to refund declassified first class ticket

[tombarker1]

I had two tickets to travel on the 12.19 from Don to KGX on 28th July (the lateness of this post is down to having an email exchange with LENR). These were the lowest tier of first class advance ticket with a two together railcard - £25.75.

However, as my train was cancelled, I then took the 12.50 from DON to KGX - the next train I was able to take. Given this train arrived over 30 mins late into KGX, I have claimed delay repay.

During the journey, the train manager encouraged those with standard class tickets to first class, and first class was declassified, due to a lack of air conditioning in some of the coaches of the trains. First class was therefore not available during the journey.

The NRCoC state in G.38: If you have a first class ticket (or the equivalent) and the first class accommodation (or the equivalent) shown in the National Rail timetable is not available on any train you travel in, you may claim a refund of the difference in price between the first class and the standard class ticket for the relevant part of your journey

I held the lowest tier of first class advance ticket, (£25.75 a ticket), so its seems I should be refunded to the value of the lowest tier of standard class advance ticket (£9.55). I had two tickets, so the overall refund should be £31.20.

However, LNER dispute this, suggesting that, as I have had delay repay to the value of £25.75, they will only pay an extra £5.45, to bring up to £31.20.

Do I have any hope of recovering the full £31.20, plus the delay repay?

 

[yorkie]

Under NRCoT Condition 31, you are entitled to a minimum of the difference between the First class fare (£25.75) and the Standard class fare (£9.55)

So if the difference in fares was £16.20 each (£25.75 - £9.55) then ignoring any potential Delay Repay compensation, you are entitled to a minimum of £32.40 back.

Anything less is a breach of contract.

However even £32.40 would seem mean; they are effectively refusing to pay Delay Repay because your train was declassified!

This is consistent with the sort of response I, and others I know, have received from LNER recently. Their customer "services" department has been known on multiple occasions to treat their passengers with contempt.

I'd take the matter to Transport Focus.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Would not the logic be to refund down to the relevant Standard Advance *and then* pay Delay Repay based on the journey being in Standard, so you should receive a refund of all but £4.78 x 2? (Assuming the due Delay Repay rate was 50%).

 

[Muzer]

Well, that would be logical. On the other hand I've heard of others (including my own mum!) getting first->standard compensation on top of delay repay with their first class ticket (in this case it was with ATW when a canned Barry Island service made her miss the Gerald)!

 

[Haywain]

During the journey, the train manager encouraged those with standard class tickets to first class, and first class was declassified, due to a lack of air conditioning in some of the coaches of the trains. First class was therefore not available during the journey.

I'm curious about your wording of "during the journey". Was first class declassified when you boarded at Doncaster or did this happen at some stage further on, such as Peterborough, after you had received a first class service for part of the journey?

 

[35B]

As much to the point, I’m unclear whether the reference to First Class is to the OP being unable to access First Class accommodation, or that as it was declassified, the “complimentary service” was unavailable?

If the latter, then I’m mildly impressed that they’re conceding anything for declassifying First given what I understand to be their position on the on board offer.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If the entire First Class accommodation is declassified, i.e. it is opened to Standard Class passengers at their discretion rather than selected Standard Class passengers being given a free upgrade, then the passenger is *entitled* per the NRCoC to a partial refund to what they would have paid for a Standard ticket, because then no First Class accommodation was provided on the train. It is as simple as that.

Whether they still bother coming around with the trolley is irrelevant, what matters is that it has been declared as Standard accommodation.

Some TOCs avoid this by asking First Class passengers to move to another First Class coach and don't declassify that one (i.e. Standard passengers are not admitted to it).

 

[35B]

Thanks for clarification

 

[30907]

If the entire First Class accommodation is declassified, i.e. it is opened to Standard Class passengers at their discretion rather than selected Standard Class passengers being given a free upgrade, then the passenger is *entitled* per the NRCoC to a partial refund to what they would have paid for a Standard ticket, because then no First Class accommodation was provided on the train. It is as simple as that.

I am not sure Condition 31.1 can bear that interpretation. Provided a passenger with a First Class ticket has a seat of the normal First Class standard for the train, it seems to me that "accommodation...has been provided," and the fact that it has been made available to other passengers is irrelevant.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I am not sure Condition 31.1 can bear that interpretation. Provided a passenger with a First Class ticket has a seat of the normal First Class standard for the train, it seems to me that "accommodation...has been provided," and the fact that it has been made available to other passengers is irrelevant.

If First Class has been fully declassified and is available to Standard ticket holders, there is no First Class accommodation on the train. It doesn't matter what the seats look like.

 

[NoOnesFool]

I am not sure Condition 31.1 can bear that interpretation. Provided a passenger with a First Class ticket has a seat of the normal First Class standard for the train, it seems to me that "accommodation...has been provided," and the fact that it has been made available to other passengers is irrelevant.

It depends what context the other passengers are allowed in falls under. If the on board staff upgraded an individual STD passenger, then it wouldn't technically affect the First Class status for other passengers. However, if an authorised person declassified the accomodation, then the First Class is no longer First Class and therefore 1st pax won't have received a First Class journey, technically speaking of course.

 

[NoOnesFool]

It's worth noting that First Class complimentary refreshments are not a guaranteed part of the package and are offered on a 'good will' basis, i.e. a pax wouldn't automatically be entitled to a refund if there were no complimentary biscuits. Similarly, in this case, FC refreshments being offered does not change the declassified status of the accomodation.

 

[mmh]

Under NRCoT Condition 31, you are entitled to a minimum of the difference between the First class fare (£25.75) and the Standard class fare (£9.55)

Why? They had a first class ticket, and they travelled in first class.

So if the difference in fares was £16.20 each (£25.75 - £9.55) then ignoring any potential Delay Repay compensation, you are entitled to a minimum of £32.40 back.

Anything less is a breach of contract.

However even £32.40 would seem mean; they are effectively refusing to pay Delay Repay because your train was declassified!

I don't know why you or the original poster thinks the lowest theoretical advance fare is relevant?

But then I've never understood people claiming for declassified first anyway.

 

[Starmill]

Why? They had a first class ticket, and they travelled in first class.

If First Class was declassified, nobody travelled in First Class.

This isn't really that difficult to understand.

Discussion of the complimentary service is off topic - this is a quite separate issue.

 

[Starmill]

I don't know why you or the original poster thinks the lowest theoretical advance fare is relevant?

What do you mean? If you don't think it's relevant, what is the difference in fares? 100% of the fare? For someoe who wouldn't have chosen to travel if First Class were unavailable, then that's the real answer.

What other figures are you going to use?

 

[SickyNicky]

It's worth noting that First Class complimentary refreshments are not a guaranteed part of the package and are offered on a 'good will' basis, i.e. a pax wouldn't automatically be entitled to a refund if there were no complimentary biscuits. Similarly, in this case, FC refreshments being offered does not change the declassified status of the accomodation.

Are you sure about that? If I were to book a first class ticket on the basis of the advertised complimentary service and it didn't subsequently appear, I'm reasonably sure that I would have a claim. Those more versed in these things than I will no doubt cite chapter and verse.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Are you sure about that? If I were to book a first class ticket on the basis of the advertised complimentary service and it didn't subsequently appear, I'm reasonably sure that I would have a claim. Those more versed in these things than I will no doubt cite chapter and verse.

I've certainly got RTVs for complaining about the lack of freebies before.

 

[ainsworth74]

Are you sure about that? If I were to book a first class ticket on the basis of the advertised complimentary service and it didn't subsequently appear, I'm reasonably sure that I would have a claim. Those more versed in these things than I will no doubt cite chapter and verse.

Yes, you probably would in my view. The Consumer Rights Act is quite clear that any information provided by the company that you, as the consumer, rely on when making a decision about a service can be considered to be part of the contract you enter into when engaging their services:

50 Information about the trader or service to be binding

(1)Every contract to supply a service is to be treated as including as a term of the contract anything that is said or written to the consumer, by or on behalf of the trader, about the trader or the service, if—​

(a)it is taken into account by the consumer when deciding to enter into the contract, or​

It certainly, in my view, is hard to argue against that the various advertising materials that appear on LNER's website, their stations and indeed on their trains regarding the catering offered on board their train to first class passengers is something that a consumer would take into account when deciding whether or not to travel first class with LNER (it is certainly a factor in my decision making!!).

The CRA also gives you clarity of the remedy that you make be entitled to in the event of a breach of contract:

54 Consumer's rights to enforce terms about services

(4)If the trader is in breach of a term that section 50 requires to be treated as included in the contract but that does not relate to the service, the consumer has the right to a price reduction (see section 56 for provisions about that right and when it is available).​

And the relevant provision tells us that the price reduction can be up to 100% of the price paid under the contract:

56 Right to price reduction

(1)The right to a price reduction is the right to require the trader to reduce the price to the consumer by an appropriate amount (including the right to receive a refund for anything already paid above the reduced amount).​

(2)The amount of the reduction may, where appropriate, be the full amount of the price.

....

​

(4)A refund under this section must be given without undue delay, and in any event within 14 days beginning with the day on which the trader agrees that the consumer is entitled to a refund.

(5)The trader must give the refund using the same means of payment as the consumer used to pay for the service, unless the consumer expressly agrees otherwise.

(6)The trader must not impose any fee on the consumer in respect of the refund.​

I do not believe this has ever been tested in court or at any other level but by personal opinion is that if the complimentary catering is not provided then the passenger has a claim for a price reduction of at least some level. One suspects that the way the TOCs are avoiding the risk of having to find out exactly what this provision might mean is by, as in Bletchlyite's case, giving some vouchers to any passengers who do make a complaint about the lack of catering.

However! I fear we may be getting a bit off topic. If anyone would like to continue this discussion please feel free to report this post and we'll split out the relevant posts to enable further discussion

 

[Gerald Fiennes]

I tried to get something back for no on-board First Class service back in May on VTEC when the 'there was no power in the kitchen' (so not even a coffee available) but was politely refused by their Customer Services.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

I tried to get something back for no on-board First Class service back in May on VTEC when the 'there was no power in the kitchen' (so not even a coffee available) but was politely refused by their Customer Services.

That's clearly not on! Have you escalated the matter further? How much was the ticket in question worth?

 

[AlterEgo]

I tried to get something back for no on-board First Class service back in May on VTEC when the 'there was no power in the kitchen' (so not even a coffee available) but was politely refused by their Customer Services.

Awful company. I don’t travel on them (well, successor LNER) any more.

 

[bussnapperwm]

OP, I'll have a look at the stuff that they sent me when I get home from work as they have provided (under FOI) guidelines to their staff on how the ""first is declassified"" situation should be dealt with at customer services.

I'll post on here the relevant info about 10-11pm ish

 

[bussnapperwm]

This is from the Compensation POL answer key for staff that LNER have provided under freedom of information.

2. A customer travelled from Aberdeen to London King's Cross at 09:52 on a Tuesday. They hold an Advance Purchase ticket to the value of £50.00 and were delayed 45 minutes

Please confirm the following:
a. Is the 09:52 an LNER service? Yes, it is.
b. If they are due compensation, please state how much & what format will this be sent to the customer. Yes, to the value of £25.00 as cheque, BACS, RTVs or Paypal.

3. A customer travelled from Darlington to Berwick on Tweed. They travelled with a 1st class Advance Purchase ticket (OCS). The service was declassified, which has been confirmed on the Daily Logs. Please confirm the following:
a. Is the customer due any compensation: Due the difference between the 1st &
standard class tickets.
b. If they are due compensation, please state how much: £11.50 difference

I've attached the relevant section, along with the First Class - Standard Class equivalent ticket codes as images below.

One thing to take into consideration is that they'll only allow a claim for one or the other (Declassification or Delay Repay)

Trust this might be handy.

 

[tombarker1]

Hi all - thanks so much for all your help on this!

Just to be clear - first class was declassified - there was no first class accomodation on the train.

After following advice, I sent a polite email stating that I was due further compensation, with similar details to the post set out above. I also set out the information about there being no first class accomodation more clearly.

Unfortunately, LNER have again refused to pay any further compensation, saying that paying further compensation for declassified first class would be against the Passenger's Charter. I think this is flat out wrong - the charter (https://www.lner.co.uk/about-us/passenger-charter/) states on p. 26: 'If you reserved a seat in First Class, but the only seat we can find you is in Standard, we will refund the difference between the First Class fare you paid and the equivalent Standard fare.' LNER are, of course, refusing to do this.

It's really frustrating. Have I got to the end of the road with LNER, and should I take this to Transport Focus? Or is there a better way of escalating the issue?

Also, Class 172 fan - that is really helpful - thank you. I'll use the information when sending further correspondence.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Just to be clear - first class was declassified - there was no first class accomodation on the train.

In which case a debt of at least the difference between your first class ticket, and the cheapest walk-up standard ticket available, is contractually due under NRCoT 31.1. It is LNER's policy that the relevant refund be the difference between the first class ticket held and the equivalent standard ticket (including, where Advances are held, the equivalent tier of Advance).

Unfortunately, LNER have again refused to pay any further compensation, saying that paying further compensation for declassified first class would be against the Passenger's Charter. I think this is flat out wrong - the charter (https://www.lner.co.uk/about-us/passenger-charter/) states on p. 26: 'If you reserved a seat in First Class, but the only seat we can find you is in Standard, we will refund the difference between the First Class fare you paid and the equivalent Standard fare.'

Indeed, this is their policy, and there is a strong argument to suggest that it is not only a question of customer service whether they offer you the difference between the equivalent tickets, but rather a contractual obligation. Namely, Section 50(1) of the Consumer Rights Act 2015 makes any statement made by the trader (LNER) a binding term of the contract if it influences your buying decision and/or post-purchase decision(s) about the service.

In my view, it would be quite reasonable to read the Passenger Charter and decide to buy a first class ticket in the knowledge that you will be refunded the difference to standard class, if first is subsequently not provided. And that way this refund would be a contractual term, and hence a debt is now payable.

LNER are, of course, refusing to do this.

In which case the usual procedure for recovering a contractual debt applies.

Have I got to the end of the road with LNER, and should I take this to Transport Focus?

You could take it to Transport Focus. Personally, I think that's a waste of time as they are merely mediation and not arbitration. An important difference - as whilst they may recommend that LNER pay the refund of the relevant difference, LNER can in no way be forced to do so by Transport Focus.

Or is there a better way of escalating the issue?

I would be pursuing this with the same vigorousness that the TOCs pursue unpaid fares, or for example a passenger in first class who holds a standard class and who refuses to pay the difference!

Send a Letter Before Action to them outlining the amount due, and the contractual basis for the debt. There are plenty of templates online for this. If they don't pay within 14 days of the deemed receipt of the LBA (which is two working days after postage - get proof of postage when sending, but use regular first class post, not signed for), take out a County Court claim against them.

This can be done very easily nowadays - there is a form to fill out online at www.moneyclaim.gov.uk. The fee for issuing a claim is quite low and it is recoverable, along with any other Court fees you incur, and interest, when you win.

If they don't pay a Court judgment then I would imagine further recovery of the debt would be fairly easy - whether through a third party order or a Court writ of one kind or another.

But I am sure they would not let it escalate that far - in all likelihood they would pay at the stage of receiving the LBA, or of receiving the Court paperwork at the latest. If everything went "wrong" then it would typically take 6-9 months for it to proceed to a hearing from today.

Alternatively, if you paid any of the cost of the ticket on a credit card, and the value of the ticket was £100 or above, you could use the protection offered by S75 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 and claim against your card provider. There is a separate procedure for that which I'm happy to explain if it's relevant to your case.