Merseyrail and Giants event

[Kite159]

Then they need to be fined for non-provision of services required by their franchise agreement in an adequate sum that buses would be cheaper.

But if Merseytravel agreed to the changes why would they fine Merseyrail?

 

[Bletchleyite]

But if Merseytravel agreed to the changes why would they fine Merseyrail?

If they did, they need holding to account via the political process as it would prove them unfit to be looking after the transport needs of the City Region.

 

[ivanhoe]

There's a hell of a lot of over the top reactions here. It's a one off event and plenty of notice has been given. It seems that the Countess of Chester Hospital will come to a halt if you take note of some posters . Merseytravel could have insisted on keeping the status quo and the same posters would have been complaining about how extra trains were needed. There isn't any spare capacity and the system is set up to meet the needs of Merseyside at its peak travel times. Throw in an event that is extremely popular and is in the City Centre and you have to make adjustments. People will get to work or home from their holidays.Life will go on.

 

[507 001]

Not personally, I'm sure they can get busy, but it's a relatively straightforward section to replace with buses.

We’re talking very full 6 car trains on a lot of occasions. RRBs would also need to travel down some of the slowest and busiest roads in the city, I.e. through Walton Vale. So in short, it isn’t.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There's a hell of a lot of over the top reactions here. It's a one off event and plenty of notice has been given. It seems that the Countess of Chester Hospital will come to a halt if you take note of some posters . Merseytravel could have insisted on keeping the status quo and the same posters would have been complaining about how extra trains were needed. There isn't any spare capacity and the system is set up to meet the needs of Merseyside at its peak travel times. Throw in an event that is extremely popular and is in the City Centre and you have to make adjustments. People will get to work or home from their holidays.Life will go on.

You're missing the point. Most of us are not objecting to timetable changes. What we are objecting to is stations miles from Liverpool with little or poor other public transport losing their service without replacement. If replacement buses were put on for those local journeys, it'd be fine.

And no, plenty of notice has not been given. I would suggest notice of at least two months should be given for deliberate station closures with no replacement, in order that companies can plan for staff to take annual leave if their journey to work is non-viable, for instance, or an absolute bare minimum of one month. Only two weeks was given.

 

[nedchester]

You're missing the point. Most of us are not objecting to timetable changes. What we are objecting to is stations miles from Liverpool with little or poor other public transport losing their service without replacement. If replacement buses were put on for those local journeys, it'd be fine.

And no, plenty of notice has not been given. I would suggest notice of at least two months should be given for deliberate station closures with no replacement, in order that companies can plan for staff to take annual leave if their journey to work is non-viable, for instance, or an absolute bare minimum of one month. Only two weeks was given.

Exactly. The roads on the Wirral Lines are pretty straight forward as regards buses.

And yes buses were put on the Ellesmere Port once the local Labour MP stuck his oar in. But why are those buses not calling at Overpool and Little Sutton?

 

[sprunt]

Can somebody help me here? Why is this parade of puppets expected to be so stupendously popular that a city's transport system has to be compromised for three days? I simply cannot see what the attraction is, at least not to the degree that seems to be expected. I'm not trying to be a miserable git but I'm failing to understand the scale of the appeal of this event.

I'm not defending the changes to the transport provision, but the show itself is a genuine spectacle (or at least the company's productions in general - I've not seen this specific show). "Puppets" undersells it to an extent - they are on a monumental scale and truly thrilling - I've attached a couple of pictures from the show "The Sultan's Elephant" that I saw in London in 2006 - I hope they give some idea of the scale.

 

[ivanhoe]

You're missing the point. Most of us are not objecting to timetable changes. What we are objecting to is stations miles from Liverpool with little or poor other public transport losing their service without replacement. If replacement buses were put on for those local journeys, it'd be fine.

And no, plenty of notice has not been given. I would suggest notice of at least two months should be given for deliberate station closures with no replacement, in order that companies can plan for staff to take annual leave if their journey to work is non-viable, for instance, or an absolute bare minimum of one month. Only two weeks was given.

I do not feel I'm missing the point. Companies will deal with any problems and I don't think you're suggesting that you are a spokesperson for these Companies. As for communities that have less transport options, just how many are there in Merseyside? How many are you speaking for? Agree, perhaps 4 weeks would be preferable but you come across as if it is the end of the world.
It's an event that has captured the imagination of not just Merseyside but also it's hinterland. Something has to give in order to make it as safe as possible and the Merseytravel budget is under severe pressure. It would be impossible for them to convince the people of Merseyside that some Merseytravel supported buses would have to be stopped because its budget had to used to support a handful of people who for a short period, will be without a train. The costs of RRB's are not cheap and Merseytravel's budget is under pressure.
Finally, encouraging people to put in a claim for lost services just about sums up modern society to me. Ultimately, it would be the people of Merseyside who would pay via more pressures on their Merseytravel budget and it's consequences.
[

 

[Bletchleyite]

I do not feel I'm missing the point. Companies will deal with any problems and I don't think you're suggesting that you are a spokesperson for these Companies. As for communities that have less transport options, just how many are there in Merseyside?

I suggest you read the thread properly, as these have been highlighted in several postings. Many of the stations concerned have no or very poor alternatives. And it is absolutely not right that holders of rail season tickets should have to pay additionally for those alternatives.

The costs of RRB's are not cheap and Merseytravel's budget is under pressure

So? They have an obligation (be that moral or legal) to provide a service.

 

[ivanhoe]

Anyway Bletchleyite, hope you enjoy the Giants

 

[nedchester]

I do not feel I'm missing the point. Companies will deal with any problems and I don't think you're suggesting that you are a spokesperson for these Companies. As for communities that have less transport options, just how many are there in Merseyside? How many are you speaking for? Agree, perhaps 4 weeks would be preferable but you come across as if it is the end of the world. It's an event that has captured the imagination of not just Merseyside but also it's hinterland. Something has to give in order to make it as safe as possible and the Merseytravel budget is under severe pressure. It would be impossible for them to convince the people of Merseyside that some Merseytravel supported buses would have to be stopped because its budget had to used to support a handful of people who for a short period, will be without a train. The costs of RRB's are not cheap and Merseytravel's budget is under pressure.Finally, encouraging people to put in a claim for lost services just about sums up modern society to me. Ultimately, it would be the people of Merseyside who would pay via more pressures on their Merseytravel budget and it's consequences.

Well I am inconvenienced on both Friday and Saturday due to the closing of Capenhurst, which means I will personally incur extra costs by having to drive to Chester on Friday for a forwarding service. I can get a lift to Chester or Hooton on Saturday but cannot get back. I have a return half of a ticket to Capenhurst and yes I shall be presenting it at Chester on Saturday evening for onward transport (taxi) to Capenhurst. Why should I personally pay extra when I shouldn't have to. Thinking about costs the Friday will cost me an extra £10 (petrol and parking) and the Saturday about £15 (petrol and then a taxi home). So I am potentially £25 out of pocket but you think I should not claim that because budgets are squeezed.

Merseyrail / Merseytravel will receive higher revenue from ticket sales due to this event so the costs should off-set the costs of providing alternative transport.

 

[LowLevel]

Not just Merseyrail with issues - owing to overcrowding issues and short platforms EMT services which are expected to get hammered on Saturday are likely to be running as at least 5 cars and not calling at Widnes and possibly Warrington.

 

[fowler9]

The way I see it major events such as this need a big rethink. The regular service will not cope and neither will a bus replacement. People saying they don't understand why "Puppets" should be such a big draw is not helpful. At the end of the day they are a massive draw for people not just in the local region. If a regular service was provided the catastrophe would have been almost hilarious.

 

[Kite159]

Not just Merseyrail with issues - owing to overcrowding issues and short platforms EMT services which are expected to get hammered on Saturday are likely to be running as at least 5 cars and not calling at Widnes and possibly Warrington.

I bet that goes down well with the alternative service for Widnes & Warrington being a limited hourly semi-fast Northern shuttle...

...all for some tourists to ignore the railways as they are unreliable and drive to Liverpool to see some puppets

 

[fowler9]

I bet that goes down well with the alternative service for Widnes & Warrington being a limited hourly semi-fast Northern shuttle...

...all for some tourists to ignore the railways as they are unreliable and drive to Liverpool to see some puppets

Not some tourists, hundreds of thousands of people from all over the world. I won't be going but writing off as being a couple of tourists watching puppets is childish at best.

 

[nedchester]

The way I see it major events such as this need a big rethink. The regular service will not cope and neither will a bus replacement. People saying they don't understand why "Puppets" should be such a big draw is not helpful. At the end of the day they are a massive draw for people not just in the local region. If a regular service was provided the catastrophe would have been almost hilarious.

I agree. Events such of this are undoubtedly popular and you can't just say that because you don't like it others won't.

I think also people realise that in the case of the railways there are finite resources as far as rolling stock goes.

So when these event are on RRB can be hired in at appropriate locations and also agency staff hired in to assist with the movement of passengers (that was done during the loop closure a few months back). It seems to me a bit of a knee jerk reaction that has resulted in the late announcement of the changes which have been ill thought out when it comes to the closed stations. Being told 'find an alternative' is really not good enough.

I would also be interested in the reaction to less able passengers travelling to any of the closed stations being told to walk / get a bus etc. Merseyrail could really find themselves in hot water over that.

 

[fowler9]

I agree. Events such of this are undoubtedly popular and you can't just say that because you don't like it others won't.

I think also people realise that in the case of the railways there are finite resources as far as rolling stock goes.

So when these event are on RRB can be hired in at appropriate locations and also agency staff hired in to assist with the movement of passengers (that was done during the loop closure a few months back). It seems to me a bit of a knee jerk reaction that has resulted in the late announcement of the changes which have been ill thought out when it comes to the closed stations. Being told 'find an alternative' is really not good enough.

I would also be interested in the reaction to less able passengers travelling to any of the closed stations being told to walk / get a bus etc. Merseyrail could really find themselves in hot water over that.

It's difficult. The first event like this I went to was the giant spider. I went to the closing event and getting home took hours despite the fact I live 4 miles from the city centre. I was going to see the giants a few years later and West Allerton station was closed due to the shear number of people trying to get on trains that were already crush loaded. You would need about four buses to replace each train and even then the roads near the city centre were shut and traffic was chaos. But yeah, it's just a few puppets.

 

[6Gman]

It's difficult. The first event like this I went to was the giant spider. I went to the closing event and getting home took hours despite the fact I live 4 miles from the city centre. I was going to see the giants a few years later and West Allerton station was closed due to the shear number of people trying to get on trains that were already crush loaded. You would need about four buses to replace each train and even then the roads near the city centre were shut and traffic was chaos. But yeah, it's just a few puppets.

Mega events require a thorough and well thought out transport plan.

This event doesn't seem to have been treated in that way.

 

[Skie]

https://www.littletimemachine.com/2014/07/giants-liverpool-final-day/
Not bad crowds for some little puppets...

 

[urbophile]

Latest news in the Echo says that Bache and Hightown stations will remain open.

 

[B&I]

This total shambles raises a number of interesting wider issues. What does the number of people crowding onto trains for particular events like this say about latent demand for rail travel around provincal cities ? And to what extent is the whole railway structure predicated on the assumption that most of that demand will remain untapped, most of the time ?

 

[Bletchleyite]

This total shambles raises a number of interesting wider issues. What does the number of people crowding onto trains for particular events like this say about latent demand for rail travel around provincal cities ? And to what extent is the whole railway structure predicated on the assumption that most of that demand will remain untapped, most of the time ?

Merseyrail typically operates nowhere near capacity - there is no suppressed demand of the kind there is with seriously overcrowded Northern.

 

[M28361M]

Merseyrail typically operates nowhere near capacity - there is no suppressed demand of the kind there is with seriously overcrowded Northern.

True, although passenger numbers do seem to be up compared with a decade ago. I've been a regular commuter on Merseyrail since 2003 - when I started, my regular train to work was a booked 3 car working, and was standing room only but not uncomfortably so. Now it is booked for a 6-car, and if turns up short-formed, it is often crush-loaded to the extent that people cannot board at later stops.

My concern is that things will get worse with the new rolling stock, with only 52 trains planned to replace the current fleet of 59. Yes, the 777s will be slightly longer and have a higher standing capacity, and will have better acceleration allowing shorter journey times, so the service can be delivered with fewer trains, but it doesn't leave much room for growth or handling special events like this.

I am worried that the giants experiment will be judged a "success" by Merseyrail management, and we will see similar shenanigans in future for other events.

 

[urbophile]

True, although passenger numbers do seem to be up compared with a decade ago. I've been a regular commuter on Merseyrail since 2003 - when I started, my regular train to work was a booked 3 car working, and was standing room only but not uncomfortably so. Now it is booked for a 6-car, and if turns up short-formed, it is often crush-loaded to the extent that people cannot board at later stops.

15.15 yesterday: Northern line to Hunts Cross. 3-car unit full and standing (not quite London-style crush, but for an off-peak service crushed enough). Usually enough passengers have decanted by St Michaels to allow everyone to have a seat, but there were still plenty of standers when I got off at Cressington. Maybe a lot of people had been to see the giant boy at St George's Hall, but that wasn't billed as the main attraction so things should be busy today and the weekend. Giants and special events apart, the trains do seem to be getting busier.

 

[nedchester]

I am worried that the giants experiment will be judged a "success" by Merseyrail management, and we will see similar shenanigans in future for other events.

And there's the worry. There will no doubt be lots of back slapping after the event and they will think they have a plan in place for whatever major event happens in the future.

I've been out today travelling from Hooton (having had to drive there) to Chester and beyond and back. Hooton had at least 10 extra staff (Carlisle security and Merseyrail) to direct passengers. I know that the great British public think this is good and ME will think it is good PR but excess and over the top. At Chester there were two extra people for security (standing around doing nothing because they were not needed) and even one at Bache (again doing nothing apart from sheltering from the rain; again over the top).

I can understand extra staff being needed in the central Liverpool stations and New Brighton but at all the open Merseyrail stations (it appears) is nannying passengers in the extreme.

I'll also add that a good few seemed to be using the RRB from Hooton to Ellesmere Port.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Do we know who required said nannying - might it have been the BTP?

 

[TheSel]

Been out and sampled the service from Southport to Liverpool South Parkway today. A few trains - particularly northbound - were a few minutes late, but generally everything seemed to be running pretty smoothly. On-board (live) announcements were clear and audible, and there were plenty staff around - including some PR-types - offering leaflets about the disruption to intending passengers on platforms. Generally, prior to leaving the station before a closed one [example Ainsdale], a "live" announcement was made that the train would not be stopping at [for example] Freshfield, and the next stop would be [for example] Formby.

Two criticisms - both of the on-board displays / automated announcements.

Firstly it seems that these were programmed before the U-turn that decided trains would indeed stop at Hightown - in both directions the automated "The Next Station is ..." announcement and display ignored Hightown, and thus advised that after Formby, the next stop southbound would be Hall Road, and vice versa. It would be interesting to know if a similar issue arose on the Hooton - Chester shuttles?

Secondly, the announcement / display continued to advise passengers to change at Moorfields for all Wirral Line services. I suppose, technically, it was necessary to ALIGHT at Moorfields for such services, but it's not exactly a CHANGE when there is no Wirral line service from there. This was only partially corrected by the live announcements from the guards telling passengers to CHANGE - rather than alight - here for the City Centre.

 

[trainophile]

The National News has been working people up into a frenzy about the event. I was staying in Glasgow last night and it was all over the Breakfast bulletins, so goodness knows what the local coverage has been like.

I can’t see the attraction myself but each to their own.

 

[fowler9]

The National News has been working people up into a frenzy about the event. I was staying in Glasgow last night and it was all over the Breakfast bulletins, so goodness knows what the local coverage has been like.

I can’t see the attraction myself but each to their own.

The Echo is bigging it up as would be expected. Didn't have any effect on the three Northern services I got between West Allerton and Lime Street this evening but I think I was lucky. My first service of the evening was LNWR from Parkway to Lime Street and was fine. Few people I work with had trouble getting to work this morning mostly due to bus services being a mess due to road closures. Two mates who are black cab drivers said that the roads near the city were carnage exacerbated by the roads being closed hours before it started, the blow was softened by them making a fortune today. Ha ha.

 

[M60lad]

East Midlands Trains are putting additional carriages on their Nottingham-Liverpool services today as a result their not calling at Widnes or Hunts Cross and they are advising passenger to only travel if absolutely necessary.