Late running services turning back short of destination

[deltic08]

I was killing two hours on York station this afternoon while my wife was at St John University.

Northbound trains from KX were very late due to a fatality near Stevenage. TPE services from Leeds were also 15-20 late. Within an hour of each other a Scarborough train was announced it was not going to Seamer and Scarborough but turning back at Malton and a Newcastle was not calling at Durham, Chester-Le-Street and Newcastle as it was turning back at Darlington.

Is this acceptable as in the case of Scarborough passengers they only have one service per hour?

 

[bramling]

I was killing two hours on York station this afternoon while my wife was at St John University.

Northbound trains from KX were very late due to a fatality near Stevenage. TPE services from Leeds were also 15-20 late. Within an hour of each other a Scarborough train was announced it was not going to Seamer and Scarborough but turning back at Malton and a Newcastle was not calling at Durham, Chester-Le-Street and Newcastle as it was turning back at Darlington.

Is this acceptable as in the case of Scarborough passengers they only have one service per hour?

Whether it’s acceptable or not, it’s notoriously common for a late running TPE to go round at Malton.

 

[Surreytraveller]

Whether it’s acceptable or not, it’s notoriously common for a late running TPE to go round at Malton.

If it doesn't, then the disruption will snowball and get a lot worse, and affect a lot more people

 

[Y Ddraig Coch]

It happens a lot on Llandudno bound trains in times of delay. They will terminate and turn at Llandudno Junction.

As it was happening so often ATW tried to stop this by making the Manchester - Llandudno - Manchester trains go Manchester - Llandudno - Llandudno Junction - Llandudno - Manchester.

By doing this if the train was running very late they would just cancel the Llandudno - Llandudno Junction shuttle part of the journey and leave Llandudno for Manchester on time.

This worked quite well as the Manchester trains could end being very late arriving at Llandudno and only had a short turnaround.

 

[yorkie]

Is this acceptable as in the case of Scarborough passengers they only have one service per hour?

It is the correct decision, given the constraints of the limited turnaround, as it ensured the next working was on time, which is quite important given it's getting on for peak time from Leeds and is certainly a peak time service from Manchester to Liverpool.

If you are asking if the turnarounds should be longer, or if there should be a more frequent service, these are both totally separate matters, but in terms of the day to day operational decisions, I think it's correct to cancel one train in this manner.

What would be a big concern is if they cancelled consecutive trains; that would cause some passengers to be delayed by 2 hours instead of 1 which would be very difficult to justify, but I can't imagine they'd do that lightly.

 

[DarloRich]

It is the correct decision, given the constraints of the limited turnaround, as it ensured the next working was on time, which is quite important given it's getting on for peak time from Leeds and is certainly a peak time service from Manchester to Liverpool.

If you are asking if the turnarounds should be longer, or if there should be a more frequent service, these are both totally separate matters, but in terms of the day to day operational decisions, I think it's correct to cancel one train in this manner.

What would be a big concern is if they cancelled consecutive trains; that would cause some passengers to be delayed by 2 hours instead of 1 which would be very difficult to justify, but I can't imagine they'd do that lightly.

Which, I think, is the correct answer. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.

 

[PHILIPE]

It is rife in many areas. TFW regularly miss stops in the event of late running in the Cardiff Valleys and at Barry. With trains running at 5 minute intervals through Cardiff, the service would be unrecognisible by the end of the day if such steps were not taken.

The topic was previously discussed a few months ago:-

www.railforums.co.uk/threads/trains-across-britain-missed-stops-160-times-a-day-bbc-reports.163277

 

[30907]

Whether it’s acceptable or not, it’s notoriously common for a late running TPE to go round at Malton.

My impression (not as a daily user) is that they are much less prone to turning at Malton than they were, but the mid afternoon trains west are particularly vulnerable because of the evening peak issue.

 

[DelW]

Which, I think, is the correct answer. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.

I can see the logic, but it's very annoying when you're one of the ones adversely affected...

A few years ago, a group of friends and I were going for a day out by rail, boarding the same train at different stations. Unfortunately it was delayed, they got on OK but it was then decided that it would skip the next few stations including mine, so I had to stand on the platform and watch them fly past. I had a further half hour wait for a slower train, and it properly b*gg*r*d up my day as it took me a long while to catch the rest of the group up. Since SWT didn't do delay repay I couldn't even claim any compensation.

 

[bramling]

Which, I think, is the correct answer. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.

The trouble in this case is that it does have a disproportionately bad impact on people heading for Seamer and Scarborough, with Scarborough in particular being quite a major destination, and with the route having no other alternative rail service at this time. If road transport isn't provided then there's the risk of the following train being crowded, and it certainly doesn't seem to be unheard of for consecutive trains to go round at Malton.

The York-Scarborough Northern service will no doubt ease the issue, but the real solution is of course finding a way of having a longer TPE turnround time at Scarborough. I know that's easier written than done.

 

[PHILIPE]

During 2002 XC Operation Princess was in operation and this resulted in heavy congestion between Birmingham New St and Derby. At the time Matlock services were starting back from Birmingham New St and getting caught up in the crossfire. The outcome of this was that the hourly Matlock service was often turned back at Derby and resulted in examples of Matlock losing their service for two to three hours.

 

[Kite159]

Which, I think, is the correct answer. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.

So basically screw anybody wanting to travel to/from Scarborough with an hour+ wait for the next train? Just so a few people in Manchester can board a slightly faster train to Liverpool (using northern only tickets).

At least those travelling towards Newcastle have alternative choices

No wonder why the bus/car industry is loving the new TPE timetable, all those former rail users deciding to give up on the unreliable network to travel by bus or private car, and once they swap it will be hard to get them back.

It wouldn't be so bad for those folk if Northern hadn't delayed the introduction of the hourly Scarborough - York services

 

[Darandio]

It's been going on for ages now, Scarborough turnbacks had a dedicated thread here I believe? It's not just Scarborough and Newcastle, they have also regularly turned back at Northallerton instead of proceeding on to Middlesbrough.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

It's been going on for ages now, Scarborough turnbacks had a dedicated thread here I believe? It's not just Scarborough and Newcastle, they have also regularly turned back at Northallerton instead of proceeding on to Middlesbrough.

It happens on the other side of the hills too: the semi-fast Piccadilly terminators are often turned at Stalybridge.
As for "the needs of the many" question, I'd argue that the needs of those without an alternative should outweigh the needs of those with one.

The issues with the short turnarounds should've been spotted during planning, even if the result was postponement of the move to 6tph: which knowing what we know now wouldn't neccessarily have been a bad thing!

 

[DarloRich]

I can see the logic, but it's very annoying when you're one of the ones adversely affected...

it happens to me as well. It is very frustrating but there is a bigger picture

So basically screw anybody wanting to travel to/from Scarborough with an hour+ wait for the next train? Just so a few people in Manchester can board a slightly faster train to Liverpool (using northern only tickets).

Yes. That is the blunt non emotive answer.

 

[Edders23]

Is it probably the case then that the TOC could face stiffer penalties for not turning a train short and adding to disruption than the cost of compensating or providing alternative transport to affected passengers

 

[Esker-pades]

Is it probably the case then that the TOC could face stiffer penalties for not turning a train short and adding to disruption than the cost of compensating or providing alternative transport to affected passengers

I thought it was the signaller not the TOC that makes the decision to turn back short.

 

[Essexman]

In practice the additional delay caused to passengers by turning a train back is often less than it seems, for example if the train is 40 minutes late and the next one on time, turning back will only delay passengers by a further 20 minutes on an hourly service.

 

[deltic08]

It is the correct decision, given the constraints of the limited turnaround, as it ensured the next working was on time, which is quite important given it's getting on for peak time from Leeds and is certainly a peak time service from Manchester to Liverpool.

If you are asking if the turnarounds should be longer, or if there should be a more frequent service, these are both totally separate matters, but in terms of the day to day operational decisions, I think it's correct to cancel one train in this manner.

What would be a big concern is if they cancelled consecutive trains; that would cause some passengers to be delayed by 2 hours instead of 1 which would be very difficult to justify, but I can't imagine they'd do that lightly.

But it was a full train leaving York, the majority would be for Scarborough who wouldn't reach their destination. Many on the platform didn't join the train and waited for the next one. I think it is more a case of money saving as it was only 18 minutes late leaving York. That could be 15 minutes late at Scarborough.

Are turnrounds that tight that a 15 minute late running train has to be turned back 30 miles short of destination? Are TPE trains turned back at Manchester? No.

East Coast trains were over an hour late northbound and these were not being turned back at Newcastle or Berwick or Dunbar. The Hjghland Chieftain was 80 late. They were also 20 minutes late southbound but no question of turning back short of London.

 

[PHILIPE]

There was a turn back at Barry this morning due late running leaving school children stranded at the Island. This has become a regular truncation only after re-signalling and another platform introduced at Barry. Up until then anything turning back at Barry had to go part way in the direction of the Island anyway to crossover and reverse but now can turn straight back from the new Platform 3, a move which has facilitated the turning back

 

[deltic08]

In practice the additional delay caused to passengers by turning a train back is often less than it seems, for example if the train is 40 minutes late and the next one on time, turning back will only delay passengers by a further 20 minutes on an hourly service.

Not only 40 minutes late but turfed out onto a following service. Customer care seems to have gone out of the window.

On my same visit to York, the XC service to Glasgow Central was announced as a change of platform as it was rolling in. Anyone disabled like myself could not have used the lifts and subways in time from platform 9 to 11 to catch it, but no platform staff asked.. I just happened to be transferring myself to platform 11, simultaneously as the rush happened, to have my first look at a class 88 stabled in the loco dock outside the new operations centre. As I came up in the lift the last coach of the Voyager went by. I would have missed it and nobody cared.

 

[bramling]

In practice the additional delay caused to passengers by turning a train back is often less than it seems, for example if the train is 40 minutes late and the next one on time, turning back will only delay passengers by a further 20 minutes on an hourly service.

Added on top of the existing 40 minute delay that means they're now delayed by 60 minutes. Add in to that the possibility of the following train being crowded due to having two trains worth of people on it - especially on a route where many travel to the final destination.

As I posted elsewhere, no easy answer, however not by any means a desirable situation for passengers.

In an ideal world they would have an extra unit in the system which would extend the layover at Scarborough. I'm guessing that at the moment that extra unit probably doesn't readily exist. Then the crewing arrangements need to be considered - no point having an extra unit if the crews don't have recovery time too, so would doubtless need an increase in drivers and conductors.

I could see a merit in running in self-contained York-Scarborough shuttle, with passengers connecting from the remaining TPE service at York. However people like through journeys, and people would still be delayed if their connecting train is late, so it doesn't really solve the root cause. Likewise it also would likely require additional units and crews.

It's an unsatisfactory situation for sure, and one which is hopefully receiving management attention to find some kind of solution.

 

[Essexman]

I think each case has to be decided on its merits but obviously with guidelines. As long as the decision is based on what is best for customers and not minimising fines for TOC delay minutes.

 

[northwichcat]

There's also driver hours to consider and in the case of late and weekend services a service running very late might mean a section of the route has been closed for engineering works.

 

[ValleyLines142]

TPE services through Victoria to the Airport regularly turn back at Piccadilly due to late-running and the sheer congestion on the narrow strip from Deansgate to Piccadilly.

 

[Edders23]

I think each case has to be decided on its merits but obviously with guidelines. As long as the decision is based on what is best for customers and not minimising fines for TOC delay minutes.

so the first duty of a TOC is to it's customers or shareholders ?

 

[takno]

Not only 40 minutes late but turfed out onto a following service. Customer care seems to have gone out of the window.

On my same visit to York, the XC service to Glasgow Central was announced as a change of platform as it was rolling in. Anyone disabled like myself could not have used the lifts and subways in time from platform 9 to 11 to catch it, but no platform staff asked.. I just happened to be transferring myself to platform 11, simultaneously as the rush happened, to have my first look at a class 88 stabled in the loco dock outside the new operations centre. As I came up in the lift the last coach of the Voyager went by. I would have missed it and nobody cared.

They seem to be doing that quite a lot at the moment. It would be a clever bit of optimization if they decided and announced it 10 minutes before departure, but as it is any benefit is eaten up by waiting for passengers to change platform, and they still end up leaving people behind.

 

[Surreytraveller]

so the first duty of a TOC is to it's customers or shareholders ?

Neither. They just thash around trying to please some graduate with a spreadsheet.

 

[ComUtoR]

so the first duty of a TOC is to it's customers or shareholders ?

Or its Staff.

If the Driver needs to get home on time then the service gets terminated early/run back

 

[Taunton]

It is the correct decision, given the constraints of the limited turnaround, as it ensured the next working was on time

No, the correct decision is to allow adequate turnround time, JUST as used to happen not that many years ago, when such poor practice was, to me, unknown. It used to happen, maybe, when services were an hour or more late, possibly when the one behind was catching up, but every year we hear of less and less minutes delay, even less than 10, leading to this.

If you are asking if the turnarounds should be longer ... totally separate matters

Completely related.

A typical stupidity is the GWR service from Brighton, Southampton, Bristol, and to Worcester, threading across all sorts of junctions and conflicting services. But it then got extended a bit further still, to Malvern, with a quick turnround before the long haul back. This was done for no particular desire of those from the south coast to visit Malvern, but patently as an Orcats Raid on the local operator's revenue from Worcester to Malvern. And then it very regularly gets turned round short somewhere along the way.

We are regularly told here that trains cannot wait a minute for passengers at connecting points due to diagram tightness, and inded because those already in it are superior beings whose own appointments they are heading to are of concern and cannot be delayed, but it seems these thoughts go out of the window if it is operationally convenient to turn the service short.