GWR Class 800

[Railperf]

Perfect. Change the TMS to re-rate one back to 750hp and remove the speed limiter, then recreate the HST speed record run! Obviously this'd have to be done under a special track possession, just like the original run was, and it's doubtful the will to do that would exist on today's railway, but we can dream!

One thinks Branson would have used every opportunity to sell Voyagers at the launch of Virgin trains - back in the day. Imagine the publicity Virgin and Bombardier could have enjoyed at the time - beating the world diesel rail speed record of Britain's beloved HST. One wonders that this didn't happen for a number of reasons. Voyagers may not have been capable of such high speeds for technical reasons - or maybe commercially it didn't stack up to attempt such a stunt - with all the extra bureaucracy on the railways these days. Note GWR's most recent record attempt between Paddington and Reading was not much more than s standard run - with potential conflicting services ahead kept well out of the way to allow an unimpeded run.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I agree, it's exceedingly bright, and very loud.

Yes, the interior is cheap and nasty. The Electrostar interior is massively superior.

 

[tasky]

Yes, the interior is cheap and nasty. The Electrostar interior is massively superior.

The cynic in me wonders if the second class was deliberately made gross to, er... 'improve the first class travel proposition'. First class is fine (although a little on the dark side perhaps)

 

[cactustwirly]

The cynic in me wonders if the second class was deliberately made gross to, er... 'improve the first class travel proposition'. First class is fine (although a little on the dark side perhaps)

First isn't that great either...
If you took the first class and made it 2+2 then it'll be an intercity standard class

 

[superalbs]

I also notice the internal screens are very flickery.

 

[Railperf]

London Reading in 23 then Reading to Swindon in 23. This sounds like a new benchmark.

I will still maintain that you could close most of the HST to AC gap with a high performance DMU that isn't being deliberately throttled but this is still impressive.

Are there many non stop runs to Reading in 180s to compare to this?

The fastest class 180 timing in Railway Performance Society archive is 23 min 26 - but i haven't looked at the detail to understand how good or bad the run was. As a guide, a Class 180 can beat an HST to 10 miles by 3/4 of a minute, so not quite as fast as an 800 - but not too far behind. All things being equal you would expect a healthy class 180 running on all engines - and with a determined driver to achieve under 23 minutes in the right conditions.

Paddington to Reading in 23 isn't a new benchmark. Less than 22 minutes would be. The current timetable allows for a net running time of 24 mins - plus 1 min recovery time - which a healthy HST can achieve without trying as long as everything else is running to time and there are no network issues.

If an HST service is running to time - most drivers are running up to around 120mph and coasting for large distances to dissipate time. Hence many of our recent timings reflect this relaxed state of driving. I expected some extra recovery time in the timetable to reflect additional trackside works - but current schedules are way too easy for an HST.
Where linespeed is 125mph, an 800 will gain at least 1 minutes advantage over a 10 mile station start on electric mode. There is no evidence to suggest braking or dwell times have improved significantly yet - probably the most experienced HST drivers can more confidently bring these to a stand than an 800?

As for Reading to Swindon - 23mins 14 was the best HST modern run under 'todays' driving standards. An 800 should be able to topple that by at least 1 minute , less the 20 seconds time loss changeover from electric to diesel and then back to electric at Stevenson. So somewhere in the region of 22.5 mins would be the hoped for benchmark. Probably only achievable if the train is running significantly late to incentivise the driver to run 'flat out' .
Current running time is 26.5 minutes which includes 2 min recovery. So HST's are set a 24.5 minute running time - even though they can easily do it in 1 and a quarter minute less! This is why the current GWR timetable ranks pretty low in regards to average speeds compared to the other 125mph services!

 

[Bletchleyite]

I also notice the internal screens are very flickery.

Cheap and nasty, as I said

FWIW replacing that strip with dark green and new seat covers in moquette would help a lot.

 

[43096]

Cheap and nasty, as I said

But not cheap for the passengers and taxpayers who are funding DfT’s bungling incompetence.

 

[samuelmorris]

First isn't that great either...
If you took the first class and made it 2+2 then it'll be an intercity standard class

Indeed, I think that's fair. The 1st class offering is not to the same standard as the HSTs, that's pretty much fact. Whether that's actually an issue or not is personal opinion, but it does mean that the 'standard is bad to make more people use first' argument is, I would say, invalid.

I also notice the internal screens are very flickery.

I can't say I've noticed this, they're the same displays as the 395s but with green instead of orange text (odd, as I thought orange was a PRM requirement). Are you sure you're not taking that from online footage? You can't record electronic displays with a camera as the refresh rate mismatch means they'll look flickery when they're not in real life (same effect with LED rear lights that trains now have).

 

[Bletchleyite]

No, they are definitely flickery in person. Different people have different levels of persistence of vision, though, so you may well not be able to see it.

I’m on one now.

FWIW the seats are less rubbish now they have had chance to collapse a bit, but they are still rubbish (and filthy).

Edit, I take that back, it’s now collapsed to the extent that my backside can feel the metal support. Cheap rubbish.

 

[samuelmorris]

Fair enough, I stand corrected, it's not something I noticed (and I usually spot these things - e.g. the colourwheel flicker on DLP projectors drives me nuts whereas a lot of people don't notice it) Does it affect all units equally?

 

[TRAX]

Cheap and nasty, as I said

FWIW replacing that strip with dark green and new seat covers in moquette would help a lot.

Absolutely. Nothing screams cheap more than flashy fluo colours.

 

[tasky]

Cheap and nasty, as I said

FWIW replacing that strip with dark green and new seat covers in moquette would help a lot.

Agreed, the bright-green isn't even on-brand for GWR, which is the usual reason people use silly colours for things (Virgin...)

 

[spark001uk]

Cheap and nasty, as I said

FWIW replacing that strip with dark green and new seat covers in moquette would help a lot.

Agreed. The light grey seat covers were not a good idea, they show every little stain up badly, the dark moquette is MUCH better.
It's the little things that make it look tacky too, like the positioning of the retractable coat hooks that don't match up. Some of them are in such a position that's it's not practical to use them at all ! Unless of course they were fitted in mind of a seating layout that was later changed.

 

[Mintona]

It will be interesting to see how the extra Bristols that run non stop to Parkway (I think?) will do, but getting a clear run through Reading is a challenge.

I look forward to seeing how close to an hour we can get to Bristol Parkway in. I reckon 1hr 5mins should be doable.

 

[jimm]

A point about short platforms - why aren't announcements made before people join the train so they are in the correct part of the train for alighting?

They seem to be working on some sort of CIS capability for this - at my local station on the Cotswold Line the platform screens are displaying messages ahead of departure time saying that if you are going to places with very short platforms, e.g. Honeybourne, whereabouts you should board the train to be in right coaches to get off, but how widespread the application of this sort of message is at present, I don't know.

Agreed, the bright-green isn't even on-brand for GWR, which is the usual reason people use silly colours for things (Virgin...)

I suggest you look at the GWR website and move along the menu bar items to the right of the red 'Buy tickets' button, or look at a GWR pocket timetable and see which colour is used to highlight Saturday services and named express trains, before incorrectly claiming this shade of green is not part of GWR branding. Its use may be limited, but it is clearly one of the approved colours.

 

[JN114]

Its use may be limited, but it is clearly one of the approved colours.

Or it’s been adopted by GWR due to its presence on IETs

 

[Ethano92]

I suggest you look at the GWR website and move along the menu bar items to the right of the red 'Buy tickets' button, or look at a GWR pocket timetable and see which colour is used to highlight Saturday services and named express trains, before incorrectly claiming this shade of green is not part of GWR branding. Its use may be limited, but it is clearly one of the approved colours.

Genuinely can't tell if this comment is supposed to sound sarcastic or not

 

[gallafent]

(re internal screens being flickery)
I can't say I've noticed this, they're the same displays as the 395s but with green instead of orange text (odd, as I thought orange was a PRM requirement). Are you sure you're not taking that from online footage? You can't record electronic displays with a camera as the refresh rate mismatch means they'll look flickery when they're not in real life (same effect with LED rear lights that trains now have).

I've noticed it (using my eyes rather than a camera! …) — they're definitely a bit uncomfortable to look at even directly, and are particularly distracting when seen out of the corner of one's eye (it's more noticeable in that position due to the different types of photoreceptor in that area of the retina cf the central part — https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flicker_fusion_threshold ).

 

[northernbelle]

Or it’s been adopted by GWR due to its presence on IETs

Genuinely can't tell if this comment is supposed to sound sarcastic or not

The light green is, and always has been, part of GWR's brand pallet.

The IETs have this green as a result of that, not the other way round. The green headrests on other GWR fleets - such as the 387s - employ the same green albeit with a darker moquette pile mixed in to give the appearance of being slightly darker.

Have a look at the external doors on the unit fleets - these have a green stripe in the same colour. Attached for reference.

 

[bastien]

I genuinely did not expect to be adding 'the wrong shade of green' to my Spurious Reasons to Hate New Rolling Stock spreadsheet. Well done, everyone concerned.

 

[jimm]

It's not the first time someone has stated in this thread that the lime green was not part of GWR's corporate identity and I have pointed out that it is. I expect it will be repeated again soon.

 

[TRAX]

It's used as an accent colour. It's what it's used for in timetables, on the exterior of the trains, and that is what the interior lime stripe is, and it does what it was designed for perfectly: accent.
Starting from that, it's up to each and every one of us to judge if that accent colour is aesthetically pleasing or not.
It's only a matter of taste. Taste is often something we'd like to eliminate from forums, but this will never happen.
What should be eliminated though, is statements of the "you can't have that opinion" kind.

 

[jayah]

So you are telling me that GWR should’ve have ordered 93 9 car (640 seats) units for all off peak Cheltenham’s, Bedwyns, Bristol Fast, Cotswolds Line, Oxfords and Plymouth to Penzance? No. The new timetable will show how the order will work practically.



You are comparing it to it’s replacement. Is that not fair considering, HSTs are the best trains on the planet to some and IETs are worse than every train to ever be made? I think not.



It needs to be in the right depot at night. It needs available crew to take the empty stock route. And then, how can you practically choose a train?

Sometimes Bristol’s can be quite busy where as sometimes they can be empty. Same with Cheltenham’s and the Cotswolds, it’s all down to the time of year and what’s happening.

They need to plan to have adequate contingency. That means winding down the planned requirement. Then you aren't a hostage to problems with a single unit at a single depot which is where it seems to be going wrong now.

 

[jayah]

3mins is the threshold for a TIN, I believe.

And in response to an earlier point about MTIN being a daft measure, delay per incident is used as well. See the Modern Railways “Golden Spanners” awards.

You need a single metric that includes both.

 

[43096]

You need a single metric that includes both.

Not for the first time, the industry disagrees with you.

 

[JN114]

The light green is, and always has been, part of GWR's brand pallet.

I’m well aware, I was overplaying the cynicism for humorous effect.

 

[JN114]

3mins is the threshold for a TIN, I believe.

It is - but let’s be sure we’re not crossing wires here, a TIN - Trust Incident Number - is given to any delay of over 3 minutes; not just rolling stock tech issues.

MTIN - Miles per Technical INcident (sic) is the number of miles operated by a rolling stock fleet divided by the number of “casualty” technical events - technical issues or similar that cause 5 minutes delay or a cancellation. It might even be more than 5 mins but it definitely isn’t less.

Quite how you’d combine MTIN and average delay per incident into one reliability metric I can’t quite fathom.

 

[jayah]

It is - but let’s be sure we’re not crossing wires here, a TIN - Trust Incident Number - is given to any delay of over 3 minutes; not just rolling stock tech issues.

MTIN - Miles per Technical INcident (sic) is the number of miles operated by a rolling stock fleet divided by the number of “casualty” technical events - technical issues or similar that cause 5 minutes delay or a cancellation. It might even be more than 5 mins but it definitely isn’t less.

Quite how you’d combine MTIN and average delay per incident into one reliability metric I can’t quite fathom.

Minutes of technical delay per 1,000 miles operated? Granted miles have their own weaknesses but far better than MTIN.

 

[jayah]

Not for the first time, the industry disagrees with you.

I didn't realise you spoke for the industry?

MTIN is a totally useless metric. As the railways are in a state of near continuous crisis and catastrophe, disagreement is probably a complement.

As mentioned already they would be much better looking at the reliability of their infrastructure as in terms of total delay minutes caused it is many times more.

If pacers can result in some of the highest PPM scores on the 5min threshold, there is a suggestion people perhaps get a bit too excited about lots of very low impact rolling stock delays.