Northern in crisis talks?

[northwichcat]

No, my reference to TUPE was not about guards, it was about management.

It wasn't in response to you or what you were discussing. I was replying to @ComUtoR's response to @Harpers Tate's post, which itself was in response to @Carlisle saying

in the real privatised world redundancy notices would have already been issued to those guards refusing to sign new contracts and the process of recruiting new staff would all ready be under way, and drivers fully aware they’ll follow suit if the refuse to cooperate.

So it was about guards not management.

 

[ComUtoR]

You've gone off on a tangent.

Agreed and I didn't see Carlisles' post.

Outside the rail industry it's likely guards would be given notice of potential redundancies and then offered an alternative role in lieu of redundancy.

Agreed, and I know someone who was just made redundant so I'm aware of the procedure. There is also another, much easier, way to screw staff with their contracts. I've done, and hated myself for doing so. (left that company thankfully)

 

[northwichcat]

There is also another, much easier, way to screw staff with their contracts. I've done, and hated myself for doing so. (left that company thankfully)

Set up a new company and put the old one in to administration?

 

[ComUtoR]

Very variable, (...) so they can pretty much charge what they can get away with.

Agreed, with the additional belief that fares with spike and become unsustainable. They would milk the passenger for every penny. Granted they would need some way to keep passengers but the railway is a captive market and it really would become 'service' where you pay and have little recourse to complain. It will be like it or take your business elsewhere.

They would also walk away if it wasn't financially viable.

 

[Class37.4]

Bit more detail on Rail News, claiming The Telegraph as the source



https://www.railnews.co.uk/news/2018/11/05-northern-in-crisis-talks-over.html

Interesting Mick Cash calls the franchise a basket case getting too much money from the state but claims it would be better as a state owned franchise.

I would say Mick Cash response is about as predictable as the next day will be the 6th November.

 

[Darandio]

I wondered when 'basket case' would be used again, unless i've overlooked an announcement it seemed to have disappeared from the last few press releases. RMT are a laughing stock and an embarassment to it's membership.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Remember Patrick McLoughlin was in charge when the franchise terms were agreed upon. Grayling's responsible for managing the chaos and finding a solution (which I accept he hasn't done) opposed to being responsible for Network Rail having agreed deadlines they had no chance of meeting.

Quite right, I'll rephrase then:

The blame lies at DfT's door.

 

[js1000]

I said months ago after the timetable debacle Northern would be in serious financial trouble by the end of year.

I've got about 4 delay repay claims on the go with them for delays/cancellations on the Styal Line between Manchester Airport and Piccadilly. It's been atrocious since the new timetable in May thanks to the platform 13 & 14 situation.

I can't stand the millions of people who complain about the TOCs/private structure o the railways but never claim compensation. If everyone actually claimed compensation for poor performance all franchises would eventually go bust.

The best thing that can happen is the government take its over because they'll be forced into running a decent service given the political ramifications. No private company will want the Northern franchise at the moment given the timetable chaos and Grayling will no longer be able to palm the problems off and blame the TOC.

 

[ainsworth74]

The best thing that can happen is the government take its over because they'll be forced into running a decent service given the political ramifications.

Says who? (Ignoring that if it was that easy don't you think that Northern would have already done it?)

 

[js1000]

Says who? (Ignoring that if it was that easy don't you think that Northern would have already done it?)

I think Arriva have been asleep at the wheel. They, as well as Network Rail and the DfT, have handled the timetable situation poorly.

The misery and uncertainty they inflict on me and thousands of others almost everyday is a joke. I cannot defend them. We used to have a decent service once upon a time.

It seems thousands of other commuters have given up completely and dwindling passenger numbers + compensation claims is driving them into the ground.

 

[B&I]

How much do you reckon the ticket price would be if the TOCs didn't have a subsidy and each TOC was run like a real business ?

Probably zero, as without subsidy nothing would run. But I'm not arguing for cut-throat commercial competition. I'm arguing for a public service to be run as a public service, not as a make-believe private enterprise

 

[td97]

The best thing that can happen is the government take its over because they'll be forced into running a decent service given the political ramifications.

And LNER have a lower PPM than VTEC for the equivalent year-on-year periods ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[B&I]

Bit more detail on Rail News, claiming The Telegraph as the source



https://www.railnews.co.uk/news/2018/11/05-northern-in-crisis-talks-over.html

Interesting Mick Cash calls the franchise a basket case getting too much money from the state but claims it would be better as a state owned franchise.

It's a basket case as a private company precisely because it is financially dependent on the state

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Probably zero, as without subsidy nothing would run. But I'm not arguing for cut-throat commercial competition. I'm arguing for a public service to be run as a public service, not as a make-believe private enterprise

I really do like the way you crafted that response. Perfect.

 

[theblackwatch]

And LNER have a lower PPM than VTEC for the equivalent year-on-year periods ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

And one of the early things they did when taking over from VTEC was cancel a number of services...

 

[LOL The Irony]

What a surprise. The swashbucklers of free enterprise, rather than take a well-deserved financial hit as a result of their inability to run a rail service, shake their begging bowls at the taxpayer once more. How much longer will we persist with this charade ?

TBF they're a piggy in the middle in both situations and are baring the brunt of everything (less so on the DCO front but still).

 

[LOL The Irony]

Interesting Mick Cash calls the franchise a basket case getting too much money from the state but claims it would be better as a state owned franchise.

bUt it'S ThE prInCiplE beHiNd iT!

 

[185]

I think this thread needs merging into the main Northern DOO thread, as it seems the discussion is entirely about the [RMT/ARRIVA]* are akin to a satanic cult.

It appears there is little discussion of the actual thread topic, Northern seemingly blaming a plethora of reasons (Brexit, Putin, the apocalypse)* for a cash shortfall which was probably caused by overambitious bidding.

*delete as appropriate

 

[js1000]

The rot with Northern set in pretty much as soon as Arriva took over, before which Northern were actually doing a very good job with the limited resources they had.

Generally the ‘old’ Northern had a friendly feel about it but now it all feels like the passenger is an inconvenience rather than a customer! Quite hard to explain in written form but as a passenger that travels on at least four services five days a week the difference becomes very noticeable!

Arriva’s top priority these days seems to be revenue,revenue,revenue, yet if you need to get some money out of their pockets for any reason expect to be waiting up to 3 months!

Whilst I fully support trying to sort out the issue of fare dodgers their ‘promise to pay’ scheme is almost laughable in how rushed through it seems to have been thought out and how a lot of staff don’t seem to fully understand it let alone passengers!

Most of the guards seem to be trying their best but their morale must be virtually non existent these days.

They should have introduced new trains before implementing the 'Buy before you board' policy across the whole network in 2020. I'm supportive of the policy but it's difficult to implement without actually improving anything on the network. I know the intention was always December 2018 for the first new rolling stock but they really could have done with this 6 months ago. To say Arriva aren't culpable or haven't scored some own goals is pushing it somewhat. As you say: revenue, revenue, revenue.

 

[Darandio]

I think this thread needs merging into the main Northern DOO thread, as it seems the discussion is entirely about the [RMT/ARRIVA]* are akin to a satanic cult.

Are you saying the RMT aren't a satanic cult?

 

[plcd1]

The best thing that can happen is the government take its over because they'll be forced into running a decent service given the political ramifications.

Made next to no difference in BR days when "everyone" allegedly owned the railways. Makes little difference with TfL control and political accountability via the Mayor and oversight via the London Assembly. We have had massive issues with rolling stock and electrification works in London and barely a thing has been said in public about any of this. Yes some politicians have jumped up and down but people still face regular delays and broken down trains. the "jumping up and down" has not brought about a faster resolution of any of the problems. TfL are allegedly far more "hands on" with their rail contractors but you wouldn't know it if you were standing on a jam packed platform due to delayed trains.

Putting Whitehall in greater charge of railways in Northern England will not provide any sort of panacea. It is very difficult to actually work out what form of new structure would stand a reasonable chance (note that unambitious phrasing) of meeting the massive and conflicting demands of finance, reliability, puntuality and what passengers / politicians actually expect the railway to do. Do any of them actually have any sort of coherent clue what they want? I doubt it. And we wonder why so many TOCs are in trouble?!

 

[HullRailMan]

There are plenty of things that are with Northern's control that would potentially put passengers off. Rolling stock allocation for example - Sheffield to Bridlington/Scarborough has been class 158's for years. Now it's not unusual to see 144's or 150's, neither of which is suitable for a 2.5-3 hour journey. I imagine some passengers won't want to repeat that experience so will ditch the train. The usual twitter response is "we allocate what is available" with a promise of improvements to come but in the mean time it's a worse service.

 

[Dr Hoo]

Probably zero, as without subsidy nothing would run. But I'm not arguing for cut-throat commercial competition. I'm arguing for a public service to be run as a public service, not as a make-believe private enterprise

Much as I agree with the sentiment (and ChiefPlanner’s endorsement of it also) i still can’t help going back to my own days as a Regional Railways Service Group Manager. Particularly on the quieter routes (i.e. not ‘Express’) it was a case of fewer trains composed of fewer vehicles and real fare increases dripped through every January, May and September so nobody could really keep track of what was going on. The results on ‘Northern’ routes such as Whitby, Knottingley-Goole, Sheffield-York via Pontefract and Skipton-Lancaster can be seen to this day.
The service on my local line - the Hope Valley - is arguably the best ever thanks to the current franchise agreement. We just need it to run on Saturdays, the Dore enhancement scheme to be completed, replacement of the Pacers and so forth.

 

[Andyh82]

It isn’t a black and white situation that some people here seem to be only able to discuss.

Whereas it’s fair to say Arriva have made mistakes themselves and haven’t handled things as well as they should.

It’s also fair to say that they have had to put up with a long list or failures beyond their control.

The NW engineering over running, the late arrival of cascaded trains, the new timetables being pushed back, then partially implemented badly, then abandoned, reinstated and then the next phase pushed back again. The cancellation of other infrastructure projects, and biggest of all, the long running industrial action that will have been much more drawn out and damaging than anyone would have imagined.

I said only the other day that I wondered why Arriva were sticking with it. If they knew it wouldn’t effect they ability to win other easier franchises in the future, I’m sure they’d throw the towel in.

 

[yorkie]

Can we please stick to the topic Northern in crisis talks and not widen it to discuss the merits of privatisation vs nationalisation; the topic has been done to death in many threads already.

 

[philthetube]

The risk is that the new trains, that should be a game changer, will arrive into service at a reputational low point and any benefit of these new trains will be lost. Personally I think northern have been dealt a weaker hand than they would like but they have failed to play the cards they have been handed as well as they could.

They new the cards they were being dealt when they bid.

 

[bnm]

Are you saying the RMT aren't a satanic cult?

Quite a set of antlers matey at the back has!

 

[Intermodal]

There are plenty of things that are with Northern's control that would potentially put passengers off. Rolling stock allocation for example - Sheffield to Bridlington/Scarborough has been class 158's for years. Now it's not unusual to see 144's or 150's, neither of which is suitable for a 2.5-3 hour journey. I imagine some passengers won't want to repeat that experience so will ditch the train. The usual twitter response is "we allocate what is available" with a promise of improvements to come but in the mean time it's a worse service.

So you think that they are purposefully allocating worse stock because that's just what they feel like doing on the day and they think nobody will notice? Are you suggesting that Northern have a whole raft of 'good' rolling stock in reserve that they just refuse to use? That the DfT actually gave them surplus new stock years ago and they haven't mentioned it? Tell me more!

 

[Puffing Devil]

Happy to privatise any profits but want to nationalise any losses.

It's this, though running trains from Crewe to Liverpool via Manchester that nobody wants to use south of Manchester other than to travel to Manchester doesn't help.

 

[Mag_seven]

It's this, though running trains from Crewe to Liverpool via Manchester that nobody wants to use south of Manchester other than to travel to Manchester doesn't help.

Actually I did find that service of use last week to get from directly from Wilmslow to Manchester Airport connecting off a train from Euston!