To what are passengers entitled if a train is too full to board?

[pt_mad]

GTR offer Delay Repay if the train you wanted to catch is impossible to board due to overcrowding. I assume they'd check CCTV to verify any claims, and payouts are the same as if the train was cancelled.

But if you were going to miss your meeting and traveling was pointless you'd probably be seeking a refund.

 

[PHILIPE]

TFW will pay "Delay Repay" if a passenger is an hour or more late on arrival at destination. They will not pay for anything but you could try and, on occasions, they may pay something as a good will gesture.

Apologies. Should have said half an hour. I had another TOC in my head. Could go to quarter of an hour in the future with the new franchise

 

[Starmill]

What matters is the delay to one's journey, rather than a delay to a train as such. So this is clearly covered under the usual Delay Repay scheme.

I would definitely write it in as an email of complaint, with it made clear that a lengthy delay was experiences. Did she have a seat reservation? This is recommended.

 

[ChrisC]

Would the situation be any different if a passenger had reserved a seat on a train that is leaving passengers behind due to overcrowding? Would you have more of a case for being allowed to board than someone who doesn’t have a reserved seat?
I’ve sometimes wondered this when I have struggled to board an overcrowded EMT Liverpool to Norwich train at Manchester Picadilly.

Hadn’t seen the post above!

 

[_toommm_]

Would the situation be any different if a passenger had reserved a seat on a train that is leaving passengers behind due to overcrowding? Would you have more of a case for being allowed to board than someone who doesn’t have a reserved seat?
I’ve sometimes wondered this when I have struggled to board an overcrowded EMT Liverpool to Norwich train at Manchester Picadilly.

Hadn’t seen the post above!

Not necessarily. I can't foresee platform staff or a guard looking at tickets and deciding who can and can't board, thus creating a daily scrum for some trains.

 

[_toommm_]

What matters is the delay to one's journey, rather than a delay to a train as such. So this is clearly covered under the usual Delay Repay scheme.

I would definitely write it in as an email of complaint, with it made clear that a lengthy delay was experiences. Did she have a seat reservation? This is recommended.

Do TfW now do proper Delay Repay, or are they still under the old scheme from Arriva's days?

 

[pt_mad]

Not necessarily. I can't foresee platform staff or a guard looking at tickets and deciding who can and can't board, thus creating a daily scrum for some trains.

Indeed. As seen on some of these railway reality TV shows, there is many a time a service is full and standing at a London terminal, and passengers with seat reservations are complaining to staff that they can't board or claim their seat. Staff have to apologise and they board the next service.

Is a seat reservation complimentary or is it a guarantee (i.e. a passenger's right or entitlement) once it's booked?

 

[_toommm_]

Indeed. As seen on some of these railway reality TV shows, there is many a time a service is full and standing at a London terminal, and passengers with seat reservations are complaining to staff that they can't board or claim their seat. Staff have to apologise and they board the next service.

Is a seat reservation complimentary or is it a guarantee (i.e. a passenger's right or entitlement) once it's booked?

It's complimentary - hence why they have a cost of £0.00 written on the ticket. It sounds ridiculous, but the train ticket only gives you the right to get from A to B via wherever you're routed. You could be in cattle class on a Voyager but the TOC has still fulfilled their obligations.

 

[pt_mad]

It's complimentary - hence why they have a cost of £0.00 written on the ticket. It sounds ridiculous, but the train ticket only gives you the right to get from A to B via wherever you're routed. You could be in cattle class on a Voyager but the TOC has still fulfilled their obligations.

That's as I thought.

Although some passengers complain to staff saying that they've paid for a seat or that all these passengers have paid for a seat. Something leads them to that misapprehension.

 

[_toommm_]

That's as I thought.

Although some passengers complain to staff saying that they've paid for a seat. Something leads them to that misaprehension.

They probably see with advance tickets that there's the ticket costing XX:XX, plus a seat reservation being mandatory with advances, but don't realise the seat reservation costs nothing, and that I could tweet a TOC and get a reservation without actually paying for a ticket. It's a common misconception, and would be a good subject for that thread!

 

[pt_mad]

They probably see with advance tickets that there's the ticket costing XX:XX, plus a seat reservation being mandatory with advances, but don't realise the seat reservation costs nothing, and that I could tweet a TOC and get a reservation without actually paying for a ticket. It's a common misconception, and would be a good subject for that thread!

It also means Tocs have less pressure on them to provide additional rolling stock when services are full. Because there's no obligation or requirement that passengers should be seated rather than standing in the aisles. Although what leisure passenger, when they plan a train trip with their mates, pictures in their mind that they'll be standing maybe all the way. Most people would probably picture sitting at a table of 4 comfortably with their friends. And obviously it would be pure dissapointment on the day.

 

[_toommm_]

It also means Tocs have less pressure on them to provide additional rolling stock when services are full. Because there's no obligation or requirement that passengers should be seated rather than standing in the aisles.

I do feel sorry for train staff in that respect - it sounds ridiculous saying some of this out loud!

 

[pt_mad]

I do feel sorry for train staff in that respect - it sounds ridiculous saying some of this out loud!

And notice no advertisement whatsoever for any train operator seems to show any passengers standing. They are nealry always sitting down with no passengers seen standing. If it's someone by themselves like on some of the VT ads, they are usually in a 2 by themselves.

Perhaps this adds to the misapprehension that many customers think they pay to be sat down when they purchase their ticket?

 

[_toommm_]

And notice no advertisement whatsoever for any train operator seems to show any passengers standing. They are nealry always sitting down with no passengers seen standing. If it's someone by themselves like on some of the VT ads, they are usually in a 2 by themselves.

Perhaps this adds to the misapprehension that many customers think they pay to be sat down when they purchase their ticket?

Or because it's that ridiculous to have to say out loud! The TOCs must think it's stupid - I received a 75% refund from East Midlands on a Cardiff to Sheffield advance just because I had to stand for 50 minutes from Stockport to Sheffield - I doubt they even made that much money on the advance anyway!

 

[krus_aragon]

According to this report CAF are providing only 3 car and 2 car units so not much of an improvement, if any.

"CAF will build 51 two-car and 26 three-car diesel trains while Stadler will make 35 regional trains - with three or four carriages - and 36 three-car trams."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-45197544

Received forum wisdom is that because it's been announced that the new first class service will be between Manchester and Swansea, even though there will still be a through service to Carmarthen/Milford, that there will be two units coupled together for Manchester-Swansea (with First Class on one), and only one unit will continue west. On that basis, there'd have to be 4-6 cars between Manchester and Swansea.

(There's further conjecture that it's the follow-on order of 10 2-car units that will have the first class accomodation, which would only be enough for a two-hourly provision. If so, the intervening hours' services could be operated by just a single unit.)

 

[pt_mad]

Or because it's that ridiculous to have to say out loud! The TOCs must think it's stupid - I received a 75% refund from East Midlands on a Cardiff to Sheffield advance just because I had to stand for 50 minutes from Stockport to Sheffield - I doubt they even made that much money on the advance anyway!

They probably don't think it's stupid, because some tocs have some spare units around but know passengers will be able to board the existing units but with standing passengers.

 

[krus_aragon]

Do TfW now do proper Delay Repay, or are they still under the old scheme from Arriva's days?

It's now Delay Repay, with a 30 minute threshold (to be reduced to 15 in the future).

 

[Killingworth]

Interesting that this thread has at least 2 examples of being unable to board a service between Manchester and Sheffield, an experience I share. However definition of whether you could or couldn't board must be tricky. Seeing a train absolutely crammed a new joiner may try to squeeze in, or wait for the next train. I've done both, the decision depending on how urgently I needed to get to my destination.

Delay repay must be claimed by far fewer than 50% of those entitled to do so.

 

[Statto]

Those in the know, would going via Birmingham be valid on a Crewe-Cardiff any permitted route ticket?

Also another alternative could be, get the stopper Crewe-Shrewsbury & catch the Holyhead-Cardiff service.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

No it wasn't. But there is no guarantee that the next train, the 1708, won't be the same.

If you had an Any Permitted ticket like the Off Peak Return (SVR), you could probably have gone via Birmingham and XC instead.

 

[_toommm_]

Those in the know, would going via Birmingham be valid on a Crewe-Cardiff any permitted route ticket?

Also another alternative could be, get the stopper Crewe-Shrewsbury & catch the Holyhead-Cardiff service.

It seems to come up in journey planners -- the xx:19 LNWR to New Street, connecting onto the xx:30 XC to Cardiff Central

 

[DanTrain]

Interesting that this thread has at least 2 examples of being unable to board a service between Manchester and Sheffield, an experience I share. However definition of whether you could or couldn't board must be tricky. Seeing a train absolutely crammed a new joiner may try to squeeze in, or wait for the next train. I've done both, the decision depending on how urgently I needed to get to my destination.

Delay repay must be claimed by far fewer than 50% of those entitled to do so.

+1 on that count, and given how quickly the guard on the following TPE service accepted our tickets, that says something about how how often this occurs... Claimed DR from EMT, although it only came to £3.50 in the end...

What was more worrying was this it wasn't just a few people left behind, it was 20-30, and we held the train up for a good 5 mins (it was already 10+ late) whilst trying to board, all whilst in Piccadilly 13 (thus causing even more congestion behind). And people wonder why the timetable falls apart so easily...

 

[Chrisgr31]

They probably see with advance tickets that there's the ticket costing XX:XX, plus a seat reservation being mandatory with advances, but don't realise the seat reservation costs nothing, and that I could tweet a TOC and get a reservation without actually paying for a ticket. It's a common misconception, and would be a good subject for that thread!

Not particularly sure I agree. Where a seat reservation is mandatory and the ticket is only valid on that particular train then its difficult to see how the reservation has no value. A counter argument would be that the ticket should only be valid if you sit in the seat that you have had to reserve. Where you have the ability to use your ticket on other trains then it would be easier to argue that the reservation has no value.

 

[_toommm_]

Not particularly sure I agree. Where a seat reservation is mandatory and the ticket is only valid on that particular train then its difficult to see how the reservation has no value. A counter argument would be that the ticket should only be valid if you sit in the seat that you have had to reserve. Where you have the ability to use your ticket on other trains then it would be easier to argue that the reservation has no value.

But the companies still have no obligation to give you a seat - I'm not saying I agree with this; I'd be the first to complain when some looney was sat in a seat clearly earmarked as reserved. But logistically, the TOC is doing their duty by getting you from A to B. Not all advances give reservations either like on TfW.

 

[sw1ller]

Only way you can claim delay repay is if you booked and reserved a seat on that service with TfW. I’ve seen itvasked many times on twitter.

 

[_toommm_]

Only way you can claim delay repay is if you booked and reserved a seat on that service with TfW. I’ve seen itvasked many times on twitter.

I'd tend to disagree. If it's part of an itenaray, written or not, the company failed to provide adequate passenger accommodation.

 

[sw1ller]

I'd tend to disagree. If it's part of an itenaray, written or not, the company failed to provide adequate passenger accommodation.

I disagree with it too. But that’s the policy they often reply with on twitter. Hopefully it’s wrong then.

 

[Fearless]

I suppose the key question is whether they still want to travel. If you decided that, because you couldn't board the train due to it being full, and you were there on time, but were now going to miss your appointment, it may be pointless travelling. Presumably you'd then want a refund.

A while ago I was travelling long-distance to a family get-together, on a Sunday (so fewer trains running). Boarded the train (it started from that station), got a seat, stowed the large and heavy package I was taking to the get-together. Then they announced that the train had been cancelled and we all had to get off. It would be 2 hours before another one that would get me where I was going, by which time it would be too late to come back and I was at work the next day. So I gave up and went home. No refund, though - I was on a staff free pass which was thereby wasted. I asked the gate staff about having the free pass reinstated, but they pointed out that I could still use it for another journey (which I didn't). Pity.

 

[Gerald Fiennes]

To answer the original question, the response is 'nothing'. A ticket gives no entitlement to travel on any particular train or to provide a seat, just an obligation to try and get the passenger from A to B. Nevertheless, custom and practice has developed such that some TOCs do offer DR if you are unable to board. However, this is even more extra-contractual to a passenger than DR already is (ie. it could be switched off in a successor franchise) so this is another example where passenger rights really need to be tightened.

 

[zn1]

if the train is full..the passenger is entitled to....a seat in the waiting room, or a seat on the platform until next one is due...a ticket is not entitlement to a seat..