Greater Manchester Combined Authority: Latest transport strategy draft publication

[Greybeard33]

Is there any indication of the route for that one? I'd guess carrying on up Langworthy Road from where the current line joins Eccles New Road, and then along Liverpool Street and Albion Way? Or perhaps more likely Cross Lane, to avoid having to close Albion Way to put the tracks down?

The map is too small scale to show the route of the MediaCity - Salford Crescent line in detail, but it suggests that it would leave the existing Metrolink line between Harbour City and Anchorage, continuing north-east on The Quays and maybe Broadway, then pass to the east of the M602 J3 roundabout, curving north to approach Salford Crescent on the east side of Albion Way, just west of Windsor Bridge South Junction.

 

[Greybeard33]

Not sure how increasing the tram capacity between Victoria and Piccadilly risks services to elsewhere?

Quite. The improved Metrolink service between Victoria and Piccadilly would offer an alternative to rail services on the Ordsall Chord for passengers needing to make connections between the stations. It could help to alleviate the Castlefield Corridor congestion.

 

[Halifaxlad]

Here is the Manchester Evening News article: 'A revolution in Greater Manchester travel; New tram stops, train stations and the birth of the tram-train' published 7th January 2019. https://www.manchestereveningnews.c...eater-manchester-transport-plan-2025-15641201

 

[sprunt]

The map is too small scale to show the route of the MediaCity - Salford Crescent line in detail, but it suggests that it would leave the existing Metrolink line between Harbour City and Anchorage, continuing north-east on The Quays and maybe Broadway, then pass to the east of the M602 J3 roundabout, curving north to approach Salford Crescent on the east side of Albion Way, just west of Windsor Bridge South Junction.

Thanks. That's surprising though, I'd have thought they'd have wanted the trams to avoid the M602 roundabout - I ever drive there, but it seems like the kind of place that might well already have enough traffic struggling to get through it in rush hour.

 

[Halifaxlad]

On page 13 of the report to the Greater Manchester Combined Authority refereed to in the inital post, they're what's been described as 'City centre Metro Tunnel'



Here is the link to the report: https://www.gmcameetings.co.uk/download/meetings/id/4048/9_gm_2040_transport_delivery_plan
JOINT GREATER MANCHESTER COMBINED AUTHORITY & AGMA EXECUTIVE BOARD MEETING / Friday 11 January 2019 / GM Transport Strategy 2040 Draft Delivery Plan (2020-2025)

 

[Mogster]

Someone’s had the crayons out.

 

[ivanhoe]

If the mayors ofGM,Liverpool City Region. Sheffield City Region The various Cheshire and Derbyshire Authorities could have worked together on this, it may have given it a more Northern Powerhouse(God I hate that term)sustainable transport document. Instead, we’re left with the same issues in respect of Hope Valley, CLC lines and the corridor Deansdate to Piccadilly. An opportunity missed, but not necessary all of Burnhams fault. If you truelly want a great Region which encompasses the great Cities and Towns of the North West and Yorkshire, then you’ve got to think outside of your own little area. Understand the desires to increase Metrolink but Buses are deemed the noisy neighbour. If you want less people in cars, you’ve also got to have a bus system that people want to travel on. As one poster said, I’ll probably be pushing up daisies before I see a tram between Bury and Rochdale.

 

[HowardGWR]

Here is the Manchester Evening News article: 'A revolution in Greater Manchester travel; New tram stops, train stations and the birth of the tram-train' published 7th January 2019. https://www.manchestereveningnews.c...eater-manchester-transport-plan-2025-15641201

If the BTL comments on that article are anything to go by, Manchester education provision needs overhaul before anything else in the transport area.

 

[tbtc]

I’ve mentioned several times Burnham’s apparent lack of interest in the Castlefield corridor problems. He only seems interested in cycle lanes and GMPTE’s “Mancrail” aspirations...

In fairness to the guy, he seems to be focussed more on the kind of things that the Manchester Mayor can control.

The Castlefield corridor is a "national" issue (in that it affects trains to Glasgow/ Newcastle/ Norwich/ Llandudno etc) - any attempt to tackle the corridor in the short/medium term will mean removal of some of these long distance links (and spending hundreds of millions of pounds on bringing it up to the standard that people on this Forum want) would mainly benefit long distance passengers, so it's less of a priority for the people who vote for the Manchester Mayor.

That's a fault of the system, not a fault of Burnham. Castlefield is something for TfN to sink their teeth into, or maybe even the DfT.

If I were Mayor of Manchester, I'd be looking at the kind of things that my constituents wanted, which is why bike lanes and Metrolink will always be more interesting than tackling a national bottleneck so that we can run more/reliable services to places like Glasgow/ Newcastle/ Norwich/ Llandudno.

I hear these “Manchester gets everything” complaints regularly from work colleagues from Yorkshire. The Chord benefits people from Yorkshire and the North East by providing direct links to Manchester Airport. It does very little for Manchester just creates rail chaos. Services to Piccadilly from West Manchester and Lancashire have been reduced to make space for the Yorkshire airport trains.

Those links to the Airport were there already - there aren't currently any additional services to the Airport due to the Chord opening.

The plan was that diverting them that way would benefit shorter distance commuting into Manchester (additional paths for Hazel Grove, Macclesfield, Greenbank) due to the Scarborough - Liverpool service not closing the entire Piccadilly throat down when it crossed from the Guide Bridge side to the Oxford Road side. When you look at it like that, Cheshire was due to get a big benefit from the Chord but no change at the moment for Yorkshire (there are plans for a Calder Valley - Airport service over the Chord, but that's not happened yet and would require additional DMUs and additional paths - both of which are in short supply!).

 

[Old Yard Dog]

I thought the main point of the chord was to link the towns and cities on the Calder Valley line with Piccadilly and the Airport. But instead priority is given to TPE and Leeds (as usual) which already had an airport link.

 

[CdBrux]

I thought the main point of the chord was to link the towns and cities on the Calder Valley line with Piccadilly and the Airport. But instead priority is given to TPE and Leeds (as usual) which already had an airport link.

how do you make out they have a priority when nothing changes for them?

 

[mwmbwls]

The map is too small scale to show the route of the MediaCity - Salford Crescent line in detail, but it suggests that it would leave the existing Metrolink line between Harbour City and Anchorage, continuing north-east on The Quays and maybe Broadway, then pass to the east of the M602 J3 roundabout, curving north to approach Salford Crescent on the east side of Albion Way, just west of Windsor Bridge South Junction.

It looks like it follows the old Ship Canal Link alignment to Windsor Bridge. This was filled in when Morrisons built a store over it - the store subsequently closed. Is all of that alignment now available again?

Manchester Ship Canal Salford The Docks 1906 by Mwmbwls, on Flickr

 

[LM93]

It looks like it follows the old Ship Canal Link alignment to Windsor Bridge. This was filled in when Morrisons built a store over it - the store subsequently closed. Is all of that alignment now available again?
Manchester Ship Canal Salford The Docks 1906 by Mwmbwls, on Flickr

I know the portal has been dug up during redevelopment, but it all depends on the condition and size of the tunnel. Also, the need to think about the space on the windsor junction side

 

[NorthernSpirit]

What is interesting is that Glossop is in Derbyshire so any conversion to Tram Train technology would also have to be passed through Derbyshire County Council as it would affect them too and not only GMPTE/TFGM/GMCA. Any extention of the Glossop Line north of Hadfield would also be interesting as some of the old trackbed at Crowden has a reservoir built on it, the rest is the Longdendale Trail but I won't say no to the line been extended as far as Crowden so longs a station is built at Torside too.

 

[johnnychips]

What is interesting is that Glossop is in Derbyshire so any conversion to Tram Train technology would also have to be passed through Derbyshire County Council as it would affect them too and not only GMPTE/TFGM/GMCA. Any extention of the Glossop Line north of Hadfield would also be interesting as some of the old trackbed at Crowden has a reservoir built on it, the rest is the Longdendale Trail but I won't say no to the line been extended as far as Crowden so longs a station is built at Torside too.

There are about ten houses at Crowden and Torside put together. I don’t think that would pass @altnabreac’s line reopening test!

 

[vlad]

Any extention of the Glossop Line north of Hadfield would also be interesting as some of the old trackbed at Crowden has a reservoir built on it, the rest is the Longdendale Trail but I won't say no to the line been extended as far as Crowden so longs a station is built at Torside too.

Which bit? The whole of the track bed from pretty close to Hadfield station as far as Woodhead Tunnel is still there and now used as a cycle path. The Longdendale reservoirs are all 19th-century.

 

[NorthernSpirit]

Which bit? The whole of the track bed from pretty close to Hadfield station as far as Woodhead Tunnel is still there and now used as a cycle path. The Longdendale reservoirs are all 19th-century.

The Hadfield to Crowden section, as part of the trackbed at Crowden has been shored up to form a banking for the nearby reservoir. To get through to the Yorkshire side of Woodhead you'd need a new tunnel as the most recent one now has some of the National Grid running through it.

 

[tbtc]

What is interesting is that Glossop is in Derbyshire so any conversion to Tram Train technology would also have to be passed through Derbyshire County Council as it would affect them too and not only GMPTE/TFGM/GMCA.

This would be the third tram network in the East Midlands, in that case (the Nottingham one is obviously in the East Midlands, but not a lot of people know that the Sheffield Supertram runs through Derbyshire, between White Lane and Birley Lane). Fourth if you include Crich!

Glossop has been part of Manchester in public transport terms - e.g. the local bus operator was GM Buses (rather than part of Trent) - it's a bit out on a limb.

 

[Greybeard33]

What is interesting is that Glossop is in Derbyshire so any conversion to Tram Train technology would also have to be passed through Derbyshire County Council as it would affect them too and not only GMPTE/TFGM/GMCA.

Glossop has been part of Manchester in public transport terms - e.g. the local bus operator was GM Buses (rather than part of Trent) - it's a bit out on a limb.

Yes, although Glossop, Hadfield and Dinting are in Derbyshire, they are nonetheless within the TfGM rail boundary. I do not think Derbyshire CC would have any say in conversion of the line to tram-train - it would not affect the rest of the county.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes, although Glossop, Hadfield and Dinting are in Derbyshire, they are nonetheless within the TfGM rail boundary. I do not think Derbyshire CC would have any say in conversion of the line to tram-train - it would not affect the rest of the county.

I very much doubt they will care very much about it provided TfGM doesn't go to them with the begging bowl.

 

[Old Yard Dog]

Leeds - Airport trains prematurely rerouted via Victoria instead of giving the Calder Valley first dibs on Ordsall chord paths.

 

[mwmbwls]

I thought the main point of the chord was to link the towns and cities on the Calder Valley line with Piccadilly and the Airport. But instead priority is given to TPE and Leeds (as usual) which already had an airport link.

Only in the Calder Valley perhaps, the business case for the chord was built on reducing the throat crossing blockages at Manchester Piccadilly by trains from Huddersfield and points east heading to the airport and also through trains from Liverpool cutting across the throat from platforms 13 & 14 to access the route to Stalybridge etc. It was not a question of favouring one franchisee - but stopping one franchise from negatively impacting the rest.
But the Chord was always seen as not an end in itself - there was a general recognition that the platforms at Piccadilly and Oxford Road would have to be rebuilt - the planning got to the part of the GRIP where a TWAO was applied for and then somebody changed their mind. Who could that be? "Dumpty,rumpty,tumpty tum" as the tune goes at the end of the Archers.

 

[WatcherZero]

Derbyshire leave all the rail matters on the line to TfGM who provide the funding and policy direction, Derbyshire Wayfarer tickets aren't valid on the line.

https://www.derbyshire.gov.uk/site-...tables/train-services/derbyshire-rail-map.pdf

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Looking through this thread for the first time, I am most surprised at the number of times that GMPTE rather than the correct title of TfGM has been mentioned in postings.

 

[Bevan Price]

I know the portal has been dug up during redevelopment, but it all depends on the condition and size of the tunnel. Also, the need to think about the space on the windsor junction side

From what I remember from a brake van tour in the 1960s, it was a single line tunnel from Windsor Bridge to the Ship Canal railway, so probably not wide enough for a double track tramway.

 

[mwmbwls]

Bob Pixton's book "Liverpool & Manchester" Volume 3 "Lancashire and Yorkshire Lines" 2008 pages 114/5 ( ISBN 978 1 905505 07 4) has pictures of the branch in 1963 showing that it was a two track route. The captions indicate that the route was just over a mile long with three tunnels at depths of 17 and 23 feet. The route was rationalised, whilst I was at the University of Salford, in the late sixties and the track may well have been slewed at that time.

 

[Andrew Nelson]

Here is the Manchester Evening News article: 'A revolution in Greater Manchester travel; New tram stops, train stations and the birth of the tram-train' published 7th January 2019. https://www.manchestereveningnews.c...eater-manchester-transport-plan-2025-15641201

...."the birth of the tram-train".

Typically ignorant journalism from the MEN then.

 

[Andrew Nelson]

Yes, although Glossop, Hadfield and Dinting are in Derbyshire, they are nonetheless within the TfGM rail boundary. I do not think Derbyshire CC would have any say in conversion of the line to tram-train - it would not affect the rest of the county.

Derbyshire Wayfarers aren't valid at those stations.

 

[Andrew Nelson]

Concerning that they are talking about putting even more traffic from Victoria to Piccadilly.

It's one thing to place make, but it's another entirely to do so at the expense of an entire region or regions.

Greater Manchester has placed itself at the centre of the north, and milked that position for all its worth. If it wants the rewards then it also has to accept the responsibility (of ensuring throughput for other cities is protected first and foremost). The Ordsall Chord has proved to be an expensive catastrophe, and enough is enough.

Surely you mean services have moved from Piccadilly to Victoria (Liverpool TPX for example).

 

[Andrew Nelson]

I’ve mentioned several times Burnham’s apparent lack of interest in the Castlefield corridor problems. He only seems interested in cycle lanes and GMPTE’s “Mancrail” aspirations...

I hear these “Manchester gets everything” complaints regularly from work colleagues from Yorkshire. The Chord benefits people from Yorkshire and the North East by providing direct links to Manchester Airport. It does very little for Manchester just creates rail chaos. Services to Piccadilly from West Manchester and Lancashire have been reduced to make space for the Yorkshire airport trains.

Are you saying those links from the north east to MIA didn't exist previously?
I would suggest the links are fewer, as the Liverpool trains now serve Victoria.
A station with far fewer Airport connections than were available from Piccadilly.
AND the number of Airport service reliability problems are far higher, with services often curtailed at either Vic', or Pic'