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People Opposed to Contacless Payments - Why?

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whhistle

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I hope this won't turn into an argument sort of thread, so please be respectful.
However, I am at a loss why some people don't like contactless payments.

I hear it a fair bit ("I don't do contactless"), but I'm not sure why people take this approach.
It's not just because it's change.

Contactless is enabled on their card by default (yes, I am aware of having to use a pin payment before hand), so using it isn't going to be any less secure than putting a pin in. This is the only reason I can think of. It's that because someone hasn't entered a pin, then they feel they aren't authorising a payment (even though by standing there buying a magazine, they are!).

Does anyone know why some people are opposed to contactless payments?
 
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Failed Unit

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Some people are against it because of fraud. I am meaning in the respect you lose your card and a thief hits you for £90? However I am not sure if you always use the pin if the contactless still remains available.

I often need to use my pin because I have done too many contactless translations - but I am sure someone will know if it can disabled.

Personally I love it. Better than cash even with the value you can lose if you lose your card before the safety limit blocks it.
 

eastwestdivide

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Privacy?
Some people might prefer the privacy of cash. i.e. the bank doesn't have a record of everything you buy.

Trust?
Some people might not trust the system to take the right amount, or might think there's nefarious additional machines that can detect the contactless card from a distance.
 

Failed Unit

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I must admit. One of the biggest advantages of contactless is gone. You need to take the card out your wallet if you have multiple smart cards.
 

bnm

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Whether someone is opposed to using Contactless is no-one's business but their own. If they want to use Chip & Pin, or Chip & Signature, then that's fine.

Also. Not all cards are Contactless and not all transactions are below the Contactless limit.

I'm at a loss as to why this is such an issue for the OP.
 

Ianno87

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Some people are against it because of fraud. I am meaning in the respect you lose your card and a thief hits you for £90? However I am not sure if you always use the pin if the contactless still remains available.

But if you are in posession of your own card, how does avoiding use of contactless yourself prevent fraud? It's far too popular now for banks to take notice of a few 'protestors'.

You stop fraude by getting your card stopped s soon as it was stolen (and location of rogue transactions can be traced from it presumably)

Contctless cards still require a PIN for Chip and Pin transactions.
 

jon0844

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Using your phone is surely better as you can swap cards easily and only authorise a payment if the phone is unlocked. If stolen, besides being unusable, you can kill the virtual card and set up again on a replacement phone.

Many places also have no limit on Google, Samsung or Apple Pay.

While I carry a card, I rarely have to remove it from my pocket and it's mostly used at a cash point (rarely as I don't need much cash).

The phone also holds my loyalty cards.
 

Failed Unit

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But if you are in posession of your own card, how does avoiding use of contactless yourself prevent fraud? It's far too popular now for banks to take notice of a few 'protestors'.

You stop fraude by getting your card stopped s soon as it was stolen (and location of rogue transactions can be traced from it presumably)

Contctless cards still require a PIN for Chip and Pin transactions.

I was meaning if you then drop your wallet. The cash is of course gone, but your liability is a lot higher if you don’t notice quickly.

I am in favour, so trying to put an alternative viewpoint over. My parents in their 70s fear the technology and seen to think it is worse than cash if you get mugged. (Which is odd as you have highlighted at least you can attempt to stop the card. Cash is gone)
 

krus_aragon

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My objection is on the issue of security/authentication, and also some stubbornness and ludditeness.

I could see the benefit of replacing signatures with PIN authorisation. It's a simple match/fail decision, as opposed to asking a cashier to judge how similar two scribbles are. The new system reduced card fraud, and made unattended/not-in-person card payment (internet payments, ticket vending machine) practical. (Signing a digital "pad", and expecting a computer to compare it with an on-file signature is a more complex and less rugged solution.) Memorising a four-digit number is reasonably easy for a typical person, and not likely to be guessed in a limited number of attempts. For those who have difficulties with PIN payment, they can arrange with their bank to roll back to signature-only cards instead.

Contactless payments, by comparison, don't seem to offer a benefit that I want. Payment is quicker (slowness was one complaint about Chip & PIN when it was introduced), but that's it as far as I can see. In contrast, the security of the authorisation system is significantly reduced: there's nothing in the process that proves that I authorise the payment (as opposed to anyone else who has my card in their hands).

There are back-end limitations that have been put in place to mitigate the dangers. transaction value* limits, and a requirement to enter a PIN every few transactions. And a commitment by banks to refund any fraudulent transactions. (Once you inform your bank, and flag up all such transaction for them.) But these all strike me as being sticking plasters trying to patch up the contactless system, which don't get back to the standards of the Chip & PIN system.

Banks and (many) retailers are clearly in favour of contactless payment, so there must be some advantage to them. Especially the banks, as they have a financial cost in refunding fraudulent transactions. Is it a case of avoiding losing customers to competitors that are offering the service? Or do the quicker transactions result in significant time/staff saving? I'm not sure what it is.

But whatever their viewpoint, the benefits aren't very great for me. I put more value on the lost security/authorisation than the added speed and convenience. So I'll stick to PIN payments, thanks.

When opening a new bank account recently, I was pleased to be asked if I wanted a contactless card, as I was given the opportunity to decline it. My existing banks just sent out a contactless-enabled card, in one case long before the previous card had expired. I had to go back to them and say "no thanks". I have kept one contactless card, however, for any unforeseen situations: It might be useful as a mock-oyster card one day, for example. But in the meantime I can tell the bank that any and all contactless payments were done by someone else, should the need arise.

*these have increased since introduction IIRC. Low limits to help reassure new users, and later raised when people have become comfortable with the new payment system.
 

jon0844

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Contactless is closer to using cash, except you'll get money back if your card is stolen. Not so if you lose cash.

That's an advantage over cash. Even if you may have to make a phone call or sign a form.
 

sprunt

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I don't want to carry a contactless card around with me as it will clash with my Oyster card. I'm also unconvinced by the lack of security, despite the repeated reassurances of the banking industry - it's not unforeseeable that I could lose my wallet and not notice until a number of transactions have been made before I get the chance to report it missing. I happily make contactless payments on my phone though, as it needs me to unlock it first, which not just anyone can do.
 

cactustwirly

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But if you are in posession of your own card, how does avoiding use of contactless yourself prevent fraud? It's far too popular now for banks to take notice of a few 'protestors'.

You stop fraude by getting your card stopped s soon as it was stolen (and location of rogue transactions can be traced from it presumably)

Contctless cards still require a PIN for Chip and Pin transactions.

If you have a revolut card, and it gets lost/stolen then you can block the card in the app,
 

jon0844

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If you have a revolut card, and it gets lost/stolen then you can block the card in the app,

You can even purchase additional 'virtual' cards to use different card numbers for different transactions, with all money taken from the same account.
 

Puffing Devil

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If you get skimmed on a debit card you need to get your money back from the bank.

Get skimmed on a credit card and the bank has to chase you for the cash.

I don't have contactless on my debit cards.
 

nlogax

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Suppose I get the objections but I've been happily using contactless for over a decade without issue. No unauthorized usage, no security issues and never a problem with Oyster if you don't place it right next to your contactless cards.

One small downside with contactless - even more pronounced with contactless phone payments - it's too easy to buy stuff without a second thought. At least with chip & pin you get a moment's pause to ponder if you really want to buy what you're about to buy.
 

Tetchytyke

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Whether someone is opposed to using Contactless is no-one's business but their own.

Then don't answer the thread if you don't want to answer. Goodness me.

If you get skimmed on a debit card you need to get your money back from the bank

I think the threat if fraud on Contactless is overstated. If the card's nicked people can do a few low value transactions and can still do so even if the card is stopped. But it's low value stuff and the bank will refund disputed transactions.

The biggest fraud remains cardholder not present transactions. Which is why I definitely don't use a debit card online.
 

PeterY

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I must admit I still use cash. If I haven't got it, I can't spend it. I'm of the older generation though.
 

krus_aragon

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If you get skimmed on a debit card you need to get your money back from the bank.

Get skimmed on a credit card and the bank has to chase you for the cash.

I don't have contactless on my debit cards.
That's a good, well-thought-out approach.
One small downside with contactless - even more pronounced with contactless phone payments - it's too easy to buy stuff without a second thought.
Sounds like a good reason for shops to offer the facility!
 

DanDaDriver

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It’s handy if your phone supports contactless payments. Particularly if it requires your fingerprint to authorise it. That’s arguably more secure than PIN or regular contactless.
 

krus_aragon

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It’s handy if your phone supports contactless payments. Particularly if it requires your fingerprint to authorise it. That’s arguably more secure than PIN or regular contactless.
Arguably so, but it may introduce other problems as a phone can be running all sorts of software/malware in the background. (I won't go into better or worse, just different.)

Apple seem to have put a lot of effort into locking down the hardware used for phone payments; I don't know how proactive the Android manufacturers have been.
 

joncombe

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I do use contactless, but one thing that has bothered me is if someone can get hold of one of the readers. Imaging setting it to the maximum amount permitted by contactless in a crowded tube cariage and just moving it near peoples pockets to debit money from their account. They haven't lost the card so they likely won't realise until the bill comes (unless they check the balance regularly).

Essentially the card is a means to debit money from your account without even needing to touch the card or authenticate in any way. Yes the amounts might be limited, but it can still multiple up quickly.

I know banks will cover the costs in this case, but if such fraud is possible and becomes widespread that might change.
 

Lucan

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I have many cards and use them for different purposes. Eg the Tesco card at Tescos for the brownie points, a different one for fuel, and so on. Moreover I don't use a card very often, I live fairly remotely and only go into town once a week (or even longer). If I had a card stolen or lost I'd probably not notice until the next statement, when I'd see someone was bingeing with it. There is a transaction limit, but many transactions would soon rack up, and I don't want an argument with the bank about not telling them quickly enough.

Therefore I don't want contactless. A contact only card is still an option with some banks if you ask. Even with a dual purpose card I still use a PIN because I hate banks crowing that "Everyone loves contactless!", and so justifying discontinuing contact cards sometime soon. It will happen anyway of course if/when everyone falls into line, but that won't stop me from resisting it.
 

Lucan

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... one thing that has bothered me is if someone can get hold of one of the readers .... in a crowded tube cariage and just moving it near peoples pockets to debit money from their account ...
I'm surprised this has not happened already (has it? IDK). Crooks have been stealing cars with contactless ignition fobs by hanging around the driver after he has parked, or approaching front doors where the fob might be on the hall table, and reading the emitted digital code with a radio device. Can't be too difficult to apply the same technique to contactless cards.
 

High Dyke

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Pubs having Contactless is so dangerous :lol:
LOL. Seriously though the committee of my local club (former BR Staff Association) discussed the possibility of having a card machine, for people to make payments when ordering drinks. The decision was taken not to proceed with a card machine at the present time - the "luddites" among them prefer, and sometimes, require cash to be readily available. There were other influencing factors such as card transaction fees, machine rental and connection fees (yes we were asking our banking provider to facilitate a card machine.)

Personally I use contactless for some transactions, but still use chip & pin when required. And cash in your hand can also be helpful.
 

cjp

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I do use contactless, but one thing that has bothered me is if someone can get hold of one of the readers. Imaging setting it to the maximum amount permitted by contactless in a crowded tube cariage and just moving it near peoples pockets to debit money from their account. They haven't lost the card so they likely won't realise until the bill comes (unless they check the balance regularly).

Essentially the card is a means to debit money from your account without even needing to touch the card or authenticate in any way. Yes the amounts might be limited, but it can still multiple up quickly.

I know banks will cover the costs in this case, but if such fraud is possible and becomes widespread that might change.
Starling text me after each entry in or out goes through their system
 

dgl

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I suppose one slight advantage (if you can call it that) of contactless cards is that if your card gets stolen and subsequently used then the banks should know both when and where the card was used, combine that with 99% (I would guess) of shops having CCTV the it would probably (with co-operation of the banks and police) catch the perpetrator.
 

Andy25

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I don't want to carry a contactless card around with me as it will clash with my Oyster card. I'm also unconvinced by the lack of security, despite the repeated reassurances of the banking industry - it's not unforeseeable that I could lose my wallet and not notice until a number of transactions have been made before I get the chance to report it missing. I happily make contactless payments on my phone though, as it needs me to unlock it first, which not just anyone can do.
Why not register your bank card and get rid of the oyster card? Few people seem to use the dedicated oyster cards anymore and you don't need to have credit sat in TFL's account. As long you register it first you can log in and check all recent journeys
 

ooo

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I do use contactless, but one thing that has bothered me is if someone can get hold of one of the readers. Imaging setting it to the maximum amount permitted by contactless in a crowded tube cariage and just moving it near peoples pockets to debit money from their account. They haven't lost the card so they likely won't realise until the bill comes (unless they check the balance regularly).

Essentially the card is a means to debit money from your account without even needing to touch the card or authenticate in any way. Yes the amounts might be limited, but it can still multiple up quickly.

I know banks will cover the costs in this case, but if such fraud is possible and becomes widespread that might change.
The card machine would be linked to them so it would be easy to catch them
Why not register your bank card and get rid of the oyster card? Few people seem to use the dedicated oyster cards anymore and you don't need to have credit sat in TFL's account. As long you register it first you can log in and check all recent journeys
I think the only real reason to use a oyster card for pay as you go if you have a contactless card is if you get a Railcard discount as you can only get these on ooyster
 

Tetchytyke

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I know banks will cover the costs in this case, but if such fraud is possible and becomes widespread that might change.

I don't think it would or could become widespread. To debit money from accounts you need access to the banking system, and that doesn't come without a paper trail. The card reader is linked to someone. Hard to scam when the bank know who you are.

Hardly worth the hassle when easier and more proven techniques, such as phishing or cloning, can give bigger rewards.
 
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