East-West Rail (EWR): Consultation updates [not speculation]

[Clayton]

I don't think you get the point. There is a market, suppressed demand some call it, which currently does not exist as the only public transport option is coach, and many would not bother. They would drive, or not make that journey at all. Rail unlocks that new/hidden demand.

Of course my own preference is subjective, that is the definition of it, if unclear? Many are the same though, and do not travel by coach. Not snobbery, but facts. Buses and coaches are an inferior experience to rail or one's own car. But EWR will open up a whole new market place, and world for these people.

It’s not just that coaches aren’t as nice. It’s harder to find info about them, where they go and where they stop, and the fact that they get stuck in traffic means they offer little advantage over a car

 

[doa46231]

"In May 2014, Network Rail announced that the line will be opened to 125 mph (200 km/h) running, the current top speed for InterCity services.
also It is proposed that CrossCountry services, along with Chiltern Railways and London Northwestern Railway services will use the route.[36]"

"By August 2016, it became clear that Network Rail considers the project to be 'no longer the third most important project in the country' (after HS2 and Crossrail) and that delivery of the core of the Western Section (Oxford to Bedford via Bletchley) might slip beyond 2024,[17] with the connection to Aylesbury due even later.[18] Councillor Rodney Rose, chair of the East West Rail Consortium suggested that the main causes of the delay include delays arising from rail electrification difficulties and fiscal uncertainty arising from the UK's decision to leave the European Union.[17] However, in November 2016, Councillor Rose was able to draw attention to remarks by the new Transport Secretary, Chris Grayling, that suggest that project remains in the Government's expenditure plans.[44]ong with Chiltern Railways and London Northwestern Railway services will use the route.[36]"

"Following a joint travelling exhibition by the Consortium, Milton Keynes Partnership and Chiltern Railways in April 2009[26] the May EWRC 2009 publicity leaflet and current (June 2004) website cite the following proposed service patterns:

• Oxford to Bedford: 1tph (train per hour) stopping Oxford-Bletchley, semi-fast Bletchley-Bedford (fastest through journey 43 minutes)
• Bletchley to Bedford: 1tph stopping all stations (fastest through journey 42 minutes)
• Oxford to Milton Keynes Central: 1tph stopping all stations (fastest through journey 47 minutes)
• Aylesbury to Milton Keynes Central: 1tph stopping all stations (fastest through journey 33 minutes)."

Does this not show that the scheme has been descoped?
To me it looks like the service pattern proposed is a DMU local service,
Where are the inter-city trains to connect other regions of the Country?
As I said at the beginning, as originally concieved it would have been a very useful addition to cross country journeys.
From Aylesbury and Oxford to MK, yes, a valuable addition, but Cambridge to Bedford: no plan for connection.
Cambridge to MK, a non starter. Very few will want to change at Bletchley, especially as the change involves a trek fronm the high level platforms to the slow line platforms.
The route from Bedford to Cambridge yet to be decided. how long before a spade is actually put in the ground?
Infinite scope for delays and prevarication which is the norm for the UK.
i joined a group pressing for reopening from Bicester to MK in 1986!
It could have opened just before privatisation, which ruined the plan.
Chris Green even walked the route, I believe, and rekoned one extra DMU would be sufficient to operate a service.
So I've been involved a lot longer than most on here, and have even checked tickets on the Shoppers Specials we operated from Aylesbury to MK
before Xmas.
I've actually done something to try to get trains running, so I dont need armchair experts telling me I dont know what I'm talking about!

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

"In May 2014, Network Rail announced that the line will be opened to 125 mph (200 km/h) running, the current top speed for InterCity services.
also It is proposed that CrossCountry services, along with Chiltern Railways and London Northwestern Railway services will use the route.[36]"

"By August 2016, it became clear that Network Rail considers the project to be 'no longer the third most important project in the country' (after HS2 and Crossrail) and that delivery of the core of the Western Section (Oxford to Bedford via Bletchley) might slip beyond 2024,[17] with the connection to Aylesbury due even later.[18] Councillor Rodney Rose, chair of the East West Rail Consortium suggested that the main causes of the delay include delays arising from rail electrification difficulties and fiscal uncertainty arising from the UK's decision to leave the European Union.[17] However, in November 2016, Councillor Rose was able to draw attention to remarks by the new Transport Secretary, Chris Grayling, that suggest that project remains in the Government's expenditure plans.[44]ong with Chiltern Railways and London Northwestern Railway services will use the route.[36]"

"Following a joint travelling exhibition by the Consortium, Milton Keynes Partnership and Chiltern Railways in April 2009[26] the May EWRC 2009 publicity leaflet and current (June 2004) website cite the following proposed service patterns:

• Oxford to Bedford: 1tph (train per hour) stopping Oxford-Bletchley, semi-fast Bletchley-Bedford (fastest through journey 43 minutes)
• Bletchley to Bedford: 1tph stopping all stations (fastest through journey 42 minutes)
• Oxford to Milton Keynes Central: 1tph stopping all stations (fastest through journey 47 minutes)
• Aylesbury to Milton Keynes Central: 1tph stopping all stations (fastest through journey 33 minutes)."

Does this not show that the scheme has been descoped?
To me it looks like the service pattern proposed is a DMU local service,
Where are the inter-city trains to connect other regions of the Country?
As I said at the beginning, as originally concieved it would have been a very useful addition to cross country journeys.
From Aylesbury and Oxford to MK, yes, a valuable addition, but Cambridge to Bedford: no plan for connection.
Cambridge to MK, a non starter. Very few will want to change at Bletchley, especially as the change involves a trek fronm the high level platforms to the slow line platforms.
The route from Bedford to Cambridge yet to be decided. how long before a spade is actually put in the ground?
Infinite scope for delays and prevarication which is the norm for the UK.
i joined a group pressing for reopening from Bicester to MK in 1986!
It could have opened just before privatisation, which ruined the plan.
Chris Green even walked the route, I believe, and rekoned one extra DMU would be sufficient to operate a service.
So I've been involved a lot longer than most on here, and have even checked tickets on the Shoppers Specials we operated from Aylesbury to MK
before Xmas.
I've actually done something to try to get trains running, so I dont need armchair experts telling me I dont know what I'm talking about!

It definitely has been descoped:

From 125mph as stated above to 100mph, from Electrified to diesel, from redoubling of the Aylesbury to Princes Risborough Line and allowing a Service to London Marylebone (from MKC) to a service Aylesbury from MKC. Primary reason being cost.

It should be a major CrossCountry Route from the South Wales and Bristol to East Anglia not just Oxford to MKC/Bedford and Cambridge.

The service pattern is better as it is now 2tph between Oxford and Milton Keynes, 1 between Oxford and Bedford and 1 between Aylesbury and Milton Keynes

 

[Bald Rick]

I would argue that the project outputs have been de-specified rather than the project inputs being descoped. There is a key difference.

(The scope has only very recently been set, and indeed is yet to be confirmed.)

 

[DarloRich]

@doa46231 it customary to note where you have cut and paste information - in this case it looks like wiki.

BTW - you are not the only one involved in trying to get this line open. Some of us have done more than check tickets. Lets not bother with one upmanship bingo eh?

I would argue that the project outputs have been de-specified rather than the project inputs being descoped. There is a key difference.

that is too technical for the experts here.

 

[Andyjs247]

In answer to what physical works are already in progress on the ground, some track has been removed between Gavray Junction and the Charbridge Lane Crossing (ie A4421/Bicester).

Beyond the crossing towards Calvert track is still currently in place but I cannot say categorically if there has been any recent progress on track removal further along the line. I suspect not.

However the compound at Bicester Road, Launton (which was thought not to be railway related) recently gained “East West Rail Alliance” signage. It is inhabited by Instalcom
who seem to be undertaking telecoms works, specifically fibre optic installation around Bicester and presumably along the EWR line of route.

Not much so far, but in summary:

• Removal of existing track between Gavray Junction (Bicester) and Claydon Junction (Calvert) [part complete]
• Installation of new OLE support structures on WCML to allow temporary lowering of OLE on WCML [complete]
• Installation of environmental mitigation sites [in progress]
• Lowering of OLE on WCML under Bletchley Flyover [later this year]
• Removal of existing track between west Bletchley and east side of Bletchley Flyover, to fcilitate Flyover works [later this year]
• Contruction compounds established and off-line highway improvements installed [later this year]

 

[Apb007]

In answer to what physical works are already in progress on the ground, some track has been removed between Gavray Junction and the Charbridge Lane Crossing (ie A4421/Bicester).

Beyond the crossing towards Calvert track is still currently in place but I cannot say categorically if there has been any recent progress on track removal further along the line. I suspect not.

However the compound at Bicester Road, Launton (which was thought not to be railway related) recently gained “East West Rail Alliance” signage. It is inhabited by Instalcom
who seem to be undertaking telecoms works, specifically fibre optic installation around Bicester and presumably along the EWR line of route.

there has been a lot more work completed last year, the line is severed from Claydon Junction and the track lifted (im not local but would assume if its been lifted at both ends, its been done throughout)

Theres some photos on the below posts that show the progress

https://twitter.com/Marshrail/status/1099412134365155328
https://twitter.com/RailfutureTV/status/1046500019799494659

 

[richieb1971]

I think my concerns right now are around the situation with corridor C still being the preferred route. Although I don't hear or see it, I can only envisage a lot of "oohing" and "Arrring" is going on behind closed doors.

Since Bedford is the first sticking point, I think they should choose where the line will pass Bedford first, then work down the route from there (The central section choice). I think a lot of that is down to the Wixams station situation and also the A421 dual carriageway build. These are going to be persuasive in the final output.

I am extremely happy with the Western section progression and am fully confident that the government and EWR group will build the railway at least to Bedford.

 

[doa46231]

that is too technical for the experts here.

Absolutely right.
Only those qualified enough to to understand the technicalities should be allowed to post.
The rest of us should just shut up and admire our betters!

You really are a piece of work Mr Rich of Darlington!

 

[DarloRich]

Absolutely right.
Only those qualified enough to to understand the technicalities should be allowed to post.
The rest of us should just shut up and admire our betters!

You really are a piece of work Mr Rich of Darlington!

Sigh. Clearly anyone may post as shown by the continued expression of your view. You are welcome to share it but should not expect people to agree when it is based on imperfect understanding of the situation and poor grasp of facts.

Personally I share some of your skepticism regarding the section beyond Bedford but think the majority of your points are wildly inaccurate

 

[DaveN]

Since Bedford is the first sticking point, I think they should choose where the line will pass Bedford first, then work down the route from there (The central section choice). I think a lot of that is down to the Wixams station situation and also the A421 dual carriageway build. These are going to be persuasive in the final output.

This is essentially what they have done in the https://eastwestrail.co.uk/haveyoursay documents with a slight twist. Routes A, B and C assume Bedford South/Wixams amd Routes D and E going to Bedford Midland.

But really, the route choice is going to be Route A because it is the cheapest, unless Mr Grayling can be convinced that the longer term (ie 20-50 years ahead) benefits of the other routes are worth it. Or have I missed something?

 

[HowardGWR]

But really, the route choice is going to be Route A because it is the cheapest, unless Mr Grayling can be convinced that the longer term (ie 20-50 years ahead) benefits of the other routes are worth it. Or have I missed something?

Perhaps this: do you really think that Mr Grayling is thinking long term at the moment?

 

[camflyer]

Perhaps this: do you really think that Mr Grayling is thinking long term at the moment?

The problem we have with transport in this country is that no Transport Secretary ever thinks long term.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

The problem we have with transport in this country is that no Transport Secretary ever thinks long term.

Who would want to when there is only 5 years between a General Election

 

[bspahh]

Who would want to when there is only 5 years between a General Election

And the average time in office is 2 years. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secre...ort#Secretary_of_State_for_Transport_(2002–_) lists nine Secretary of State for Transport Ministers since 2002

 

[richieb1971]

For people like Darlorich I say this. A lot of people that frequent these forums have this belief that nothing will be made on time. That essentially makes it a lie. Politicians, the GRIP process and everything surrounding it always finds a reason to delay. We have years of cheap talk, the goal posts move numerous times. The problem something we want built will resolve fundamentally gets a lot worse before its built. Cross rail is the fastest moving project and the media state it will be over loaded with passengers within 2 or 3 years of opening.

The UK for all its investment, is still getting worse year by year due to this. And basically if your a true patriot of Britain and you love the history of this wonderful country, you want to celebrate monumental openings and things you can be proud of. That is something sorely missed in the past 30 years, it does happen from time to time. But it certainly hasn't happened anywhere near me. EWR is something local to me and I want it yesterday. Sorry for the impatience.

 

[DarloRich]

For people like Darlorich I say this. A lot of people that frequent these forums have this belief that nothing will be made on time. That essentially makes it a lie. Politicians, the GRIP process and everything surrounding it always finds a reason to delay. We have years of cheap talk, the goal posts move numerous times. The problem something we want built will resolve fundamentally gets a lot worse before its built. Cross rail is the fastest moving project and the media state it will be over loaded with passengers within 2 or 3 years of opening.

The UK for all its investment, is still getting worse year by year due to this. And basically if your a true patriot of Britain and you love the history of this wonderful country, you want to celebrate monumental openings and things you can be proud of. That is something sorely missed in the past 30 years, it does happen from time to time. But it certainly hasn't happened anywhere near me. EWR is something local to me and I want it yesterday. Sorry for the impatience.

Dear me. All the posts in this thread and you have learnt nothing. It is the same broken record time and again.

 

[richieb1971]

Dear me. All the posts in this thread and you have learnt nothing. It is the same broken record time and again.

We obviously want different things. If something happens and it's fantastic in this country it's almost as if it's something that in your mind slipped through. I don't want that mentality, at the very least I want enthusiasm.

 

[DarloRich]

We obviously want different things. If something happens and it's fantastic in this country it's almost as if it's something that in your mind slipped through. I don't want that mentality, at the very least I want enthusiasm.

I have no idea what you are talking about! You arent enthusiastic. You are deluded. You seem to think it is simply like captain Picard ponting and saying "make it so". The real world isnt like that. I wish you and others could grasp that and try to understand what the challenges involved in a big publicly funded infrastructure project.

All I ask of you and others is some connection with reality. That's all. Reality.

 

[richieb1971]

But the reality your talking about is a UK reality. Its not the same reality as everywhere else. Even Scotland does better than England and I applaud that, but its not where I live.

Lets not forget that Theresa May spent a billion on saving her position. Before that there wasn't any "public" money. The actual reality and projected reality are 2 different things.

If the UK is the 5th largest economy, why doesn't it act like it?

I am enthusiastic, EWR makes me feel like Christmas is coming. You think about it what you want, your not taking my joy.

 

[DarloRich]

But the reality your talking about is a UK reality. Its not the same reality as everywhere else. Even Scotland does better than England and I applaud that, but its not where I live.

Lets not forget that Theresa May spent a billion on saving her position. Before that there wasn't any "public" money. The actual reality and projected reality are 2 different things.

If the UK is the 5th largest economy, why doesn't it act like it?

I am enthusiastic, EWR makes me feel like Christmas is coming. You think about it what you want, your not taking my joy.

I give up.

 

[Bald Rick]

But the reality your talking about is a UK reality. Its not the same reality as everywhere else. Even Scotland does better than England and I applaud that, but its not where I live.

Lets not forget that Theresa May spent a billion on saving her position. Before that there wasn't any "public" money. The actual reality and projected reality are 2 different things.

If the UK is the 5th largest economy, why doesn't it act like it?

I am enthusiastic, EWR makes me feel like Christmas is coming. You think about it what you want, your not taking my joy.

It is the same in Scotland (exactly the same processes are followed) and Europe for that matter albeit with different processes in the latter case - and often they make U.K. processes look positively dynamic. There’s a railway being built in Germany now that was in the planning stages 30 years ago. The French LGV from Bordeaux to Toulouse was in detailed planning when I was on holiday in the region a decade ago. It’s still at the same stage now. The grass isn’t greener on the other side!

I’ll say what I often say - if you are so convinced that the U.K. processes are flawed for railway development and delivery, go and do something about it. Apply for a job at the DfT or Network Rail. Get to understand the processes. Then make positive suggestions on how to change them for the better, and drive them through. Get yourself involved rather than moan. But it is a lot easier to moan isn’t it.

 

[Bald Rick]

I give up.

Never give up!

 

[hooverboy]

For people like Darlorich I say this. A lot of people that frequent these forums have this belief that nothing will be made on time. That essentially makes it a lie. Politicians, the GRIP process and everything surrounding it always finds a reason to delay. We have years of cheap talk, the goal posts move numerous times. The problem something we want built will resolve fundamentally gets a lot worse before its built. Cross rail is the fastest moving project and the media state it will be over loaded with passengers within 2 or 3 years of opening.

The UK for all its investment, is still getting worse year by year due to this. And basically if your a true patriot of Britain and you love the history of this wonderful country, you want to celebrate monumental openings and things you can be proud of. That is something sorely missed in the past 30 years, it does happen from time to time. But it certainly hasn't happened anywhere near me. EWR is something local to me and I want it yesterday. Sorry for the impatience.

it's local to a few of us on here,and we understand your impatience.

the bottleneck,as always, is endless planning committees.
once the legal niceties are out of the way, things will generally roll along quite swiftly.

not to say tha I don't have criticism of NR,I most certainly do......trying to do a lot of projects all at once,rather than a rolling programme of a few projects completed quickly, then move on.
I think resources are not deployed properly.
..but you could say the same about road crews too.....lets take A14 dualling as an example. a proper hit squad could have completed the project from start to finish in about 2 years.....I could count almost 5 years worth of delays because staff were spread too thin,or planning permission of some description was pending.

 

[deltic08]

What is the BCR for this scheme?

Initially it wasn't strong enough to proceed with until someone massaged the figures by mentioning 100,000 houses and the BCR shot up to 11 point something which is huge.

 

[deltic08]

It also isnt just a DMU local service. I am not sure you understand the proposed service patterns.

E -W doesn't miss out MK at all. MK is a central part of the proposed service.

How has E -W been descoped so much that it isnt worth bothering about?

Tell us what the service patterns are then if you know.

If not electrifying when originally proposed to be electrified is not descoping then what is? Especially when nodal points of Cambridge, Bletchley, Bedford and Oxford are or will be electrified. That is simple plain line electrification in between. Battery and hydrogen bi modes can never be as quick of the mark as electric units. Electric is still the way to go on a the railway despite Graylingitis, otherwise HS2 would be diesel, battery or hydrogen fitted without disruption to services. This would be low cost electrification as access would be 24/7 until complete.

 

[Tobbes]

I’ll say what I often say - if you are so convinced that the U.K. processes are flawed for railway development and delivery, go and do something about it. Apply for a job at the DfT or Network Rail. Get to understand the processes. Then make positive suggestions on how to change them for the better, and drive them through. Get yourself involved rather than moan. But it is a lot easier to moan isn’t it.

Sound advice.

The things that could really speed things up are largely undesirable: would you want to remove protections for private property if it were your house that were being CPO'd? Do you think that the "green crap" to quote a former minister should be dispensed with in order to hurry things up, and to hell with the consequences? Is the tedium of design optimisation and consultation so bad that it would be simply better to spray millions of pounds of your money around the countryside and see what works (if so, I'll see the Mid-Suffolk system complete yet!)

Would we like to speed things up? Yes.

Are we sure that we're building the new projects as efficiently as possible rather than with arbitrary annual spendng caps? No, I'm not (HS2 seems to be being built at the rate of c. £2bn a year as that was former Crossrail funding).

And that's where I'd focus my fire: once the design is complete and committed, build it as efficiently as possible, even if (HMT heresey) this means that the budget may not fit existing plans.

 

[DarloRich]

Tell us what the service patterns are then if you know.

If not electrifying when originally proposed to be electrified is not descoping then what is? Especially when nodal points of Cambridge, Bletchley, Bedford and Oxford are or will be electrified. That is simple plain line electrification in between. Battery and hydrogen bi modes can never be as quick of the mark as electric units. Electric is still the way to go on a the railway despite Graylingitis, otherwise HS2 would be diesel, battery or hydrogen fitted without disruption to services. This would be low cost electrification as access would be 24/7 until complete.

Try Google: the suggested service pattern is on the e-w website

Also see @Bald Rick above re scope.

Initially it wasn't strong enough to proceed with until someone massaged the figures by mentioning 100,000 houses and the BCR shot up to 11 point something which is huge.

Why do some posters here always see a conspiracy where none exisits. Google housing in aylesbury vale and marston vale.

 

[deltic08]

The problem we have with transport in this country is that no Transport Secretary ever thinks long term.

Or in Graylings case even thinks!

 

[deltic08]

Try Google: the suggested service pattern is on the e-w website

Also see @Bald Rick above re scope.



Why do some posters here always see a conspiracy where none exisits. Google housing in aylesbury vale and marston vale.

What is an exisits?

What are you talking about? Who mentioned conspiracy? If you read all the BCR anal ysis, the original BCR wasn't high enough to proceed. There was no mention of housing.

Then suddenly another one appeared 'sexed up' including the possibility of 80-100,000 houses, although not specific where they would be needed or located, with a BCR of 11. It is fact but hardly believable even to my professional friends who do this for a living with large consultancies.