Beggars at railway stations

[jon0844]

..and there was me thinking they would be on the case immediately to sort out any potential trouble....that is the purpose of the phone line is it not?

how is a reference number and cctv going to stop another parsons green type event?...they are tools for dealing with aftermath, not crime in progress.

They had from the time I reported it having left Finsbury Park to when it arrived at King's Cross. I was hoping they'd have police there by then, but sadly not. I was contacted with a request for a detailed description after he'd gone, but I've since had contact from someone saying it's the same person as seen elsewhere in the core on another day. So I am sure with a check of CCTV, they'll have a good lead.

In an ideal world, they'd have got him there and then, but if they pick him up at a later stage and realise it's the same person, they can perhaps do him for multiple instances. Maybe they've already checked CCTV to identify his movements?

As for your reference to Parsons Green, I reported him as being a tissue seller. I didn't say I thought he might have some improvised explosive. I'd rather hope that had I said that, they'd have dropped everything to attend.

 

[Wychwood93]

..and there was me thinking they would be on the case immediately to sort out any potential trouble....that is the purpose of the phone line is it not?

how is a reference number and cctv going to stop another parsons green type event?...they are tools for dealing with aftermath, not crime in progress.

Correct - the CCTV for safety and security is only of use until there is a victim situation. Once there is a victim it becomes the 'aftermath' (Rolling Stones album - no relevance at all!) - you, me, my wife, my family could well be victims. I would like resolution, yes, but the event has happened by then - CCTV does not prevent (watch Crimewatch now and again) the event actually happening. If certain people are going to do things …. then they will. An off-topic bit of angst - my apology for that. DS

 

[marko2]

..and there was me thinking they would be on the case immediately to sort out any potential trouble....that is the purpose of the phone line is it not?

how is a reference number and cctv going to stop another parsons green type event?...they are tools for dealing with aftermath, not crime in progress.

The Police report crime statistics. If you are a report and get a crime reference, it counts They also are required to clear up crime, so them no doing so looks conspicuous.

 

[jon0844]

Reported another tissue seller today, this time on a TL train between West Hampstead and St Pancras (well, I got off and he didn't - he just walked down the train).

I told him I'd reported him to the police but he didn't seem put off. Also said 'no English' and acted so similar to the person on Monday that I wondered if it was the same person. Got a photo of him too (nice to have a 3x zoom on the phone so I could take it from a distance) and it wasn't him.

A passenger then came up to me who had given money and asked what business it was of mine picking on a poor desperate man. I pointed out it was funding organised crime and the notes are all identical, but didn't want an argument. He suggested I didn't know any of this and couldn't prove his story wasn't real.

So people like that are why these people will continue to operate, although it is odd that so long went by without it happening.

BTP gave another crime reference.

I've also seen the exact same badly photocopied note on the floor of a 313 too. How many people have a kid needing an operation? And wouldn't the NHS do it for free? People clearly don't even read the note.

 

[tsr]

The regular BTP reference numbers (format eg. 123 of date x/y/2019) which you receive after reporting something are not crime references. They’re just event log numbers, which don’t generate a formal crime statistic.

The “criming” team, or whatever they’re called nowadays, will analyse any particularly serious reports (and sometimes others chosen seemingly at random) and see if they want to investigate further if they believe a crime may have been committed. In my experience, this process applies to maybe less than 10% of logged reports, rightly or wrongly. This figure may be higher for reporting from passengers vs staff, as most passengers are perhaps more likely to only report really serious incidents, which are also more likely to need investigation.

In these cases, a crime reference number will then be generated, a data entry for crime statistics will likely be made, and the matter will be passed on for statements, CCTV downloads etc.

(As well as the criming system, the BTP contact centre and controllers will have decided on any immediate response when reading the text report, much like an email or phone call. This procedure, obviously, actually comes first.)

 

[Joseph_Locke]

Begging in any form is just laziness (or organised crime, a distinction without a difference).

There was a post earlier that tried to contrast homelessness and smoking, saying that one was self inflicted and one wasn't.

They are both self inflicted. As is drug abuse. We are slowly becoming a society of needy dependents - we've all had bad times, been short of money and friends, scared and alone at some point, but we don't all turn to drink, drugs, etc., so it isn't a given.

"Homeless and desperate" - have a wash (and a shave) and get a job - there are plenty around.
"Oooh, I've been criticised on social media, my life is over, help me" - suggestion: don't use social media.

That's what I think - if you think differently then do by all means say so, but then that's your view, not mine.

(I wholeheartedly expect this post to be deleted, because it is bound to cause offence to someone in this land of Snowflakes)

 

[fowler9]

Begging in any form is just laziness (or organised crime, a distinction without a difference).

There was a post earlier that tried to contrast homelessness and smoking, saying that one was self inflicted and one wasn't.

They are both self inflicted. As is drug abuse. We are slowly becoming a society of needy dependents - we've all had bad times, been short of money and friends, scared and alone at some point, but we don't all turn to drink, drugs, etc., so it isn't a given.

"Homeless and desperate" - have a wash (and a shave) and get a job - there are plenty around.
"Oooh, I've been criticised on social media, my life is over, help me" - suggestion: don't use social media.

That's what I think - if you think differently then do by all means say so, but then that's your view, not mine.

(I wholeheartedly expect this post to be deleted, because it is bound to cause offence to someone in this land of Snowflakes)

This snowflake hopes your post stays on as an example of a person with a complete lack of compassion and empathy and no belief in society. If you truly believe in survival of the fittest (physically and mentally) then be careful what you wish for.

 

[cjp]

Begging in any form is just laziness (or organised crime, a distinction without a difference).

There was a post earlier that tried to contrast homelessness and smoking, saying that one was self inflicted and one wasn't.

They are both self inflicted. As is drug abuse. We are slowly becoming a society of needy dependents - we've all had bad times, been short of money and friends, scared and alone at some point, but we don't all turn to drink, drugs, etc., so it isn't a given.

"Homeless and desperate" - have a wash (and a shave) and get a job - there are plenty around.
"Oooh, I've been criticised on social media, my life is over, help me" - suggestion: don't use social media.

That's what I think - if you think differently then do by all means say so, but then that's your view, not mine.

(I wholeheartedly expect this post to be deleted, because it is bound to cause offence to someone in this land of Snowflakes)

Unfortunately there are no longer plenty of jobs around and that means with our nanny state there are people with no jobs and aspirations to have what working people have funded either by benefits or begging.
Note my signature.

 

[Iskra]

Unfortunately there are no longer plenty of jobs around and that means with our nanny state there are people with no jobs and aspirations to have what working people have funded either by benefits or begging.
Note my signature.

There are plenty of jobs. They're just ones that people prefer not to do. Always plenty of cleaning and caring jobs going.

 

[Metal_gee_man]

Some of the sympathisers on this thread need to make an effort to check out a documentary on Channel 4 where Ed Stafford (Naked & Afraid on Discovery Channel) spend 60 days living on the streets
He bumps into so many homeless people that have no good reason to be homeless, they choose to be homeless, they can make more money on the streets, they are better fed on the streets, and they have homes to sleep in, in some cases!

https://www.channel4.com/programmes/60-days-on-the-streets

 

[156443]

There was one outside Sunderland Station today when I came down there to photograph some buses and he was asking for change. I was round the corner on Fawcett Street when a PCSO came past on a bike and heard his radio saying there was a smackhead outside of the Station asking for change, so he went across the road in the direction of the Station, guessing someone had used 61016 to report them.

The “smackhead” luckily had gone by the time of returning to the Station.

 

[Taunton]

There are plenty of jobs. They're just ones that people prefer not to do.

There tends to be a confusion of "Unemployed" with "Unemployable".

 

[Darandio]

"Homeless and desperate" - have a wash (and a shave) and get a job - there are plenty around.

To simply suggest that a homeless person needs to have a wash, shave and then get a job shows an enormous ignorance towards the predicament of many people in this situation.

 

[ic31420]

In my day job I work with/against some of these people...

A couple of quotes from separate people when asked why they're doing nothing to sort out their money/some accommodation ...

"They want me to get to the job centre for 9am.... I can't do that!" (Job centre is about a mile and a half away)

" I can't go to the town centre I'm barred because I was caught begging" (no such ban exists) when I pointed out that a different town was a 90min walk in the opposite direction with the same services. I was told to f off...


If my income and housing depended on it I'd get my backside to the council office at whatever time they wanted.

 

[Wychwood93]

In my day job I work with/against some of these people...

A couple of quotes from separate people when asked why they're doing nothing to sort out their money/some accommodation ...

"They want me to get to the job centre for 9am.... I can't do that!" (Job centre is about a mile and a half away)

" I can't go to the town centre I'm barred because I was caught begging" (no such ban exists) when I pointed out that a different town was a 90min walk in the opposite direction with the same services. I was told to f off...


If my income and housing depended on it I'd get my backside to the council office at whatever time they wanted.

Good post.

 

[Clayton]

There are plenty of jobs. They're just ones that people prefer not to do. Always plenty of cleaning and caring jobs going.

Right, you would employ a homeless druggie to work in an old people’s home? People like you and the previous poster like to come over as worldly wise, tough and practical but really you are like children. Have you no knowledge of life and of the problems some people have faced when growing up?

 

[Iskra]

Right, you would employ a homeless druggie to work in an old people’s home? People like you and the previous poster like to come over as worldly wise, tough and practical but really you are like children. Have you no knowledge of life and of the problems some people have faced when growing up?

Ridiculous post.

 

[janahan]

As has been said before, its best to provide a cup of coffee, or a sandwich instead of giving money. This is what I try to do. This is actually a good thing for the genuine homeless, as even if you did give money, they are not able to use that money effectively (I am sure most "establishments" would try to refuse entry to a genuine homeless person). This will help stop the financial "opportunists" and genuinely help those who are really homeless.

Also if you feel threatened, do not engage at all. Although not common, there are some people who are high on drugs, or members of a gang, who will cause harm if they feel you are "not playing their game". Not worth gettign knifed/have acid thrown on.

Just have a bit of a general common sense, keep your phone hidden (you REALLY do not need to check your facebook status walking into and around a station), do not appear to be too distracted, and call the Police if you feel GENUINELY threatened by someone.

 

[ic31420]

As has been said before, its best to provide a cup of coffee, or a sandwich instead of giving money. This is what I try to do. This is actually a good thing for the genuine homeless, as even if you did give money, they are not able to use that money effectively.

It's not unusual for them to say thanks for food and then ask for a few quid. One particular persistent beggars usual spot is against the parapet wallboard a rail overbridge. Behind the wall is littered with thousands of pound bakery pasties and food etc he has been given and tossed over the wall. It caused a bit of storm in the local media when someone captured him repeatedly tossing donated food over the wall on dashcam. Other beggers I've spoken to are disgusted by him because they say he'll throw donations infront of the giver.

It then transpired he had a flat, paid for by benefits etc but preferred to sleep on the streets and beg.

Another storm was caused when the council were filmed binning one homeless guys stuff. It was later reported that he had been given a flat, with a toaster, bed and kettle but was complaining that he had no white goods and furnishings. As a result he went back on the streets.

The mind boggles, but equally we must not judge others by our own standards.

Aggressive and dishonest / fraudulent begging is a different matter. A colleague got a fraud conviction for somebody begging with a homeless sign when they had a home....But that was some years ago.

If you want to give to homeless / beggers give to a group, choose that group carefully. Tell beggers then to access that group.

Beggers tell me stories of well meaning people going around town handing out dozens of bags containing a bottle of whiskey, 20cigs, a morrisons voucher and cakes. (they openly told me they then sold the whiskey, cigs and voucher to buy some crack and a good night was had by all on the ground floor of the carpark) another a story that a woman bought him a sandwich and talked to him. So he told her he needed £25 for a hostel that night so she gave him that, she went back to the supermarket he was at later and brought him some of her families tea, he then told her he needed another £20 to get to the hostel so yes she gave him that. The following day she went back and gave him £100 for a few nights accommodation. I can't remember how exactly but she then found out it was all rubbish.

 

[fowler9]

I fear that what most people think is that what the folks on the streets did was choose to get in to smack and booze and then go begging. I reckon it is the other way around for many. They find themselves in a bad place and start self medicating. After that it is a very quick route to disaster.

 

[Mark J]

Outside of Reading station, very frequently there always someone begging, walking up to people entering or leaving the station. Gets really irritating at some point, especially if you get asked everyday...

They tend to loiter around outside the Pub/area outside the newer entrance in the evenings. This is why I tend to exit via the old concourse (and out through the door by the Railair lounge) in the evening/at night to avoid being harassed by the same old faces.

However, surely BTP have some jurisdiction in this area directly outside the station, to tell them to clear off?

 

[furnessvale]

They tend to loiter around outside the Pub/area outside the newer entrance in the evenings. This is why I tend to exit via the old concourse (and out through the door by the Railair lounge) in the evening/at night to avoid being harassed by the same old faces.

However, surely BTP have some jurisdiction in this area directly outside the station, to tell them to clear off?

Yes. I have already posted in this thread that jurisdiction is (or was in my day) "In, on and in the vicinity of premises, and elsewhere in matters affecting the Board"

 

[FozzQuaker]

When I was a kid in the mid-90's I lived in a childrens home somewhere in County Durham, I was in a bad place at the time and was doing questionable things with questionable people, one of that lads I live with made Del Boy Trotter look like an angel, always thinking where the next pound coin was coming from, he somehow managed to get on the dole at 16 despite living in a childrens home, he was able to get his hands on anything, which we would then sell round college where I was doing a course.

One other trick we had was begging in Newcastle and sometimes Berwick, outside the train stations, ans even on trains to/from Berwick and Newcastle, not ever having being a hardened drug taker or alcoholic, I just begged so I could have a few more quid than what the Childrens Home was giving me.

Being the person I am, I naturally have a guilty conscience and not very good at lying, so I would ask people for money, if people challenged, I would not go into full detail, but would readily admit I was in a childrens home, but not go into the full circumstances of my situation, sometimes people would buy me a pint or a coffee, or a Big Mac etc and there was times when I have sat with people who just appreciated the company and someone to talk to.

In the end, I stopped when my mate at the time was coming up with more elaborate lies, I lost count of how many family funerals he needed to get to, and I cut him loose when he tried to get a dog, despite having nowhere to keep it at home, but the limit for me was him nearly getting the childrens home into serious trouble when he claimed he was being neglected and the fact he was pinching Big Issues to sell.

A part of my life I am not particularly proud of, and I now recognise that part of my life as the onset of my present mental health problems.

I am generally sympathetic to beggars, like someone else has said on this thread, dont lie to me, if you want money for booze, just say so, theres more chance of me giving something if I am told the truth.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I am generally sympathetic to beggars, like someone else has said on this thread, dont lie to me, if you want money for booze, just say so, theres more chance of me giving something if I am told the truth.

Absolutely. I hate liars, and liars get nothing from me, ever, assuming I have worked out they are lying.

Indeed, I'd find "need money for alcohol to get me through the freezing night" quite difficult not to donate to in some ways... (Though I prefer donating to homeless charities).

 

[OneOffDave]

There are plenty of jobs. They're just ones that people prefer not to do. Always plenty of cleaning and caring jobs going.

Yeah because with no address and a difficulty clearing a CRB check there are thousands of jobs in the care sector for homeless people

 

[Wychwood93]

Absolutely. I hate liars, and liars get nothing from me, ever, assuming I have worked out they are lying.

Indeed, I'd find "need money for alcohol to get me through the freezing night" quite difficult not to donate to in some ways... (Though I prefer donating to homeless charities).

Unless I am mistaken additional alcohol on a freezing night would be the worst thing - unless you want to hasten death.

 

[Jonny]

There are plenty of jobs. They're just ones that people prefer not to do. Always plenty of cleaning and caring jobs going.

Yeah because with no address and a difficulty clearing a CRB check there are thousands of jobs in the care sector for homeless people

Also, some cleaning jobs involve access to sensitive areas (whether information or valuable goods) or involve unsupervised or potentially unsupervised access to vulnerable people, possibly enough to tip the threshold for additional checks (e.g. if cleaning in premises where everyone else working there needed a higher/enhanced clearance).

 

[FozzQuaker]

Another time, I was at Waterloo, as my train was not till the following morning, I kipped in a corner of the Train Station, some guy was hanging about near me, being paranoid as I am, I tried to shake him off before I settled down, as I was keeping a low profile, I had went AWOL from my Childrens Home when I was 17, I had won enough on a Horse Race to disappear for 3 days, I would end up in Redruth.

In the end, it turned out the guy at Waterloo wanted someone to talk to, ended up just sitting talking to him most of the night because that was round about the time I was doing all that mad s**t I described before

 

[trebor79]

A beggar came down the circle line train I was on on Wednesday afternoon. Very politely regaling us all with some cock and bull story about needing £4.40 to get a bed for the night. He was filthy and dressed in dirty clothes. But he didn't smell at all and his designer stubble was well groomed.
Someone gave him some money "Thank you sir, you're an angel" and then he dashed out of the train quick smart at the next stop.
Pretty sure he was a professional beggar.

 

[Bookd]

Although not directly related to rail a while ago I took a night bus from London to Heathrow on a Sunday - SW trains were closed for engineering and I had forgotten that LU closed earlier on a Sunday.
This was shortly after a TV documentary about homeless people who use the night buses as part of their lifestyle and I found that I was sitting next to one such.
He was well spoken, well dressed, and we had a friendly talk - the bus was full to standing and we exchanged views on some of the less welcome passengers.
On arrival at Heathrow Central he met with others he knew, who seemed to be other normal civilised people, and as I understand it they can use the facilities at the terminal without aggravation. The bus route is the longest in London and later on, when passengers are few, a couple of round trips will give them some sleep in relative comfort.
It is not a lifestyle that I would wish for but shows initiative and presuming that they can find the fare might be a relief from sleeping in a doorway.