Stagecoach disqualified from three franchise competitions

[paddy1]

Regards first class though, First on the face of it would seem perfectly capable of a decent offering. They do run Pullman dining trains on GWR after all.

Yes, but unlike Virgin, most of it is not complimentary as you have to pay for meals and alcohol.

 

[pt_mad]

Yes, but unlike Virgin, most of it is not complimentary as you have to pay for meals and alcohol.

Is the First Class catering included in the franchise spec? I ask because I genuinely have no idea whether it is or isn't? Might some level of complementary food offering be compulsory or is it the choice of the TOC?

 

[Bletchleyite]

So if the new brand isn't coming over as cheap and cheerful, maybe that's not what they're going for? Especially if they're lengthening and refurbishing trains and bringing in new trains and longer distance routes? Perhaps they wish to be perceived as more serious like how Greater Anglia is?

With unfunny "joke" style posters like "no smoking, no vaping, no candlestick making" they certainly aren't going for a professional look, either. Scruffy and unprofessional is the impression it gives me, TBH.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Is the First Class catering included in the franchise spec? I ask because I genuinely have no idea whether it is or isn't? Might some level of complementary food offering be compulsory or is it the choice of the TOC?

First class and catering is not part of any franchise spec.
First class fares are not regulated either, and can include/exclude catering.
While I'm sure the DfT wants a good first/catering offer on long-distance services, they leave it up to the TOC.
I think LM was the only franchise to remove all catering where it was previously provided, even in first class on 3-hour journeys.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think LM was the only franchise to remove all catering where it was previously provided, even in first class on 3-hour journeys.

While I can see why it was removed on all the other services, I can't see how they couldn't make it pay (to the extent it ever does) on the Trent Valley services, as the intermediate stations are rather sparse where it comes to provision at the station.

 

[paddy1]

Is the First Class catering included in the franchise spec? I ask because I genuinely have no idea whether it is or isn't? Might some level of complementary food offering be compulsory or is it the choice of the TOC?

Not one I can answer but no doubt there will be many on here with far greater knowledge of the spec who can.

 

[StaffsWCML]

I don't get that. The current service pattern is the same as under LM as things stand. So how has the price point and smaller station connectivity changed since the franchise changed hands? I don't quite see how personality can come from a green yellow and black train livery and logo? The new operator has already wrapped 10 trains in special livery such as Harry Potter world which surely is giving things some personality?


So basically you're suggesting that was bargain basement type operation in the way Megabus can be perceived? Did everyone get a seat or are longer trains more of a desire from commuters and more general travelers? Longer trains and new trains without drastic price increases sounds like a win win to me.


The price point hasn't changed as yet though has it? And were longer trains not the ultimate aspiration? The LM service offer did appear to tread water for quite a few years towards the end with lack of new services, with the main strength being the free WiFi and entertainment offer, and ultra low advances, which afaik are still available now?

Perhaps bright marketing appealed but surely this doesn't outweigh longer trains, newer trains, new routes and connectivity and new frequencies?

I would say though that one of the biggest successes was project 110mph on the Trent Valley Line. If that hadn't happened we have no idea how things would be along that route today and in the future.

It hasn't changed yet, but my understanding is that they will be reducing services soon. Taking away direct London connections from certain stations.

Have they put any new trains into service yet? Abellio are quite good at promising new trains but delivery seems quite poor, I cant comment on the Anglia service as haven't been across there.

Just see the services here in the midlands are awful, to lose Virgin and East Midlands mildly competent and less run of the mill offerings is a shame is my main point.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

It hasn't changed yet, but my understanding is that they will be reducing services soon. Taking away direct London connections from certain stations.
Have they put any new trains into service yet? Abellio are quite good at promising new trains but delivery seems quite poor, I cant comment on the Anglia service as haven't been across there.
Just see the services here in the midlands are awful, to lose Virgin and East Midlands mildly competent and less run of the mill offerings is a shame is my main point.

I don't think any stations lose London services (but they might take a longer route via Birmingham).
Stations on the Rugeley line will get new London services (eg Cannock), also places like Penkridge, Winsford and Liverpool South Parkway.
New trains aren't due yet, but extra 350s from TPE will be coming fairly soon. More 172s are also transferring from LO.
Electric trains to Rugeley means its DMUs will be redeployed, with an extra Birmingham-Shrewsbury hourly service.
London-TV-Crewe services will be mostly 8-car.
If you think WM services are "awful" you obviously don't get to the north or Wales much!

 

[RealTrains07]

A shame if Virgin cease to operate on the West Coast. They raised the bar on first class rail travel in the UK with complimentary meals and alcohol, forcing East Coast to up their game in first, as well as doing their best to get longer trains on the WCML with Pendolinos being extended from 8/9 car up to 11 cars. It beggars belief that when First initially won the WCML franchise that they were proposing only 6 car Pendolinos on Birmigham - Scotland when you see how busy the 9/11 car trains are now on that route.

If Virgin go, I can't see any of the possible new franchisees maintaining the same first offer in first class, which will mean there will no longer any incentive for the ECML operator to match that of Virgin, and WCML first class will become the same as all the others. Can't see all the WCML first class lounges surviving either.

On the other hand, am pleased to see the back Of Stagecoach on the MML and being crammed into 4 or 5 car Meridians on busy long distance routes as well as their spartan Sunday service on the MML.

Cross country is just as bad as well with their 4 or 5 car voyagers stretching longer distances compared to the MML.
What a terrible train type

 

[RealTrains07]

I don't think any stations lose London services (but they might take a longer route via Birmingham).
Stations on the Rugeley line will get new London services (eg Cannock), also places like Penkridge, Winsford and Liverpool South Parkway.
New trains aren't due yet, but extra 350s from TPE will be coming fairly soon. More 172s are also transferring from LO.
Electric trains to Rugeley means its DMUs will be redeployed, with an extra Birmingham-Shrewsbury hourly service.
London-TV-Crewe services will be mostly 8-car.
If you think WM services are "awful" you obviously don't get to the north or Wales much!

It hasn't changed yet, but my understanding is that they will be reducing services soon. Taking away direct London connections from certain stations.

Have they put any new trains into service yet? Abellio are quite good at promising new trains but delivery seems quite poor, I cant comment on the Anglia service as haven't been across there.

Just see the services here in the midlands are awful, to lose Virgin and East Midlands mildly competent and less run of the mill offerings is a shame is my main point.

350/4 transfers due in december, 172 transfers from LO due to start running next month (apparently) and rumour has it the new 196s are due in december

So at least improvements are starting however it could all change if the timetable goes belly up. It wont look good then.

 

[StaffsWCML]

I don't think any stations lose London services (but they might take a longer route via Birmingham).
Stations on the Rugeley line will get new London services (eg Cannock), also places like Penkridge, Winsford and Liverpool South Parkway.
New trains aren't due yet, but extra 350s from TPE will be coming fairly soon. More 172s are also transferring from LO.
Electric trains to Rugeley means its DMUs will be redeployed, with an extra Birmingham-Shrewsbury hourly service.
London-TV-Crewe services will be mostly 8-car.
If you think WM services are "awful" you obviously don't get to the north or Wales much!

My understanding is that some would lose the direct London service but I would have to double check that .

Oh I have had the misfortune of using Northern by Arriva they are quite simply horrific, have to admit I have never used anything in Wales other than Virgin and Scotrail also Abellio owned are also absolutely awful.

Basically there is a whole host of substandard providers with fairly consistent levels of substandard delivery, my main point being the DfT are removing 2 of the better performing providers according to customer satisfaction, seems odd.

Maybe the Chinese is the best option for something fresh, although I tend to think they maybe naive expecting our 100 year old railways to operate anything like their brand new Chinese ones!

 

[ainsworth74]

I think we're getting well off-topic here. Improvements or otherwise to the West Midlands Franchise are best discussed in one of the existing threads (or if there isn't one a new thread). So please lets get back onto the issue with Stagecoach. Any other posts may be deleted for being off-topic.

 

[cactustwirly]

My understanding is that some would lose the direct London service but I would have to double check that .

Oh I have had the misfortune of using Northern by Arriva they are quite simply horrific, have to admit I have never used anything in Wales other than Virgin and Scotrail also Abellio owned are also absolutely awful.

Basically there is a whole host of substandard providers with fairly consistent levels of substandard delivery, my main point being the DfT are removing 2 of the better performing providers according to customer satisfaction, seems odd.

Maybe the Chinese is the best option for something fresh, although I tend to think they maybe naive expecting our 100 year old railways to operate anything like their brand new Chinese ones!

They're all crap! Stagecoach are only marginally better than Arriva, I'd say that Abellio are one of the best of the lot tbh

 

[Goldfish62]

If there is a legal challenge in the 10-day standstill period, it could well delay the new franchise start date, and any proposed rolling stock contracts.
Some challenges fail quite quickly, but others drag on through the courts until honour is satisfied.
Stagecoach has nothing to lose with a challenge, with no other franchise at stake.

City AM reports that Stagecoach has also asked for the standstill period to be extended by 14 days.

 

[Tom Quinne]

The final salary scheme should be abolished because they are not sustainable. This has happened at pretty much every single company.

If that isn't possible, the Government is really the only place for it to be kept safe.

I assume your not in one then?

Why should people who are lucky enough to be in one, and pay extra on top of the compulsory payments to ensure a decent retirement suffer ?

I started paying into my RPS pension the day I joined the railway at 21, I’m in be RPS Final Salary 65 Scheme - I pay around 14% (I think) each month into it, and on top of that another £200 pm into BRASS to try and ensure my wife and I are okay financially when I retire - I for one would strike for as long as it took to protect my final salary scheme as I’ve 26 years left !

 

[Tom Quinne]

So the TOCs can agree to above inflation pay rises year after year, far higher than most other workers get, and the tax payer can deal with their final salary pensions? I can’t see any problem with that at all.

We seem to forget that railway workers ARE taxpayers, we also pay a significant amount of tax as well.

 

[dk1]

We seem to forget that railway workers ARE taxpayers, we also pay a significant amount of tax as well.

You can say that again (not literally)

 

[whhistle]

I wonder when Abellio discovered their two rivals had chosen to ignore the pensions issue and had submitted non-compliant bids? If they had known the other two were going to do that might they have chosen to do the same - leaving the DfT with a lot of egg on face.

Or rather make sure they submitted a compliant bid and almost guarantee they'd win?
After all, that's what it was about, winning a franchise.

 

[whhistle]

(thinking about Virgin...)

It's funny how some people seem to think the company will change overnight?
How do we know the new company won't continue the wackiness that's been built up over the years?
It sure isn't going to change within a few months!

 

[paddy1]

Cross country is just as bad as well with their 4 or 5 car voyagers stretching longer distances compared to the MML.
What a terrible train type

Agree that Cross Country as just as bad with short trains on busy long distance routes. Meridian/Voyager stock I can put up with if there are plenty of seats, but there hardly ever is. However, 4 or 5 car Meridian on MML under Stagecoach has ever increasingly become the norm, but many still think they're an absolutely wonderful TOC. Hope new operator on MML will see a return to full length InterCity stock on all services, whether express or semi fast, as well as a much improved frequency and faster service on a Sunday instead of the current dire offering.

 

[edwin_m]

Agree that Cross Country as just as bad with short trains on busy long distance routes. Meridian/Voyager stock I can put up with if there are plenty of seats, but there hardly ever is. However, 4 or 5 car Meridian on MML under Stagecoach has ever increasingly become the norm, but many still think they're an absolutely wonderful TOC. Hope new operator on MML will see a return to full length InterCity stock on all services, whether express or semi fast, as well as a much improved frequency and faster service on a Sunday instead of the current dire offering.

The 5-car and a few 4-car Meridians replaced 3-car Turbostars, which were only 2-car when initially ordered 20 years ago. Before that the basic service pattern via Leicester was only half-hourly with stops south of Leicester being fairly random. The successors to those services are still, with a few exceptions at the ends of the day, formed of at least 7 cars. So unlike Cross Country, I don't think it's fair to say that MML/MET have replaced full-length trains by half-length.

 

[tbtc]

4 or 5 car Meridian on MML under Stagecoach has ever increasingly become the norm, but many still think they're an absolutely wonderful TOC. Hope new operator on MML will see a return to full length InterCity stock on all services, whether express or semi fast, as well as a much improved frequency and faster service on a Sunday instead of the current dire offering.

Worth putting a bit of context on things:

Midland Main Line services were every ninety minutes (each) from London to Nottingham/ Sheffield until around 1990 (with HSTs slowly replacing Class 45s).

They were then increased to every sixty minutes (and remained at that frequency when National Express won the first franchise - the slightly confusingly named Midland Mainline - i.e. two words)

National Express bought thirteen two coach 170s to provide stopping services every sixty minutes (each) from London to Nottingham/ Derby (as well as occasional extensions to Burton/ Matlock/ Barnsley). These services stopped regularly at stations south of Leicester, rather than the haphazard stopping pattern that the HSTs had - and also allowed the HSTs to be sped up. However these services were designed to wait ten minutes (?) at Leicester, connecting with the HST services, so very slow all the way from London to Nottingham/ Derby

National Express extended most of the two coach 170s to become three coach 170s

National Express replaced the coach 170s with sixteen four coach 222s (and ordered seven nine coach 222s for a proposed Leeds service that was never granted paths)

Instead the twenty three 222s were reformed into five and seven coach lengths (with, I think one or two four coach trains remaining due to the imbalance in carriage numbers) and the "slow" Derby service extended to Sheffield (though initially with terrible paths, no time to stop at Chesterfield much of the day, running within five minutes of the existing London service)

Additional 222s were brought in from Hull Trains (partly to permit the Corby service to run), and later some six coach HSTs from Grand Central

So, unlike a number of other TOCs, "full length" trains haven't been replaced by "half sized" trains - if anything the "half sized" trains have replaced "quarter sized" trains!

If things don't look perfect today then they look about as good as they've ever done on the MML (which has always been a secondary route in my lifetime). Yes, I'd like longer trains, and more Standard Class seats on the badly ratio'd 222s but we've come a long way, baby!

To keep things simple, I'm ignoring the period when Nottingham went down to just an hourly service (with the "slow" Nottingham path being used for the Project Rio service to Manchester)

(and, as usual, @edwin_m has explained things much better - and much faster - than I managed!)

 

[whhistle]

Virgin's view on things:

What has been announced?
The Department for Transport has disqualified us from the competition to win the West Coast Partnership.

Why have they done this?
The Department for Transport said it is because we wouldn’t take on certain financial risks they wanted us to. We’re still studying the DfT’s decision, which came completely out of the blue.

What were the financial risks?
You may see from the coverage today that the major part of the risks we were not willing to take on relates to pensions. The DfT’s position regarding these risks weren’t in line with recommendations from previous rail reviews.
Please rest assured that this is an industry-wide issue relating to long-term funding. The security of your pension is a top priority for us, with the most recent valuation showing our scheme to be fully funded.

Can we change the mind of the Government or challenge their decision?
We’re still studying the DfT’s decision and aren’t clear if there are grounds to yet.

If we’re disqualified, who will be running the West Coast Partnership?
We’re expecting the Department for Transport to announce its preferred bidder in June. We know there are bids from MTR and First Group. We will be running the West Coast as Virgin Trains until at least November.

What’s happening with Stagecoach’s other bids?
Stagecoach had also submitted bids for the East Midlands franchise, and the South Eastern franchise.

These have both also been disqualified today (10 April), along with ours, for the same reason.

The DfT today (10 April) has awarded the East Midlands franchise to one of Stagecoach’s competitors, Abellio. They’ve also announced there will be a short extension to the current franchise holder on South Eastern while they decide what to do with that competition.

Is this anything to do with what happened with the Virgin Trains East Coast franchise?
The short answer is no, the two situations are separate. We had clear assurances from the DfT that we’d be treated independently of VTEC, and it was made clear to us we’re totally different businesses.

In fact, we had our passport to bid renewed after VTEC changed hands and became LNER.

Is my pension safe?
Yes. The last valuation of our pension was shown to be fully funded, which means it’s in a safe position today. We have been making the contributions necessary to keep it in good health and you should be assured no money can be withdrawn from the pot without Secretary of State approval.
We understand there are many other questions with regards to pensions. At this stage, despite its disqualification, the details of our bid remain confidential – this is important in case we have an option to challenge the decision.

We cannot therefore go into detail about the reasons related to our disqualification.

Nothing that isn't really already known.
I guess it's hard to say anything as a legal challenge is still possible.

 

[OxtedSignaller]

I am confused because I thought that the RPS was split into sections. Some sections are in better state than others so surely it depends on the contract. So are TOCs being asked to contribute to individual sections or are they being asked to pay towards all sections.

 

[Elecman]

Each section is independant hence why the 2-3 sections have failed when employers Jarvis/ Fastline an£ others went bust instead of being cross subsidised through the RPS as a whole

 

[Tom Quinne]

I am confused because I thought that the RPS was split into sections. Some sections are in better state than others so surely it depends on the contract. So are TOCs being asked to contribute to individual sections or are they being asked to pay towards all sections.

My understanding is the RPS is divided into sections, when I moved from a TOC to Network Rail I had the choice of freezing my TOC pot and starting a fresh with NWR or moving it across - I moved it across, Ive heard the NWR section is in surplus as well according to the RPS section newsletter.

 

[Rail Blues]

Cross country is just as bad as well with their 4 or 5 car voyagers stretching longer distances compared to the MML.
What a terrible train type

They're far from terrible, their downfall is that when they were ordered, the significantgrowth in passenger numbers wasn't foreseen.

 

[Rail Blues]

Why should there be anything funny about them? I don't expect them to make me laugh any more than I expect Billy Connolly to move me around the country.

Agreed a thousand times over. I find Virgin's forced brand of humour to be nauseating and infantile. I resolutely do not want someone's attempts at faux mateyness and office jokeresque patter rammed down my throat. If i want entertainment on the train, I'll listen to music and read a book.

On a grey Monday in November I don't really mind a train company that at least try to make my day a little less mundane!

If have never ever met anyone who has found Virgin's twaddle entertaining. There had to be someone out there who liked it and you're he. That must make you an endqngered species.

I just (as per the Spitting image song) meet a nice white South African to complete the set.

 

[Goldfish62]

They're far from terrible, their downfall is that when they were ordered, the significantgrowth in passenger numbers wasn't foreseen.

There are howlers in their design, though, such as the aircon ducting above the luggage shelves, the universal toilets throughout and the excessive vibration from the engines.

 

[Bletchleyite]

They're far from terrible, their downfall is that when they were ordered, the significantgrowth in passenger numbers wasn't foreseen.

They were overcrowded from day one because there was actually a reduction in capacity with an increased frequency certain to bring in more passengers. Whoever didn't "foresee" that causing problems was, bluntly, thick, or if it was wilfully ignored they were incompetent.