Caledonian Sleeper

[Bald Rick]

Well, just booked a Glasgow to London trip for the middle of next month (saves another night in a hotel and hanging round Glasgow until gone midday waiting for the first easyJet back to Stansted). First class was only a tenner more, so booked that and hoping it'll be the new stock with an en suite shower.

Of course you could have got one of several other flights from Glasgow to London that arrive before 0900, and made your way to your destination on train via Stansted and still been 3 hours earlier. Although probably not as early as off the lowland.

 

[leightonbd]

That's the Classic / Standard breakfast menu. Club / First offering has the cooked Scottish breakfast amongst other (different) options and is included in the price.

Mine host actually admitted they had put out the wrong menu. Not a big deal for me, fortunately.

On the ‘shorter train’ observation - this is based on the fact that I always walk to the front of the train to see the loco, and it seems to take lesss time: plus on platform 1 the loco used to be off the end whereas it now fits comfortably. I may be wrong ...

 

[trebor79]

Of course you could have got one of several other flights from Glasgow to London that arrive before 0900, and made your way to your destination on train via Stansted and still been 3 hours earlier. Although probably not as early as off the lowland.

Shhh. Don't tell the boss! But seriously, it would still involve another night in a hotel and the other flight options are all (I think) more expensive. So the sleeper (just) wins on economic grounds and there's a productivity benefit too.

 

[47271]

Each half set is at least a coach down at the moment because of the mk3s that went for scrap a few months ago. This will be losing them revenue short term on the Inverness section in particular, but we have to assume that this is more than offset by maintenance costs saved.

Frustrating now that we've entered peak season and services are sold out on reduced capacity however.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Each half set is at least a coach down at the moment because of the mk3s that went for scrap a few months ago. This will be losing them revenue short term on the Inverness section in particular, but we have to assume that this is more than offset by maintenance costs saved.

Frustrating now that we've entered peak season and services are sold out on reduced capacity however.

Presumably once the new coaches start on the Lowlander, the Highlander sets will be rejigged.

 

[gingerheid]

Of course you could have got one of several other flights from Glasgow to London that arrive before 0900, and made your way to your destination on train via Stansted and still been 3 hours earlier. Although probably not as early as off the lowland.

The flights that get you a working-ish day in London (ie the early flights to LHR or LCY) tend to have a very similar cost to the first class sleeper.

The slightly later flights (or less convenient airports) tend to have a comparable price to the first daytime train.

 

[trebor79]

Actually I've just looked on Google and the 0700 easyJet on that day (which for some reason wasn't offered on the easyJet website the other day) is only £34.
Still, I'd rather not have to get out of bed sometimes between 4 and 5 in the morning to have the pleasure of removing my shoes and belt at the airport.

Plus there's every chance the train will be delayed and end up costing me precisely nothing!

 

[BRX]

Each half set is at least a coach down at the moment because of the mk3s that went for scrap a few months ago. This will be losing them revenue short term on the Inverness section in particular, but we have to assume that this is more than offset by maintenance costs saved.

Frustrating now that we've entered peak season and services are sold out on reduced capacity however.

The extension of this logic, of course, is to not run the service at all.

I wonder if the franchise agreement says anything about minimum capacity to be provided on each service, and whether they are currently complying with that?

 

[trebor79]

Not really. They were due a major exam, and would then have had only a few weeks service before withdrawal. So the cost of the exam would never have been recouped.

 

[BRX]

Not really. They were due a major exam, and would then have had only a few weeks service before withdrawal. So the cost of the exam would never have been recouped.

However, if the service is subsidised on the basis of providing a certain number of beds per night, and the number of beds per night has been reduced without the subsidy being adjusted accordingly, then that doesn't seem right. The timing of exam dates relative to (delayed) new stock introduction dates should be Serco's problem to deal with.

 

[trebor79]

Perhaps the subsidy doesn't work like that. Or perhaps Serco agreed a variation.

 

[InOban]

Actually I've just looked on Google and the 0700 easyJet on that day (which for some reason wasn't offered on the easyJet website the other day) is only £34.
Still, I'd rather not have to get out of bed sometimes between 4 and 5 in the morning to have the pleasure of removing my shoes and belt at the airport.

Plus there's every chance the train will be delayed and end up costing me precisely nothing!

For future reference, remember that there is a coach every half hour from Buchanan Street bus station to EDI airport. You might chance on a cheap flight from there.

 

[Bald Rick]

The flights that get you a working-ish day in London (ie the early flights to LHR or LCY) tend to have a very similar cost to the first class sleeper.

The slightly later flights (or less convenient airports) tend to have a comparable price to the first daytime train.

Depends where you need to work in London of course. Anywhere near Victoria or London Bridge, and flights to Gatwick begin to look attractive. When the Luton people mover opens, that will also become much more attractive, particularly if you are heading for the Euston Rd area or the west side of the City / legal district.

 

[TimboM]

Each half set is at least a coach down at the moment because of the mk3s that went for scrap a few months ago. This will be losing them revenue short term on the Inverness section in particular, but we have to assume that this is more than offset by maintenance costs saved.

Frustrating now that we've entered peak season and services are sold out on reduced capacity however.

Given all the ones that were scrapped were due major exams and/or repairs costing tens of thousands; plus the on-going lease costs saved it's a very safe assumption that ticket revenue lost in the past couple of weeks now trade has picked up again will have been significantly out-weighed by the savings made. Worth remembering passenger income is the smallest contributor to covering costs on the beds.

Come Sunday Serco will also be in a position to strengthen the Highlander to 16 again, if they so wish. Or the economics might be that it's more cost effective to keep running at Load 14 and off-lease the surplus stock.

1S25 last night was Load 12 if I recall correctly.

 

[TimboM]

However, if the service is subsidised on the basis of providing a certain number of beds per night, and the number of beds per night has been reduced without the subsidy being adjusted accordingly, then that doesn't seem right. The timing of exam dates relative to (delayed) new stock introduction dates should be Serco's problem to deal with.

Apart from perhaps the last couple of weeks the Sleeper was being run at Load 14 just like it has during that period every year, so Serco weren't providing any less of a service/capacity than they would do normally in the off-peak months.

Serco are making a loss of £20-25m per annum, with continuing to run the old stock far longer than expected a major part of that. They've already put coaches through many more exams and repairs they ever intended to - they've dealt with the problem and suffered heavily as a result. The new stock was/is imminent and they were in a position where the logical/reasonable approach was to start making some in-roads to reducing those costs. I suspect if they had spent tens of thousands on coaches to then be almost immediately scrapped they'd have been accused of incompetence etc.

 

[MrEd]

Come Sunday Serco will also be in a position to strengthen the Highlander to 16 again, if they so wish. Or the economics might be that it's more cost effective to keep running at Load 14 and off-lease the surplus stock.

1S25 last night was Load 12 if I recall correctly.

Presumably some of the Mk2 lounge cars and seated coaches (and a good number of Mk3s) will become redundant after this weekend? I wonder what the plan is for those? Will they go off lease straight away or will they be kept as spares? Presumably this might be an opportunity to retire those Mk2/Mk3 vehicles which are in the worst condition?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Presumably some of the Mk2 lounge cars and seated coaches (and a good number of Mk3s) will become redundant after this weekend? I wonder what the plan is for those? Will they go off lease straight away or will they be kept as spares? Presumably this might be an opportunity to retire those Mk2/Mk3 vehicles which are in the worst condition?

One hopes the best ones are kept. It isn't going to work very well if the seated coach can't be used in the middle of summer; people will be annoyed at being dumped in road coaches when they could have booked with Megabus if they'd wanted that at half the price.

 

[MrEd]

Wot no hot breakfast? Hopefully this is ‘transition mode’.
View attachment 62075

Edit: parts of the cabins (hangers) are disappearing and I am sure the train is shorter .. is this a bit like football grounds where fans grab the seats, turnstiles and other mementoes before the ground is demolished?

Those breakfast menu cards seem to be misplaced constantly. I often seem to end up with a standard class breakfast card even when I’m clearly in a first class berth on a first class ticket; apparently standard passengers often find themselves with the first class cards too (and are then none too pleased to be told they need to pay for their breakfast/can’t have the cooked options)! On occasions I’ve even found there to be no card at all in the berth, and have had to track down staff to order my breakfast. What I tend to do is write on the form that I’m travelling first class and write that I want the cooked breakfast. It’s not helpful, though, to passengers who aren’t familiar with the sleeper. Hopefully this is something Cs will be more consistent with when the new stock arrives.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Why can't the Standard class passengers have the cooked options? Are there kitchen capacity issues? You'd think they could make a fair amount of money off flogging them at a premium price.

 

[MrEd]

One hopes the best ones are kept. It isn't going to work very well if the seated coach can't be used in the middle of summer; people will be annoyed at being dumped in road coaches when they could have booked with Megabus if they'd wanted that at half the price.

I hope so too. Some of the Mk2 lounge cars are noticeably more reliable than others, I do find. Unfortunately it seems that on most trips that I make, at least one of the seated coaches in the set is locked out of use. Hopefully the Mk5s will be introduced on the Highlander before the very height of the season.

 

[MrEd]

Why can't the Standard class passengers have the cooked options? Are there kitchen capacity issues? You'd think they could make a fair amount of money off flogging them at a premium price.

They used to be able to until this time last year; as you say, they could pay about £8 for the Highland and £9 for the smoked salmon and scrambled eggs. I wonder if it was something to do with kitchen capacity (bearing in mind that cooked breakfast items for standard class passengers, and First Class who choose to have breakfast in their berths, are prepared in the attendants’ pantries which probably have only one microwave, rather than in the lounge car).

 

[BRX]

Apart from perhaps the last couple of weeks the Sleeper was being run at Load 14 just like it has during that period every year, so Serco weren't providing any less of a service/capacity than they would do normally in the off-peak months.

Serco are making a loss of £20-25m per annum, with continuing to run the old stock far longer than expected a major part of that. They've already put coaches through many more exams and repairs they ever intended to - they've dealt with the problem and suffered heavily as a result. The new stock was/is imminent and they were in a position where the logical/reasonable approach was to start making some in-roads to reducing those costs. I suspect if they had spent tens of thousands on coaches to then be almost immediately scrapped they'd have been accused of incompetence etc.

For sure it's the logical/reasonable approach from serco and their shareholder's point of view - if they can get away with it under the franchise agreement! I do wonder what the agreement has to say about it though. Part of the point of franchising is supposed to be that the franchisee takes on risk as well alongside opportunity for profit. If serco were to have to spend tens of thousands on exams in order to provide the capacity they agreed to, then as I see it that's their problem. I can see that a 'reasonable' approach to the situation might be to allow them to provide less capacity for a few weeks in exchange for a proportionate financial penalty. Maybe the agreement doesn't specify number of beds though.. I'd be curious to know how it does work.

 

[BRX]

Those breakfast menu cards seem to be misplaced constantly. I often seem to end up with a standard class breakfast card even when I’m clearly in a first class berth on a first class ticket; apparently standard passengers often find themselves with the first class cards too (and are then none too pleased to be told they need to pay for their breakfast/can’t have the cooked options)! On occasions I’ve even found there to be no card at all in the berth, and have had to track down staff to order my breakfast. What I tend to do is write on the form that I’m travelling first class and write that I want the cooked breakfast. It’s not helpful, though, to passengers who aren’t familiar with the sleeper. Hopefully this is something Cs will be more consistent with when the new stock arrives.

Last time I travelled, we missed out on breakfast because we boarded and went straight to the lounge car, not reading the small print on the cards that tells you you have to fill them in within an hour of departure or whatever it is. So when we returned to the cabin after dinner, it was too late. Seems a bit of a silly gimmick system to me - if they need the orders soon after boarding then the old system where they asked you at check in was much more sensible. Also, making them look like hotel type cards, to me, strongly suggests you hang them on your door when you go to bed - not that you need to fill them in straight away.

 

[Kite159]

Good start with the Edinburgh seats, one loo is locked out of use and the other has no water.

 

[MrEd]

Last time I travelled, we missed out on breakfast because we boarded and went straight to the lounge car, not reading the small print on the cards that tells you you have to fill them in within an hour of departure or whatever it is. So when we returned to the cabin after dinner, it was too late. Seems a bit of a silly gimmick system to me - if they need the orders soon after boarding then the old system where they asked you at check in was much more sensible. Also, making them look like hotel type cards, to me, strongly suggests you hang them on your door when you go to bed - not that you need to fill them in straight away.

I wish that they still used the old system to be honest- it was much better (and much more personal) checking in with the host who looked after your carriage for the journey, and that was a much more convenient way to order breakfast. Some of the best crews will go so far as to find passengers in the lounge car who haven't filled out their cards, just to check whether they'd like a drink/breakfast (or even just a wake-up call) in the morning before they put the orders in (certainly the Inverness and Fort William based crews have always done this when I've travelled; there are occasions when I myself have forgotten to fill out the card in the rush to bag the table in the lounge). It would probably be more convenient for staff and passengers alike if all this information re: breakfast could be exchanged on check-in, as was the case throughout the First Group era (and under Serco until around this time last year).

 

[TimboM]

Presumably some of the Mk2 lounge cars and seated coaches (and a good number of Mk3s) will become redundant after this weekend? I wonder what the plan is for those? Will they go off lease straight away or will they be kept as spares? Presumably this might be an opportunity to retire those Mk2/Mk3 vehicles which are in the worst condition?

Some of the Mk2s have already been sold (by Serco) and leased back from Eastern Rail Services, so they will have a life after the Sleeper.

I believe Serco still own the remaining Mk2s, so they may keep those hanging around until Mk5s are fully rolled out if they’re not incurring costs. They won’t start repairing / doing exams though.

As before the Mk3s will be off-leased ASAP to reduce operating costs.

Serco are making huge losses - with the Mk5s finally in service they won’t be paying Porterbrook to lease Mk3 coaches “just in case”.

86401 is no longer on hire either, so it’s not just coaches where costs are starting to be reduced as the new stock rolls on.

 

[jagardner1984]

As the Mk5s were supposed to be in service months (years ?) Ago, surely some of the additional costs should be picked up by CAF ?

Given the scale of the losses, and the potential to walk away fairly shortly, I’d imagine Serco would have to be trying pretty hard for the Government to pick them up on a minor contractual anomaly at this point.

 

[BRX]

Is the expectation that the mk5s will be less costly to maintain than the existing stock?

 

[Carntyne]

For sure it's the logical/reasonable approach from serco and their shareholder's point of view - if they can get away with it under the franchise agreement! I do wonder what the agreement has to say about it though. Part of the point of franchising is supposed to be that the franchisee takes on risk as well alongside opportunity for profit. If serco were to have to spend tens of thousands on exams in order to provide the capacity they agreed to, then as I see it that's their problem. I can see that a 'reasonable' approach to the situation might be to allow them to provide less capacity for a few weeks in exchange for a proportionate financial penalty. Maybe the agreement doesn't specify number of beds though.. I'd be curious to know how it does work.

It if wasn't permitted by Transport Scotland then it wouldn't be happening.

 

[Scotrail84]

I wish that they still used the old system to be honest- it was much better (and much more personal) checking in with the host who looked after your carriage for the journey, and that was a much more convenient way to order breakfast. Some of the best crews will go so far as to find passengers in the lounge car who haven't filled out their cards, just to check whether they'd like a drink/breakfast (or even just a wake-up call) in the morning before they put the orders in (certainly the Inverness and Fort William based crews have always done this when I've travelled; there are occasions when I myself have forgotten to fill out the card in the rush to bag the table in the lounge). It would probably be more convenient for staff and passengers alike if all this information re: breakfast could be exchanged on check-in, as was the case throughout the First Group era (and under Serco until around this time last year).

Well seemingly with the new trains you won't be "bagging" a table in the lounge as its supposedly hourly slots at tables for dining or drinks, no more sitting there all night anymore (apparently)